SPWAW defects

[hobbit]

I understand that SPWAW will not be supported in light of Combat leader but wanted to point out my observations of SPWAW issues in hopes they are not repeated in the upcoming game.

1. Bombardments either artillery or by planes do not affect troops in transports. Evidently the thin canvas covering the trailer of a truck
creates an impenetrable barrier. Better outfit the tanks with canvas instead of steel.
2. Troops riding on an AFV are not affected by bombardments either artillery or by planes. Guess riding high on an AFV misses all that low flying shrapnel.
Now I thought shrapnel went high not low.
3. A scout unit moving 1 hex into a hedgerow can easily be seen by enemy units 200 yards (5 hexes) away. Maybe it's the scout's frantic pace of going 9mph into
the hedgerow. I wonder how they run through all those thickets.
4. A scout unit moving 1 hex into a building with an adjacent hedgerow hex to the enemy can be seen by easily seen by enemy units 10 hexes away. Scouts when
faced with this task will move up to the roof of the building and flag down the enemy. Stupid scout behavior.
5. Meeting engagements are really not meeting engagements. They are ambushes in disguise. An enemy army can deploy artillery areas just like an other game setup.
Also there are strict deploy lines so paratroopers can be deployed exactly just beyond the reach of an enemy army.
Surprise what does that mean?
6. 1 mortar unit can deploy more smoke than a battalion of off board arty in 1 turn. Keep hitting the X key on the mortar unit and you can deploy all the smoke
that unit has to visible areas of the mortar unit.
7. Why are FOs needed? A 0 leader unit of any mortar formation can call in arty faster than any FO could dream of doing. Then again why have tanks when mortars
can nullify tanks either by suppression or by down the hatch destruction.
8. In meeting engagements make sure to NOT do any form of blitzkrieg. If you mass your units close together and send them forward for concentrated fire affect and
rapid movement this will not happen. Just because this tactic worked for GE in WW2 means nothing. They just got lucky. In SPWAW this makes your units ripe
for enemy arty attacks. Artillery can be called in so fast that it doesn't matter if tanks are moving at 30mph per turn they can be drilled at then end of the
enemies turn.

Then again why attack in a meeting engagement? You overextend and there really is no point.
Keep in mind this is considering there is no good way to setup VHs. When VHs are grouped the game turns into a mad dash. When spread out there is no reward for
offense. I hate games that are decided on the last turn when an enemy unit steps on a high point VH and get wiped out but
before it dies its last act claimed the hex. Silliness. What is a happy medium of VH hex placement? I have yet to figure it out for meeting engagements.

9. Make sure to move your scout vehicles out in the open keep the speed up to around 40mph to make them hard to hit. Then turn off the engine
of the scout car when your turn is done so you got to start it up at 0mph on your next turn to make yourself an easy to hit target. Yippee another
scout car destroyed due to enemy opp fire. Maybe I'll figure out where that AT gun is with the next scout car.
10. In meeting engagements it is best to fake advancement that doing any serious attack. Show your AFV units for 1 turn then retreat them. This
is really good play considering all the SPWAW flaws. This behavior is kinda silly in reality especially when there is no enemy sighted in the vicinity.
11. When a unit is 3 hexes away from its 0 leader and is in line of sight it is can become out of contact. Being 150 yards away on road hexes creates
too much confusion.
12. Smoke is the impenetrable shield and also makes any gun barrel inoperable. Smoke lasts for 5-6 turns approx. 15 to 18 minutes in game time and
stops any unit from firing blind into the smoke. Smoke is said to be dependent upon weather but 18 minutes just is too long even in nice weather.
13. A moving bazooka unit can easily detect a special op squad unmoved in 4 turns. Also they can make them route with the first shot without any
fear of retaliation.
14. 20 paratrooper units can disappear in 1 turn. Within 3 minutes all the paratroopers land synchronously and are able to fold up their gear.
Paratroopers are super speed devils as they can move faster than the DC comics' Flash.
15. A jeep can move a SO 57mm AT gun around at 45mph. It can even load all that ammo for the AT gun. Imagine 60 rounds of ammo in the jeep plus hauling the gun crew
and gun. I wonder why jeeps never were used for mass troop transport if they can do all that. The GE army engineers must be shot for their conservative thinking
as their jeeps don't perform like that. No wonder GE lost the war they kept their thinking in reality!
16. An out of contact unit can inform other units of enemies that it can see and direct fire to the seen enemy unit.
17. Once a unit has target lock on an enemy unit it can fire till the end of the game on that unit no matter
if that unit is no longer visible. Beware breaking target lock because you won't be able to switch back if that unit is no longer visible.
18. Tanks when going in reverse must first expose their rear end to the enemy.
19. 5 points difference in leadership abilities is misleading. GE units in 44 if shot at will route 90% of the time and be unmovable.
5% difference between GE in 43 and GE in 44 really means a 50% difference. Programmers always bumble that decimal point.
20. If a MMG gun jams on the first shot attempt at turn 1 make sure the gun will never work in the game no matter if the game is 45 turns long.
21. For offboard arty guns it is recommended to shoot at targets <50 hexes away to keep the impact radius reasonable.
keep in mind when deciding to shoot either 50 hexes or 80 hexes away the 30 hex difference (maybe a mile difference) really
drags the arty rounds down making them hit shallow and randomly in a huge radius. 75mm rounds are usually plagued with this problem
of not being able to reach targets across the map.
22. In an IGUG game what benefit is there of being the 2nd player? Keeping in mind VHs in #8.
23. Make sure that the 2nd player never sees arty or plane strikes by his army plotted on turn 0.

[Katana]

Maybe you should try a different game.

[Capt Chris]

Guess he doesn't like the game.

[chief]

Hobbit: First what version of SPwaw are you using ?
Second are you heavy into CC ?

I will only respond to those problems that I have personal contact with.

1. I just had a truck hit by 81mm mortar 12 persons on board 8 survived plus 2 crew. Truck destroyed. I must of had bad canvas
or rolled back.

2. 4 men on a lite tank, jap rifle squad, range 1 hex, japs fire first 3 dead marines,

3. Agree with you on this one

4. Agree again (well your 2 for two so far)

5. N/C

6. Never tried that, sounds good to me if I really get in a retreat situation.

7. Isn't this a CC problem ?

8. N/C

9. Agree (your ahead by 1)

10.Don't quite follow this one so it may be valid (1/2 pt)

11.CC again ?

12. Not so i was shooting japanese troops in (fresh) smoke last night, with no problems.

13. Agree (still up 1 1/2 to 0)

14. What gave you the idea that anyone saw those trooopers land ? Were any troops (foe) in area ? Can't give you that one.

15. Never was able to try that one but I will concur that it is rediculous. UNLESS....we have been led to believe that what we call a Jeep is not the true jeep its really a PEEP. The Jeep was in reality a version much larger, looks a lot like the Scout Car (im sorry I don't know all the designations). As I say the true JEEP would do just what you said and its quite possible that someone put in the correct specs for this baby. (maybe by accident). I'm gonna take 1/2 pt on this one, even now.

16. Runners maybe ????

17. Agree (your one up again)

18. This has been gone over time and time again. To quote the wheels "Its a limit of the game engine"

19. N/C

20. When I manually rally troops I fine some Jammed weapons do clear up. I always manually rally.

21. This why requires a question....why not ?

22. Looks like your correct again.

23. Is this with CC on and fast artillery on ?

I don't know whether I got a DRAW, MOD VIC, or loss but my comments on the subject.

[hobbit]

Here are some other things I've notice over many games of play. To those comments about me switching to another game or not liking this one, keep in mind the details of this information are not coming from someone with a limited knowledge of the game. Many fun filled hours and sleepless nights made possible these observations.



A. A AFV can go thru a hedgerow. A AFV can go thru trees. A heavy truck can go thru trees. Combine a hedgerow and trees and what do you have
a hedgerow that cannot be destroyed. Neither 150mm arty rounds nor heavy vehicles like a Ferdinand can remove the hedgerow hex. I
thought spider webs were the strongest thing in nature. Heck no, combine them their hedgerows with a few tree branches and you got
a super tough material. Where does this do to logistics of support vehicles, heavy trucks an such, either they unload or reroute.
There goes any organized plan.

B. A scout vehicle unit has waypoints but waypoints are meaningless for scout vehicles. They can be circumvented easily by a simple double click.
It is reasonable to allow scout vehicles greater freedom of movement than other units but why does this not apply to scout infantry?
Surely humping around on foot is more flexible than roaming around on a vehicle.

C. When an enemy AFV stumbles into an entrenched infantry unit the infantry unit will opt to do an assault instead of using any equipped AT weapon.
Imagine this. "Ya, Franz lets use these small grenades we have on that T34 instead of using this new
fangled weapon we have. What do they call this thing again a Panzerfaust 100?"

D. Why when you shoot consecutively at an infantry unit does the % to hit increase? The first shot has the highest probability to do any damage. After that the
enemy infantry unit will almost always hit the deck making it very difficult to inflict damage. The UI (user interface) displays a bogus
% to entice volume of fire.

E. Security on an email game equals no security. Simply copy and paste over the email files if a turn goes bad. If you forget a password
on a game...sorry Charley that game is forever in limbo.

F. Enemy off board artillery fire is reeking havoc on your army. You have an even greater arty presence. You smile reassuringly. Then you enter the
world of SPWAW. What do you mean I cannot dedicate artillery batteries to counter battery fire? Then
again why counter battery fire? Its effect is worthless. I hate it when I have 150mm+ guns wasting ammo on counter battery fire.

G. You have 3 infantry platoons take a hill. The enemy sees this ands starts a bombardment of 75mm and 105mm on the position. At first the
damage is minor to your squads 1 or 2 casualties. Be warned, however, if your infantry do not rally to get out of the bombardment within 4-6 turns
of artillery your infantry units will start disappearing entire squads at a time even those at 100%. I've seen this happen frequently
when bombardment is consecutive and then why wouldn't artillery ever not be consecutive on a position? My guess is that the infantry units stand up
then hit the deck per turn. Imagine the NCO barking out these orders: ok men its over stand up, oh no here it comes again hit the deck,
ok men its over stand up, oh no here it comes again hit the deck. Stalin should have purged those NCOs too for their short-term memory deficits.

[chief]

Hobbit did you ever research why the AFVs and such go through Hedgerows so easily.....if you had gone back far enough (in this forum) you would have found that because people complained about breakdowns so much that Matrix complied with their wishes, now you want them to reverse again, h**l this can go on forever. Remember they (Matrix) can't please all 5000 plus gammers here. If you really want those conditions may I Please reccomend 5.3 version or maybe 6.1 I believe either will do what you want.

[MacCready]

Nice point Chief,You may play any version you like and modify it accordingly.

I'm too busy playing three different modern battles to play any spWAW right now.

1)Steel Panthers 3 1.1 Modified French(me) vs N. Vietnam 1953
2)Steel Panthers 3 1.1 Moderna Pakistan(me) vs India 1998
3)Steel Panthers MBT 1.01 Great Britain(me) vs Sweden 2002

[hobbit]

Chief thanks for the feedback and running tally.

The version of SPWAW I'm using is 7.1. Yes, CC is turned on.

Items #1 and #2 let me clarify. If a bombard directly hits the vehicle the riding infantry units will take damage. You’re correct.
Most time artillery never directly hits but does a lot of near misses. Near misses with arty rounds almost pack as much
punch as direct hits,. Large rounds like 90mm+ also affect nearby adjacent hexes. Situation: if 10 150mm arty rounds
strike the same hex without directly hitting a loaded transport in that hex the troops in the transport
will take no damage. If those same troops were unloaded from the transport they would be blasted to oblivion.
I hope this clarifies #1 and #2.

#7 is mostly a CC probably but I don't play with CC off. My main issue is I find artillery too fast on target.

#12. Yes you can shoot into smoke but the defender cannot shoot out of it not even blindly. If a onboard arty unit is firing at
a hex and then gets smoked the gun is still correctly position to fire at the same hex even if smoke is clouding things up.

#14. Forward deployed scouts saw them deploy and land. Within 1 turn all the paratroopers disappeared.
Maybe the GE forces were never issued binoculars.

#15 With a large map around 3 miles in width and offboard artillery positioned 2 miles behind the front, I question
why any offboard artillery piece would be unable to hit any section of a map. A today’s 155 howitzer can shoot 17 miles,
surely yesterdays GE 75mm and 150mm guns can shoot 1/3 that distance.

#23 Fast arty off. CC on yes.



My item A on hedgerows is in agreement with you. Here is the situation to put in context. I have 20 some AFV in an area mixed
with infantry and support vehicles. A hedgerow needs to be crossed. 15 AFV go through the hedgerow with no problem. Then I find out that
the hedgerow is still up not flattened. I was surprised it didn't flattened when I drove the AFV through it.
Now my heavy and medium trucks are stuck on the other side. I then bombarded the hex with 150mm arty to try and open a passageway.
No luck. A hedgerow with a forest hex is immune to destruction. Eeek. I can imagine
my soldiers all looking perplexed at this regenerating stubborn hedgerow.

[chief]

Hobbit: First ley me tell you that I am not a guru of SPWAW or do I work for them. I am a gammer just like yourself and these are only my wild armed guesses.

1/2.I now see your point about near misses, point cleared.

7.If I read part about art too fast on target does that mean when you play with cc OFF do you also have fast art off.

12. If a weapon is aimed at a target and the target (in the real world) gets hit with smoke/he/or a/c the actual target maybe impossible to see but the coordinates are still there at the battery and shells continue to fall on said target/hex. Case in point, you recieve firing from hex X, "YOU SEE NUTTIN" (sorry I couln't pass that up)yet you can Z fire into that hex, you can also do same in smoked hex.

14. Troopers land in a small open field, big big targets, If I was a trooper I'd take those 5 minutes (~turn length)and haul my little butt into the first piece of cover. PS I learnt that in Escape and Evasion course and I found you can find a hiding place pretty fast.

15. I understand that the artillery specs were tweaked down in the later version because with artillery the way it was earlier made it too strong and all anyone had to do was purchase a lot artillery and then control the game entirely. You can upgrade your artillery in the preferences.

23. Can't answer that or discuss, never use cc

Hedgerows after seeing them in France firsthand. Picture a sunken road with a tangle of trees, brush, vines and grass/weeds, this tangle can be as high as a mans shoulder depending on the age of the road, some are lower some higher.
Now take a TRACKED Vehicle and you may/can plow through this entanglement, yes you'll open a gap in it also. Now take a truck up a nearly vertical wall 3/4 feet high and try to drive up through
the same gap, it won't happen believe me. Now I assume the game takes this into play and won't allow wheeled vehicles to pass. In older versions you'd even get tracked vehicles immobilized on walls and hedges.

Reference number nine (9) your original statement about stop and go scout cars, I can now verify this happens (it happened to me tonight). Now I know why and I'll try to explain. If you move any vehicle/personnel/or A/c into a situation where your opponent can OP-Fire the unit will pause then move on to where you wanted it to go, if along the way it again gets into the same situation it'll stop and go just like you described it. It does this with all moving items. In the real world the target would continue to move and we would shoot at it aslong as we could or had ammo to do so, range etc. Unfortunately this ain't the real world and in order to shoot at any target it (SPwaw)must stop. try moving a tank past a weapon North to South for instance, with complete LOS and see how often it stops and goes.

Well now you've got my 4 cents.

[G_X]

Ehhh....

Sorry, but let me remind everyone it ~is~ just a game.

Having said that...I agree on most points, except the CC ones. I don't like CC in 7.1, it might "accurately" convince me of how pissed off I'd get if I was a Battallion Commander in WWII, but I don't think it makes it more fun, which is why I play the game.

I don't like having it be so inflexible. I know this has to do with the fact that you're not supposed to be able to Micro manage, but this is what I see C2 doing, if it worked the way I wanted it.

I, as the A0 unit, (Pronounced A-Oh) can move freely wherever the fark I want.

Any unit within hearing/close visual range can move wherever the Fark I want.

BUT! With C2 on, I only get to move Platoon/Section HQs. As I move the Platoon/Section HQ's, the Rest of the Platoon forms up near the HQ. If a Platoon/Section HQ is out of reach from me, they stop, and wait till their Radio starts working again, or the Messenger Pigeon returns with Orders.

If they're Order to Advance, they do so, if they become out of contact from a Unit with a radio (5 hex distance, Order-relaying :p) then there's not **** I can do if they keep advancing and miss the order to stop.

This would be incentive to keep Radio units nearby, or at least a unit with a radio (FO's for example, or Comms buggies). Then the Platoon HQ's nearby that FO/Comms Buggy would want to keep it alive, so they could hear the evening BBC/Wehrmacht Report, as well as my orders.

Now, I know that would basically mean rebuilding WaW, but it is a neat idea huh? Just one of the ways WaW could be redone, but CL is apparently going to work pretty closely to 7.1 which is fine by me.

[Penetrator]

Originally posted by G_X

Sorry, but let me remind everyone it ~is~ just a game.

It sodding is not!


Anyway, bitching is good. This game would not be as good as it is without all those bitches bitching all the time.

[G_X]

Sorry, I meant to imply that these problems, if they occured frequently in a manner that severely impeded game-play...Would be problems, though, I have yet to have a severe problem with it. It was also meant to remind everyone it's based on limited, and might I add aging, game engine.

Just my two Cents (Again)

[Svennemir]

Well, that's a lot of problems, and I can confirm most of them. But in my opinion only few of these are actually serious.

If there *were* to be future improvements of SPWAW, the most important issue would clearly be the artillery delays (right?). It gives no sense that a player can end his turn and immediately the shells fall. If we compare to SPWW2 (or rather SPMBT since I'm not very well into SPWW2), the shells start falling only at end of the enemy turn, even though delay is 0.1. While 0.1 delay might mathematically be closer to end-of-your-own-turn, the game flow suffers heavily.

Also the artillery delays should be much greater, this is also modelled better in SPWW2.

The second 'big' problem is the Smoke. I even find battles in the open plains to end up in 1-2-3 hex range fights because of smoke duration and artillery delays combined.

Those two errors are very serious since they affect the game FLOW considerably.

Also I think there is a slight imbalance after the "splash damage fix" since HE KILLs and WARHEAD values are designed to be handled differently than is now the case, but much of this can be adjusted with the 'preferences' sliders.

The others errors are minor ones - infantry in LOADED status don't get suppression, but if their transport is suppressed they won't be able to unload - stuff like that.

I still think SPWAW is the best of its genre, however. SPWW2 is also excellent and in some ways better, but when CL comes out I guess it should blow most other titles away... somewhat .

[Galka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hobbit



A. A AFV can go thru a hedgerow. A AFV can go thru trees. A heavy truck can go thru trees. Combine a hedgerow and trees and what do you have

>>Answer: An inpenetrable hex?



C. When an enemy AFV stumbles into an entrenched infantry unit the infantry unit will opt to do an assault instead of using any equipped AT weapon.

>>Great point. even if it's your firts turn and the freakin Tiger in on your lap, you must assault at say 12%, instead of taking it with the anit-tank mine you're saving for an important occasion


E. Security on an email game equals no security. Simply copy and paste over the email files if a turn goes bad. If you forget a password
on a game...sorry Charley that game is forever in limbo.

>>Play with a "buddy"


F. Enemy off board artillery fire is reeking havoc on your army. You have an even greater arty presence. You smile reassuringly. Then you enter the
world of SPWAW. What do you mean I cannot dedicate artillery batteries to counter battery fire?

>>Can't you accomplish this by not firing during a turn?

Then
again why counter battery fire? Its effect is worthless. I hate it when I have 150mm+ guns wasting ammo on counter battery fire.

>>But you can tell how many casualties were inflicted at 20 clicks!

[G_X]

Well, the Arty delay in SPMBT is in fact too long. Especially if you play modern day, with SPA. It takes a M109 less than 20 seconds to get online, on target, with a shell loaded, and fire the first round, from a radio call from a FO in the field.

That's .001, during my turn, if I were to call it, it should show up maybe two actions after I call it, right in the middle of my turn, and should hit the exact hex I tell it to, even from 45 miles away.

SPWAW is often not incorrect in it's times, as they repesent an FO calling to a fully prepared field battery in position to fire at the battlefield, and only needs minor corrections for position to hit the targetted area.

The smoke Duration I agree with you, it really shouldn't last more than two turns. There are other problems with smoke, as it shouldn't so much block line of sight, but instead obscure it, making spotting difficult, I'm not sure if the game engine can handle this however, hopefully CL will have this implemented.

If you think that the "Flow" of the game is disrupted by Artillery, I suggest you grasp the fact that often the "Flow" of battles were disrupted by artillery as well. It takes approximately, generalizing here of course, 1-2 1/2 minutes for an artillery regiment in WaW to start firing at a hex, IF IT FIRES AT THE END OF YOUR TURN THAT YOU CALLED IT. This would assume the artillery is being called at about halfway through the turn, onto a position that the artilleryman manning the firing chart can easily see the numbers for gun angle and aiming, such as a pre-spotted target, where he would have recieved the numbers for on his graph already. That, to me, seems about right. If it's .4, that's upwards of 5-7 1/2 minutes to fire, perhaps on a place where the gunners had to manually chart the numbers and do the math. If it takes a full turn (1.x) or more, that's upwards of about 8-11 minutes to fire. Depending. These are all approximate times, but the point is made, isn't it? Remember, 1 turn for me, is 2-5 minutes, depending. You could shorten the time in a turn, and therefor shorten the times, but this is the happy median I've found to be about right. Especially this is based on Infantry move rates and so on, as well as firing considerations, taking cover, and among other things, as well as a group consensus.

Try finding out how long turns feel to you, and work the math out for the Arty from that. Remember, these gunners have a tough job, but (usually) they're not bumbling idiots who have no idea what they're doing. It only takes about 5 seconds to change a shell, or less, I believe, of a 105mm howitzer.

Smoke simply lasts far too long....two turns, less. Plus it encompasses a 50m area...honestly I'd prefer to see smoke grenades removed, but smoke still shouldn't last more than 3-4 turns.

[Charles2222]

G_X:

If they're Order to Advance, they do so, if they become out of contact from a Unit with a radio (5 hex distance, Order-relaying ) then there's not **** I can do if they keep advancing and miss the order to stop.

This is what happens. Let's say unit C4 is four hexs away and lost contact, and then you switched platoon destination. Of course, C4 doesn't pick it up. He's shading west while you did a hard north turn. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying there, but if this failure for C4 to pick up the new destination is what you refer to as "not stopping" it makes sense, but if you meant that you literally couldn't stop the vehicle from moving you are incorrect. If, and only if it had hit it's previous destination would it possibly really be unable to move, and this is easily corrected by just setting further destinations in the first place. If you're planning to stop 20 hexs west, why not just select the furtherest westward hex on the board if what you want is enroute? Using that method, when C4 loses contact it'll only be able to proceed west (but it can stop anytime) when the rest of the platoon took the northward veer.

Being how I always set very distant destinations, I wouldn't know if it's possible for a unit to literally be stuck if it gets out of contact, but it sure seems plausible.

Also, this idea about being in CC if there's a radio unit within 5 hexs. Maybe I've misunderstood the rules, but I was thinking it was a 3 hex range, and to the HQ only and not to any radio unit, even if that unit happened to be in the same platoon. I would appreciate knowing the truth about this.

[G_X]

I was talking about how it could be changed, and 5 hexes is 250 meters, and seeing as how I've watched guys relay orders down a line longer than that, I see that as easily plausible, even under live-fire conditions.

It's a "I wish it worked like this..." kind of thing. *Shrug*

If C0 is back with heavy casualties, and C1 and C3 have Radios, but C2 and C4 don't, then if I keep C2 near C1, and C4 near C3, then C2 and C4 should be able to go 100 hexes from the HQ and not be out of contact. See what I mean? If one unit has a radio, I'm sure they;d be generous enough to pass the orders along

What I meant by it was, they would procede to their destination, while the rest of the squad stopped, if this meant they walked into enemy fire and died, I couldn't do that. At the moment, to me, C2 is like trying hard to be one thing, a battalion level simulator, while hanging on too tightly to the normal SPWaW level of Micromanagement. Orders should be issued at the company level for a Battalion HQ really...but...*shrug* It's a moot point, I've learned that it just isn't that great to play with C2 on, so I avoid it at all times when possible.

[Svennemir]

G_X:

You point to the "mathematically correct" fact that artillery starting its barrage at end of players turn could take approx. 1 - 2½ minutes to hit their targets. Since SPWAW is turn-based, and the other player cannot do anything before it's his turn, the fire was practically instant game-wise (of course only after the direct fire).

Consider this: Some jerk plots is bad-4$$ 203mm offboard artillery with a 1.4 turn delay. He then waits one turn and shifts fire once. Then he waits another turn. The artillery pieces have a delay of 0.1 now. If he shifts four times the barrage will be delayed 0.4 turns, meaning he can fire with 0.1 delay next turn. He can this way 'hold' his barrage in the air, and release it exactly when he wants to, devastating the surprised opponents forces (that were probably advancing so quickly that it would otherwise be impossible to coordinate heavy offboard artillery attacks against them). This is just *too* easy to do (BTW especially with onboard arty since they are always in contact).

Remember how bad communications actually were.

Anyway, it doesn't quite give sense to calculate exact minutes on the battlefield in SPWAW. Look at the fire rates of tanks - an IS-2 tank can fire two shots in... 2-5 minutes? The turret was not very well designed for fast firing, but this is *very* far off.

Translating Turn-based time to real time second to second is just an incorrect assumption. Artillery barrages, which should be falling steadily in a certain amount of time, the best assumption would be to let the two players' turns "overlap" in real-time - that would model the delay correctly, allowing the second player to actually move before impact.

[tiggwigg]

So SPWAW is flawed...it's AI is an idiot savant (can crunch numbers but can't make a meaningful decision)...it has an out-of-date game engine (despite the matrix updates, it is still about 10 years old?) and years a game model which is closer to 20 years old...I played a Grigsby game called Kamphgruppe on my C64 in about 1983, which was just a primitive SPWAW. The game mechanics is all about crunching numbers, much less about gameplay...something it seems Combat Leader is intended to remedy.

So no wonder SPWAW has many flaws...but as long as the same flaw applies to both sides, the game is balanced...that said, everybody loves to complain about the flaws...but a game such as this will never be perfect...it took multi-millions of dollars to come up with a computer that could beat a chess master...so what is a gaming company ever going to deliver...something far from perfect.

The main thing is that the gamers have fun (weather by playing or complaining, whichever you prefer). Many of the issues Hobbit raises I would like see fixed, but these a flaws we just have to live with...not just in SPWAW but in future games as well...I expect Combat Leader forums to be as full of gripes and wishlists as this SPWAW one...although there will be more chance of getting something done to fix them...and hopefully all up the game will be less flawed than SPWAW...yet flawed it will be...any turn based game will be so, since a turn is really a moment in time that everything occurs for the player, rather than a real-time continuum with things happening simultaneously. The same applies to a HEX based game, since where in the hex are the troops?

The way to look at a turn based game, as Paul Vebber has often talk around, is not to think of it as how the game fails an individuals expectations, but think of it as how the game portrays a situation...artillery not knocking out trucks in a hex...well a hex is a big place, and that truck can always be on one side and the shell lands 50 metres away on the other...in this situation you expect there to be no casualties...in addition the artillery barrage in SPWAW falls as one, although it represents a tube or battery firing throughout the five minute turn...so although the game shows the the truck as being in the same hex as the artillery bombardment, in the "reality" represented in SPWAW, the truck could have travelled through the hex 5 minutes before the shell landed, and so be 10 hexes away by the time the gamer sees the explosion and so quite safe...it is a consequence of the discontinuity caused by the fact that the truck moves through a five minute period, but the barrage is represented as occurring completely in a single instant of time.

Scouts being spotted...that irks me too, but could it happen? They opposing infantry could be on picket duty carefully observing with binoculars, while the recon troops might be lazy or not expecting the enemy...often recon aren't specialists in recon, but simply a couple of guys who are assigned the task, so mistakes would be expected...hence they make mistakes as they move and get spotted. Anyway...in the real world that unit five hexes a way isn't stuck in that hex, but would probably have sent a couple of observers forward, who would be well-placed to spot advancing troops...hence your recon gets spotted.

Same could be said of the bazooka team spotting the special forces...it is daylight and you have ten guys with 25 kg of gear who have just run 500 meters and are taking a breather for 10 minutes...they don't expect anyone in the vicinity and are slack...your bazooka crew hear their chatter and laughter from 150 metres away, creep forward and observe them.

[AmmoSgt]

Hobbit ...I'll answer you on No.8 The meeting engagment and being the 2nd Player...I have played a few PBEM Meeting engagements, and if you are the second player you can have a big advantage.. I agree Player 1 will probably do a mad dash for the middle victory hexs ..and he might well get them .. so don't do the same thing..now he has to spread his troops out to defend 3 locations .. pick either the left or right group of Vhexes depending on which one has the best terrian for your composition of forces and concentrate you main attack on that group then take the other north to south of south to north ... you will want to use a very small force to pin and monitor the other Vhexes, just to keep an eye on them and deter or delay a timely switch of his forces to where you are attacking...But as the 2nd Player you can have a rather large advantage in numbers and position .
Just some other thoughts smoke and trees only block LOS if you have very short visability, visiability over 20 only causes them to hinder detection . Your tactic of trying to run scout cars at high speed to make them hard to hit is not a good way of doing it , scout cars should only use that speed IMHO to make a dash from cover to cover , Moving stuff 1 hex at a time allows you to react and duck to cover if you get shot at or see something.
Your description of infantry scout units doesn't seem to jive with your description of how bazooka teams can seank up on special ops sqauds .. 2 man teams and snipers can be very hard to spot if you use terrain masking to move and cover for observation. Proper use of light arty and mortars to suppress possible observation points can also help you scouts move more freely without detection .
Paratroops ... well the map sizes aren't exactly big enough to drop whole companies in behind enemy lines properly .. so don't do it .. drop some airborne recon groups of two men and bazookas and FO's instead .. use them to find targets and get info so you have a better idea of what the enemy is doing .. don't drop a lot , make you last buy the Transports so you only get 1 or 2 planes at most. You try dropping an infantry company in my rear area and my mobile Flak will be waiting to gun them down once they land and they will just be mopped up by my reserves , everytime. However, if you fail to secure you rear area , my airborne scouts will definately mess up your plans by calling arty , knocking out ammo trucks blocking key roads to slow reinforcemnts, annoying stuff like that. And if you see transports running from you rear corner to your other rear corner behind your lines , well maybe they dropped somebody, maybe they didn't , but you will never know unless you look for them , even if I didn't put anybody on the planes , they are still messing with your head. Most of the problems you described are a simple lack of understanding on how to use terrain and a lack of using appropiate tactics IMHO , yeah there are a few "Gaming" tricks you can use , but if you use them you are wrong for doing so IMHO and if your opponent uses them , then you should call him on it. Calling Arty in real Life should be about 1.0 for US maybe 1.4 for the Brits late war and 4.0-5.0 for everybody else. Another small fact is that only the US would have portable battery operated radios in any number, Other Armies in WW2 were pretty much confined to vehicle mounted radios , due to the fact that dry cell batteries were very scarce for everybody but the US, simple trivial fact that is often overlooked . Learning proper tactics is not easy, and cannot come solely from trial and error by playing the game , some outside study is required, Small Unit tactics are not generally covered in history books . Blitzkrieg is Army, Corps and Divisional level tactics . Small Unit tactics is Different in many ways, regardless if the Overall Operational tactic is set piece, Blitxkrieg, or Combined Arms.