Gamey---What is your definition of it.

[Buzzard45]

Is black the sum of all colors or is it white that is all colors combined?

[AmmoSgt]

Buzzaerd LOL , the glass is half full. But so long as folks keep insisting that a balanced point game is what is " Historically Correct" I will keep annoying folks with History. I'm not trying to pick on anybody or single anybody out, but just to take the most recent example on this thread , as I quoted earlier.

"Simply put, I would say any strategy/tactic/maneuver or unit composition that is 'allowed' by the game, but runs so counter to actual warfare that it would never have happened in rl. My two cents, anyway."

I could just as easily quote from the beginning post on this thread , about "all Panthers" or "Arty firing smoke to block LOS"

There is Historical, or there is balance, There are actual tactics , or there is "fun to play" When folks confuse "Balance" and "Fun/ Playability" and try to call it Historical to make comments like the above quotes it cracks me up. If every German tactical and strategic disaster is some heroic well fought noble endevor led by military Genuis ( that more often than not ended up having to commit suicide) , and every Allied effort in Combat was a bunch of bumbling fools to a goodly number of regular posters here, then I feel it necesary to point out the Allies lost less men killed on D-Day than America lost on 9/11.
Most of the folks who actually know a little History readily admit that Allied tactics and actual force compositions representing the overwhelming Infantry and Artillery nature of most battle in WW2 are not "fun" to play. Most Folks who try to use represenative ground densities and frontages within the limits of the maps in SPWAW say it is boring.
I am all for overlooking the faults of the game , because it is a darn good game , playing it , trying to improve it . But I am dead set against folks forgeting the basic shortcomings and then going on to try and make some PC mindset "clik" rules to beat folks over the head with when they don't play thier side of the map the way the "Tiger kiddies" want them too.
Gamey is thinking there is a 10% Limit on arty , and that 6000 points fit on a 60 hex map . Gamey is setting up to rush the Vhexes. Gamey is buying a BN sized force that has two of everything on the buy list , like you are in charge of loading Cats on Noah's Ark. Gamey is thinking "too much " recon is a sin. Gamey is thinking you should have a say in what the other guy buys. I mostly concern myself with some of the little PC Tyranies that folks think make for a "Fun" ( for them) PBEM. But I could just as easily point out how few Secnarios have a US FO for example. I get the fact that most players want to play with tanks and like the mobility and fire power and shoot'em up of tanks , what I don't get is why they want to fight a Bn sized Tank force in the area of a Mall parking lot.
If what you want is balance and playability thats fine , but please, just be honest, and justify the distortions , the dumbing downs , the inflated ratings , on the grounds of Fun and playability. Using History to try and justify some of the stuff in SPWAW that is the most popular with the Tiger kitties just won't work with honest and knowledgeable people. You want to justify it with balance and playability and admit it is totally ahistorical , then I got no problem with that.
Tommorow is Veteran's Day , Real Heros, Using real tactics, fought and died so the world would be free of the unimaginable horror and nightmare that was Germany and Japan ( and kicked their butt 9 ways from Sunday). How about we skip the BS Nazi superiority myth stuff just long enough to pay respect to real Heros.

[Buzzard45]

Tommorow is Veteran's Day , Real Heros, Using real tactics, fought and died so the world would be free of the unimaginable horror and nightmare that was Germany and Japan........... pay respect to real Heros.

In Canada, we ALL wear a poppie up to and on Remembrance Day and the country stops (in its respective time zones) for 1 minute at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month to remember and pay respect to all who have fallen and served in the defense of their country. It is fitting that, as children we learn the poem "In Flanders Fields" and also engrave it on our ten dollar bill so that we shall never forget.

As for the game. I agree, it is not real life. Put me on the side for fun and playability. If you have a way of making it more playable than a consensus of dozens of experienced players, I'm sure we'd all like to know. However, the point of this thread, as I understand it, is to make it more enjoyable for more people. It is saying, "this is what we have learned through experience makes for an interesting game. It doesn't exactly mimic real life. If it did, it would not be a game and it would not be fun. Let's try playing it this way. They are not hard fast rules but a method grown through experience. Should you like to change these restrictions then let's negotiate."

I am for the restrictions and the "Rules of Engagement" because I have played the alternative. Some of which were fun but played once were often enough. It is a method of simple communications not be confused with historical facts.

BTW I guess that I deserved the "Buzzeard" for the mis-spelling of AmmoSgt. You are an intelligent and learned person AmmoSgt. Your comments and opinions are part of what makes this forum great and interesting. That being said, now go F**k yourself and let us get on with the game. :p :p

[AmmoSgt]

"That being said, now go F**k yourself and let us get on with the game."
Promises Promises

[Buzzard45]

"That being said, now go F**k yourself and let us get on with the game."
Promises Promises

ROTFLMAO.. I thought you'd like that.

[KG Erwin]

...as I've mentioned in playing USMC long campaigns. If you go historical, you generally get historical results. I model my guys on a fairly realistic Combat Team in 1942 with a Marine infantry battalion of three companies as the base. I add regimental and divisionial assets such as a complete tank company (all M2A4s), a couple of 37mm ATG, a couple of SP 75s, three recon team groups, four 81mm mortars and the equivalent of a Raider company (without heavy weapons), plus some engineers. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I add historical designations and even change commander names to match real ones of the era, when I can find them. Now, I've done the same for the Germans in 1939, modeling my Kampfgruppe on the Panzer Verband Kempf which mixed Heer & SS units, but once again, the TOE info is there, if anyone cares to do the research. The bottom line is, you get out of the game only what you're prepared to put into it. Unfortunately, with an open-ended game like SPWaW, the potential for "gaminess" in force structure is built-in, so when playing humans the temptation to go with the best toys is just unavoidable.

[KG Erwin]

I started a campaign in August 42, and in my two "advance" missions, the best I've gotten against the AI so far is a draw. The AI is much maligned in this game, but I never tire of playing against the Japanese AI opponent. He is tough on the attack, and extremely difficult to dislodge on the defense. In 1942, my squads are often outnumbered 2-1, and it's easy for me to understand why the Marines shifted to a 12-man squad beginning in 1943, and finally gave them M1s. As the new OOBs are tweaked further, it is possible to get a well-balanced game playing against the computer. I dunno, maybe I'm just a lame player, but unless I'm playing a defend or delay mission, I'm still challenged by the random missions, even after nearly 4 years of playing this. Now, if anyone wants to challenge this notion, just wait until MCSE is released. Heh heh heh. The scenario designers used every devious trick they could come up with to make this a realistic but maddening group of situations you will will have to face. I didn't mean this post as a promo, sorry 'bout that. The point is, the AI is competent if you stay within historical parameters and keep rarity "OFF". This is an important point. Alright, I'll shut up now.

[Wild Bill]

To my thinking, in a two player situation, you both should agree on the limits of your "gaminess." Have an understanding as to what units will be used.

If you are playing solitaire, you're on your own. The AI is pretty crafty, however, on some occasions. You may think you are buying the right thing and mess up...big time!

You want history or just a shoot-em up? Your call

WB