So What Do You Think of SPWaW v5.3

BruceAZ · Post by **BruceAZ** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:22 am

Originally posted by Tombstone:
5.3 rules... I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

Tomo

Ditto

snowman · Post by **snowman** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:35 am

Originally posted by David Heath:
Hi Guys

We are hard at work with Combat Leader and we want your input on what you think of v5.3 Thanks for your time.

I haven't even gotten the version I ordered back in May. Sure wish I could tell you what I thought of it.

Mike

Elvis · Post by **Elvis** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:15 am

So far, no major complaints...

David boutwell · Post by **David boutwell** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:29 am

If I could play the game at all, I could tell you.....

David Boutwell

Uglykid · Post by **Uglykid** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:32 am

First i thougth that damn this is too hard, then i read this topic and started think about it. Went back to play and voila I liked it more than ever! I think that 5.3 is verygood or maybe best

!

WeyBug · Post by **WeyBug** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 9:40 am

First, thanks to everyone at Matrix for a great game.
I have been playing 5.3 for a couple of days now. Very impressed. I hvae seen one odd trend that has been mentioned here. Crews seem very powerful.

I would think that when a few guys get there big afv shot out from under them, they might be a bit stunned or timid even. That has not been my experience. In one scenario(1941 Brit vs. Italian) I knocked out an IT tank with an ATR at range two. For two turns the ATR at range 2 and 3-4 squads at ranges 5-10 blazed away at this crew. He(one man crew) proceeded to wipe out the ATR and then advance towards VP hxes. In the same fight 2 Brit Sapper Secs and 1 Brit Rifle Section fired every shot available(around 6) at a crew 2 hexes from all of them and failed to score a single kill.

Have others seen similar events? Do crews need to be "dialed down"?

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:47 am

Korea is in the works right now, Chris. Keep watching. Remember, we don't have North Koreans, so we'll have to use Communist Chinese mixed with Russian tanks.

But it will work

..Wild Bill

troopie · Post by **troopie** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 4:12 pm

Crews aren't born with a yellow stripe, and shouldn't be modeled so. But they aren't infantrymen either. Yes. vehicle and gun crews got the same basic training as everyone else, but they went on to something else. They will remember how to shoot their weapons, but not with any great efficiency. It is no more reasonable to expect a tank crew to act as high quality infantry, than it is reasonable to pick men out of a rifle section and have them crew a gun. Yes, they will be able to puzzle it out in time. Yes, they may be able to perform. But they won't be very good at it.

Yes, Guderian occasionally used tank crews as infantry. Clerks, cooks, and doctors have fought as infantry also. But not with the same efficacy as infantry, because they are not infantry.

troopie

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 5:44 pm

Well, I've played 5.3 for about 12 hours now (its just as addictive as earlier versions) and I have some comments and concerns:

I've noticed lots of bug fixes and small improvements (EG, the dust trails, staying on the original target when hitting 'T' etc.) and I do appreciate them.

Like others, I'm having trouble coming to grips with the new infantry toughness. I'm currently playing the Stalingrad Campaign. Last turn I fired at a Russian Rifle Platoon more than a 20 times with my own Rifle and Engineer squads at 1 and 2 hex range, the to-hit percentatages ranged from 20+ to 80+ %, and I only caused 2 casualties! I realize that the stated percent is not totally accurate, but this seems way out of whack.

I'm concerned that with the new infantry toughness, it will take too long to dig enemy infantry out of defensive positions, thus making it hard to atain vicory conditions in the time alloted. You can't just bypass them when they're dug in on the victory hexes!

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:10 pm

And crews have been hobble about 5 different ways compared to regular infantry...If you are behind a wall or in a hole, bullets don;t know if you are a crew or infantry.

Crews are slower, can't shoot as straight, are more scared of enemy tanks, and a couple other things I can;t rember, about the only left is to have them just ran for lives off teh board the minute they abandon there vehicle...

Of then then we would see a chorus of "how come I can't reman my vehicle" Crews won't stand up to regular infantry, but if you insist on executing every enemy soldier, they are just as hard to kill as any other grunt.

We are aware of the concerns over the new combat and existing scenarios.

The best way to help us out on this is to report your score in infantry heavy, time constrained scenarios and how you think the new routines have affected them.

in a few weeks if there are still serious concerns over the playability of some older scenarios we can talk about extending turns, and tweaking the combat a little more, but the real fix will be in COmbat Leader, so for the next several weeks we will be concentrating on that.

There is also work on OOBs going on so if there is an adjustment that you think helps balance it out there let folks know on teh OOB forum.

Trying to get convergence between the OOBs, The scenarios and the engine requires a lot of time and if you players simply report in results and impressions, it will help immensely. We can work on CL and you can help with the final tweak.

Panzer Leo · Post by **Panzer Leo** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 9:27 pm

Last turn I fired at a Russian Rifle Platoon more than a 20 times with my own Rifle and Engineer squads at 1 and 2 hex range, the to-hit percentatages ranged from 20+ to 80+ %, and I only caused 2 casualties!

Hmmm !!! Maybe you should send your officers back to tactical training center...when they had listen to their teachers in the first, they would know, that no matter how often you shoot at something, you cannot hit it, when you don't have a direct line of fire (for rifles of course). So when a bunch of soldiers hides behind some walls or whatever, it does not matter if you shoot 10 or 30 times - they will keep their heads down

But here's German infantry doctrine from now (didn't change since 1945):
One third of the platoon (with as much MGs as possible) puts a lot of bullets on the target, directed by a sergeant. The other two thirds, lead by the officer, STORM the enemy positions from the side (if possible), entering in close combat and trenchfighting. The sergeant of the support troop will stop firing as soon as the officer signals he's about to enter the entrenchments.
So if you don't move your troops the last one or two hexes up to the enemy, you'll never get 'em...and that's the way it is

Mark Ezra · Post by **Mark Ezra** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:12 pm

I just finished testing a scen that ended up with a number of crew v inf or armor fights. I noticed no super crews. A couple of crews never had a capability to fire weapons, others did but with limited sucess. My view is crews seem to act like crews, some come out of their vehicles dazed and confused, others have a bit of fight in them, but most are interested in self preservation.

krull · Post by **krull** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:33 pm

I like 5.3 . Only super crews i have seen have been high experinced ones. Plus Seen nice difference in elevation and cover. if My infantrys in open i been getting murdered by those pesky marines. Japanese infantry troops are now alot better and not just cannon fodder vs Marine troops. Same with Marines finaly an elite infantry setup and not just a bunch of blade shermans

I like it very much

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:51 pm

THe hit % for soft targets ar the the chances that you effctively engage the target, other wise your shooting just causes more suppression. SO 99% hit chances against entrenched troops just mean that you are 99% sure that you have a chance to kill...you still have to see what the effect is.

Its like the hit roll against tanks, an ATR might have 99% hit chance against a Tiger, but it will not kill it, similar for men heavily suppressd in good cover.

MalleusDei · Post by **MalleusDei** » Fri Jun 29, 2001 11:02 pm

>Clerks, cooks, and doctors have fought as
>infantry also. But not with the same
>efficacy as infantry, because they are not
>infantry.

Two-thirds untrue. US Marine clerks and cooks have indeed fought with distinction as infantry when needed and have kicked ass. All Marines - cooks, clerks, tankers, you name it - are riflemen first, last, and foremost.

But you are right on one count, but that's only because the USMC doesn't have its own doctors.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Sat Jun 30, 2001 12:02 am

On occasions support personnel of all services have performed wonders as emergency infantry. However, this is not their primary function and their performance can be expected to reflect that.

Rommel had a fine voice intercept unit in NA, until some clever local commander chose to throw them into the line in an emergency. They fought bravely and died performing a task that was not the one they were primarily trained for. Of course, afterwards Rommels intell was crap.

I'm sure Marine cooks, clerks and other rear-echelon life forms have kicked butt on occasion - partly because the USMC is willing to pay the costs of maintaining their combat skills at a higher level than most organizations - but I'll bet the local commanders would have prefered combat infantry and I'll bet the casualties were higher than necessary.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Sat Jun 30, 2001 3:02 pm

Well, I did a few firing range tests and didn't really notice any difference in HE effectiveness. I guess the modifications were only to infantry vs infantry situations. So no complaints from me!

Kluckenbill · Post by **Kluckenbill** » Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:25 pm

Since it seems to me that Infantry is way too hard to kill, I kept track of a recent fight. I'm playing the Stalingrad Campaign. I set Infantry toughness at 90%, hoping to at least have some chance of inflicting casualties. In this example I attacked a Russian Rifle squad of 9 men, in woods, I suppose dug in. These guys had been softened up with 3 turns of artillery prep by 81mm Mortars and 105mm Howitzers.

I shot a total of 45 times, 13 times from the same hex and 32 times at 1 hex range. The russians were surrounded on all 6 sides as well as having 2 German rifle squads in their hex. I fired with my HQ, 2 rifle squads, and one Engineer squad and 6 Half Tracks. I caused 3 casualties.

The Russians are no more effective against my infantry than I am against theirs. I'm not concerned with play balance, its just too darn hard to kill these grunts, it takes a lot of fun out of the game to spend 1/2 hour shooting at the same unit with no effect!

I'll keep lowering the Infantry toughness setting until the game seems playable to me. Here's what I'd like to know:

Is it just me? Do you other players find this level of difficulty acceptable? Didn't this come up in play testing?

And I have deleted my old Steel.prf

BigDuke66 · Post by **BigDuke66** » Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:15 pm

I just finished my first Scenario with 5.3 and I really like it but I still think that some things should be reworked.

-Higher kill ratio for Infantry fire on short ranges.
Why? Because I tryed to kill a russian MMG that stood in an clear hex with NO COVER, me right beside him in an Stone Building and I was shooting like Arni in his best days but didn't hit anything

. Maybe it's just my stupid Opinion but to kill the russians should have been as easy as making a Sandwich, or not

?

-Much more casualities in Melee Combat.
Why? Because I tryed to kill a Sniper, I shoot at him multiple times and hit nothing ok fast guy with good cover and good camouflage, ok ok hard to hit I told myself. But then I was in the same hex with him and startet Melee Combat also mutiple times with also NO Result. No thats not funny

, I mean how hard can it be to kill one man in Melee Combat when he is visible, maximal 50 Meters away, has nothing really usefull for Melee Combat and 10 Germans a storming in on him???
What did he do in that small hex? Started running in circles till he kicked the last him following Soldier in the ass?
I would have understood if he retreaded out of the hex but not that he survies Melee, stays in the same hex and starts his turn with killing 2 or 3 of my Soldiers.

-Unit Size Modifier
I'm not sure how much differnce is in the Combat routine btween big units with about 20 Men and small units like crews with 2 or 3 Men, but I have the feeling that the difference is also too big. OK hit 1 out of 20 sounds easier then hit one out of 2.
I had the feeling that it is much more difficult to kill small units like Partisans instead of killing on from a normal Russian Infantry Unit.

Now some Details from the Scenario I played:
Karnev Bridgehead
Casualities:
Men: 164 to 221
Art.: 1 to 0
APCs: 2 to 0
AFVs: 8 to 19
Points: 2743 to 2507
DRAW

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:24 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
[QB]And crews have been hobble about 5 different ways compared to regular infantry...If you are behind a wall or in a hole, bullets don;t know if you are a crew or infantry.

Crews are slower, can't shoot as straight, are more scared of enemy tanks, and a couple other things I can;t rember, about the only left is to have them just ran for lives off teh board the minute they abandon there vehicle...

Of then then we would see a chorus of "how come I can't reman my vehicle" Crews won't stand up to regular infantry, but if you insist on executing every enemy soldier, they are just as hard to kill as any other grunt.

QB]

If only that last single crewman would die!!
hehheh, that last man seems invincible