What's wrong with the "Super" Pershing?

[malbug]

I've been playing the "Super Pershing" scenario in the 8.2 version of Steel Panthers and I'm a little confused. The tank itself was modified with increased amor protection and it has a 122MM L22 main cannon. However, this weapon has very poor punch as indicated by the armor penetration chart in the tank's profile which says that the gun can penetrate a maximum of 94MM of armour at a range of one hex. This makes it virtually useless against the tanks it faces in the scenario as the 76MM gun on the Sherman packs more wallop than the Super Pershing. The modified Pershing in Belton Cooper's book "Deathtraps" had a gun that was capable of going through 13 inches of armor!! Is the low penetrating power of the Super Pershing in Steel Panthers a typo or was it the author's intention to make it weaker than the actual tank?? It sure would help if it was more powerful as it is difficult to defeat the Germans in this scenario without the extra firepower. Anyone?

[EricDerKönig (HMB)]

Maybe the gun on the scenario was accidentally an artillery gun, which have bad penetration values?

[malbug]

You could be right. It's possible that it was intended as an artillery piece to use against infantry. Does anyone else's Super Pershing have the same low-powered gun? Just curious.

[rrockw]

Malbug,

I started the scenario on my campaign and found the same results you did. Not to mention my Super Pershing was destroyed in one hit from the 88 of a german tank.

Rich

[Jim1954]

You guys are probably dealing with a scenario that was designed in a previous version when a different gun occupied that slot. I forget what the weapon number was, but it is the 122mm one with little punch. You could modify that unit in the editor and give it something more appropriate.

[malbug]

Jim1954,
I didn't know that it was possible to modify weapons in scenarios. How would I go about doing that?

malbug

[Voriax]

malbug, you have to fire up the editor, then load the appropriate scenario into it. Then select the unit..hit 'd' key I think (been a while I've done any editing). However you can find that 'modify unit data' button from the right hand button group. When you have managed to enter the data modify screen just select the weapon you want to change and a new screen opens with a list of weapons. Locate the weapon you want to use and enter it's number..to put it briefly. It is easier to do than it sounds [;)]

Just copy the original scenario somewhere safe so if you mess up you can start from fresh. Go ahead and experiment.

Voriax

[malbug]

Thanks for the info. I'm not at my home computer right now so I can't try this yet but will the editor let me change just the main weapon or will I have to select a whole new tank? I have never used the editor function before but I know that the Super Pershing is not listed in the weapons encyclopedia, or at least I did not see it.

[Voriax]

You can change the main gun of that particular unit. It is not necessary to change anything else. Of course you will see enemy setup so do not look very closely at the map if you want to enjoyt the scenario [8D]

Voriax

[malbug]

I've played it so many times that I pretty much know where the Krauts are. Thanks.

[malbug]

I've loaded the scenario into the Editor but I don't see any buttons that allow me to "modify unit data". I can modify terrain, weather and map size but nothing else. Help!!

[Major Destruction]

In the scenario editor
Select the unit you want to edit
Type d
Select weapon 1
Type 77 (this will give you a weapon you can use)
enter, enter enter, enter to get back to the unit.

Save scenario.

The 122mm gun in your scenario is the Russian gun used in the SU assault guns. The weapon 77 is a 128mm gun. If you can read the 128 as a mistype for 122, you can go on.
It's not perfect but it will give you the results you want, I think.

[malbug]

I don't know if I'm a moron or what but I don't see any button(s) that allow me to click on a particular unit to change it. I click on "Solitaire Play". I then go to the "Editor" icon (I have an "Editor" icon/command and a "Campaign Editor" icon/command, but no "Scenario Editor " icon/command in the menu). I then load the Super Pershing scenario onto the "editor" screen and I am looking at various buttons that allow me to change things like weather, map size, etc. but nothing that allows me to selelct a unit to change. I have the 8.2 version. When I clip on the "Edit map" icon I can see all the units on the map, Germans included, but all of the selections on the right have to do with changing the terain features and little else that I can see. Am I not getting it? Help!!

[Voriax]

malbug, you need a advance a bit more. Forgot that earlier. After loading the scenario you have to click 'deploy' button. Then you will get a screen much like the normal game screen. Select the Super Pershing like you'd select an unit in normal game. Then follow Major Destruction's instructions.

Voriax

[malbug]

Thanks. I actually looked at the manual last night and figured it out. I appreciate everyone's help. With the added punch I creamed the Germans!

malbug

[Dragoon 45]

I have a reference book titled "American and British Armored Vehicles of World War II", by Chamberlyn and Ellis. I believe the M-26 in question was the M-26E2. It was uparmored to the same scale as the Jumbo Sherman. The actual main gun was a 90mm of I believe 70 caliber length and used two part ammunition, the round itself and the propellant charge in a separate casing. The weapon was so long that the designers had to put a large counter-weight on the rear of the turret. With this counter-weight installed the turret rear actually had thicker armor than the front. The main gun in question is not available in the game itself. The book I mentioned above has just about every experimental tank, SP artillery piece, tank destroyer, and half-track dreamed up during the war. There was actually a version of the Sherman for mine clearance that had over 8 feet of ground clearance and used three very large steel wheels instead of tracks. Needless to say it was only experimental and never developed.

[John Galt]

When one makes a change like this, isn't it now an issue if playing a PBEM game? Doesn't it affect the OOB? What would happen if I were to attempt to play PBEM with a changed parameter?

[m10bob]

Belton Cooper describes those tanks and their experimental useage in combat.He was a squad leader in a 3rd Armoured Tank Recovery unit,(the only unit which had that tank)..
The book is "Death Traps"....Excellent read..[:)]

[BryanMelvin]

The 122mm L22 used in the USA oobs retains the USSR data for this weapon class and ammo type used. So this maybe where the problem resides. Major Destruction's work around solution for scenario would come close to type ammo USA use and would be best fix for scenario. Altering this weapon in USA oob was not considered. Best decision was to leave it at the USSR settings for captured weapon use in post WWII scenarios.

[Major Destruction]

ORIGINAL: John Galt

When one makes a change like this, isn't it now an issue if playing a PBEM game? Doesn't it affect the OOB? What would happen if I were to attempt to play PBEM with a changed parameter?

The edit I suggested only affects that single scenario.
Scenario designers may edit any unit they like (using the scenario editor) for example in my Airborne Asault scenario I used the Belgian 47mm anti-tank gun in my German TOE and then edited the weapon to the 47mm PaK 185(b). This gave my unit a good picture, appropriate icon and historical weapon name.

An edit such as this will not affect pbem play in any way.

On the other hand, if I edit the weapon in the OOB editor, that will cause problems whenever I use that edited OOB in a pbem game.