One thing I find in the game is that halftracks with their AAMGs are better infantry killers than infantry is. So, I kill or surpress opposing tanks at long range then close to about 5 hexes and blaze away with those AAMGs. ("invisible" ATGs are still a problem though) In this manner I use halftracks not as an armored battle taxi but as a mobile fighing platform.
This seems at odds with what I have read. It seems to me that halftracks were kept to the rear once infantry comes into contact and dismounts to fight. If this is so, I am wondering an adjustment needs to be made to prevent this kind of thing.
Do you use this tactic, what do you know about the use of halftracks and what do you think about adjusting the AAMGs to stop this?
Halftracks as MICVS?
Moderator: MOD_SPWaW
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Larry Holt
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Halftracks as MICVS?
Never take counsel of your fears.
Using Halftracks to support infantry itself does'nt strike me as ahistorical. I've always considered it one of the advantages enjoyed by a truely 'mechanized' force as opposed to either a 'motorized' (unarmored trucks) or a pure infantry force (traditional a.k.a. footpads, no organic transport)
True, in the SP-1 days, things got skewed mightily but that was due to problems with the suppression rules as well as the more rigid supression removal routine that went along with em.
As such Halftracks became powerhouses and the bane of my existance whenever i'd play an early Soviet type battle (with marginal to low experience) Typical scenes would show Halftracks leading the AI assault (because of their speed) routing and pinning all before them, including TANKS!!!!!
<img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Things are much better now so Halftracks appear to work right. They do make great infantry support weapons but one must remember that the scale of SP:WAW can be deceptive in regards to reallife doctorine. For example, the German army in particular was not a fully mechanized army as is commonly thought, due to the reputation and dazzle of the Panzer divisions. A large majority of the army was actually still foot and hoof bound (and more importantly, most of their supply train as well!)
As such, and added to a economy that did'nt gear for total war until much later in the war, Halftrack production was modest at best. IIRC, German AFV production was divided evenly into thirds. 1/3 Tanks, 1/3, Assault guns, 1/3 Halftracks(and recon type vehicles)
Given their limited numbers in relation to the Army as a whole, one can understand why doctorine would frown on using Halftracks energetically as inf support weapons. They are vulnerable to any and all AT weapons, including AT rifles, and thanks to the better spotting rules in WAW those 'invisible' AT guns can really make the Halftrack close support "tactic" costly to the attacking side.
Still, the temptation for the player will remain. Few players voluntarily choose to play the more mundane aspects avail to WAW, such as pure motorized or infantry only scenerios. Most will involve tanks and most will chose mechanized infantry if the points allow, so you'll continue to see a 'proliferation' of halftracks.
me, i do attempt to employ my halftracks when i have em, but i'm much more careful now in WAW then in earlier days. The size of my halftrack graveyard is mute testiment to the risks involved in deploying them up front but the short term 'gains' can make it rewarding
thats another aspect too in the difference between reallife doctorine and WAW play. Even in a 'campaign' setting we can afford to use our halftracks more reckelessly since they are cheap in points. however in real life, an Pz Div commander (or equivilent in another army) has to bear in mind the potential loss in overall mobility if his footpads lose too many of their halftracks resulting in the panzergrenadier not being able to keep pace with the tanks when the advance continues!
<img src="eek.gif" border="0">
True, in the SP-1 days, things got skewed mightily but that was due to problems with the suppression rules as well as the more rigid supression removal routine that went along with em.
As such Halftracks became powerhouses and the bane of my existance whenever i'd play an early Soviet type battle (with marginal to low experience) Typical scenes would show Halftracks leading the AI assault (because of their speed) routing and pinning all before them, including TANKS!!!!!
<img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Things are much better now so Halftracks appear to work right. They do make great infantry support weapons but one must remember that the scale of SP:WAW can be deceptive in regards to reallife doctorine. For example, the German army in particular was not a fully mechanized army as is commonly thought, due to the reputation and dazzle of the Panzer divisions. A large majority of the army was actually still foot and hoof bound (and more importantly, most of their supply train as well!)
As such, and added to a economy that did'nt gear for total war until much later in the war, Halftrack production was modest at best. IIRC, German AFV production was divided evenly into thirds. 1/3 Tanks, 1/3, Assault guns, 1/3 Halftracks(and recon type vehicles)
Given their limited numbers in relation to the Army as a whole, one can understand why doctorine would frown on using Halftracks energetically as inf support weapons. They are vulnerable to any and all AT weapons, including AT rifles, and thanks to the better spotting rules in WAW those 'invisible' AT guns can really make the Halftrack close support "tactic" costly to the attacking side.
Still, the temptation for the player will remain. Few players voluntarily choose to play the more mundane aspects avail to WAW, such as pure motorized or infantry only scenerios. Most will involve tanks and most will chose mechanized infantry if the points allow, so you'll continue to see a 'proliferation' of halftracks.
me, i do attempt to employ my halftracks when i have em, but i'm much more careful now in WAW then in earlier days. The size of my halftrack graveyard is mute testiment to the risks involved in deploying them up front but the short term 'gains' can make it rewarding
thats another aspect too in the difference between reallife doctorine and WAW play. Even in a 'campaign' setting we can afford to use our halftracks more reckelessly since they are cheap in points. however in real life, an Pz Div commander (or equivilent in another army) has to bear in mind the potential loss in overall mobility if his footpads lose too many of their halftracks resulting in the panzergrenadier not being able to keep pace with the tanks when the advance continues!
<img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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Belisarius
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Especially playing defensive, I find halftracks great. I use them as HMGs with VERY good mobility once they've dropped of their troops. So they run from place to place at full speed behind the own lines to fill up gaps. Halftracks doesn't suffer from the can't-fire-your-heavies-when-moving rule, as MGs does. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Can't tell if this is in line with actual use, but I guess at least the Germans would, at later stages in the war, throw in anything that could spit bullets. And AAMGS are pretty good at it. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Can't tell if this is in line with actual use, but I guess at least the Germans would, at later stages in the war, throw in anything that could spit bullets. And AAMGS are pretty good at it. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Got StuG?
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Larry Holt
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Good response Nikademus. Since SPWaW points are based on a unit's combat power and not on production cost, the cheap halftracks will just remain that way. I am careful to not get them too far out front and I only usually only use a few, primarily because I only use them during the mop up phase. So, I guess that I will just continue to use them as cheap support platforms.Originally posted by Nikademus:
Using Halftracks to support infantry itself does'nt strike me as ahistorical. I've always considered it one of the advantages enjoyed by a truely 'mechanized' force as opposed to either a 'motorized' (unarmored trucks) or a pure infantry force (traditional a.k.a. footpads, no organic transport)[snip]
However, as I noted in a different thread, how can a crew of two drive around and fire both MGs at the same time.
Never take counsel of your fears.
On the Eastern Front, German troops would do exactly that. There are numerous AARs stating that the 1/2 tracks would be employed as fire support to suppress Soviet troops until the infantry could close.
Incidentally, this use, and the instances where Wehrmacht forces would actually fight FROM the vehicle, sparked Soviet interest in the concept of MICVs. Which was later copied by the West.
Plus ca change....
Incidentally, this use, and the instances where Wehrmacht forces would actually fight FROM the vehicle, sparked Soviet interest in the concept of MICVs. Which was later copied by the West.
Plus ca change....
"...these go up to eleven."
Nigel Tufnel
Nigel Tufnel
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Larry Holt
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Even at the start of the war, PZIb are used just as you are using the halftracks, they hose the infantry after the opposing AT capability is gone.Originally posted by Larry Holt:
One thing I find in the game is that halftracks with their AAMGs are better infantry killers than infantry is. So, I kill or surpress opposing tanks at long range then close to about 5 hexes and blaze away with those AAMGs. ("invisible" ATGs are still a problem though) In this manner I use halftracks not as an armored battle taxi but as a mobile fighing platform.
This seems at odds with what I have read. It seems to me that halftracks were kept to the rear once infantry comes into contact and dismounts to fight. If this is so, I am wondering an adjustment needs to be made to prevent this kind of thing.
Do you use this tactic, what do you know about the use of halftracks and what do you think about adjusting the AAMGs to stop this?
If you have a tactic that you think works against the ai, it probobly won't against human opponents. In my experiance, armored infantry is spam in a can, halftracks are just targets for any sort of anti-vehicle weapon. I often take out the light armor first as long as I think I can maintain parity in the later gun v gun duels.
thanks, John.
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Kluckenbill
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I've found Halftracks to be quite useful, but a bit fragile. As noted elsewhere, AT rifles and light AT guns are quite accurate and very hard to spot. Therefore I've lost quite a few of my German Halftracks when I tried to use them for medium range infantry support early in the war. The MG accuracy for the halftracks is better than for the rifle squads' MG34's because of the stable pointle mounting. Halftracks are great for running down and annihilating routed enemies.
For a quick attack I've found that the best tactic is to spot the defender with recon or infantry, hopefully without taking heavy losses in the process. Move up a few tanks to hose them down and get them disrupted, then close with the infantry and halftracks to finish them off. Pz3's and 4's are pretty immune frontally to AT rifles, as they should be. Obviously artillery is great if you have the time.
This works against the AI but I can't imagine this would work very well against a human opponent. In defense, I've found a mixture of MG's and AT guns to be awesome as long as they don't come under heavy artillery fire, or face tanks that they can't penetrate <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
For a quick attack I've found that the best tactic is to spot the defender with recon or infantry, hopefully without taking heavy losses in the process. Move up a few tanks to hose them down and get them disrupted, then close with the infantry and halftracks to finish them off. Pz3's and 4's are pretty immune frontally to AT rifles, as they should be. Obviously artillery is great if you have the time.
This works against the AI but I can't imagine this would work very well against a human opponent. In defense, I've found a mixture of MG's and AT guns to be awesome as long as they don't come under heavy artillery fire, or face tanks that they can't penetrate <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
Target, Cease Fire !
Halftracks are great for suppressing/destroying MGs. And as a base of fire for infantry. They are soft and easy to spot but they move quickly so they can show up where they are needed. As with everything they have their weaknesses which need to be kept in mind always.
WWII was the time where Armoured Personal Carrier tactics were being developed, the out growth of this time is todays MICVs.
[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]</p>
WWII was the time where Armoured Personal Carrier tactics were being developed, the out growth of this time is todays MICVs.
[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]</p>
Once my infantry dismounts, it uses halftracks the way they use mortars: added firepower delivered to spotted targets. They start and end their turn in cover to the rear of the infantry. When needed they are called up, pour on some MG fire, and retreat back. Later in the game they can hold VH's, and act as a last ditch mobile reserve.
They are even useful in their intended role as armored personal carriers <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
They are even useful in their intended role as armored personal carriers <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Squatting in the bush and marking it on a map.
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Kluckenbill
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SNIP - Originally posted by 11Bravo:
Once my infantry dismounts, it uses halftracks the way they use mortars: added firepower delivered to spotted targets. They start and end their turn in cover to the rear of the infantry. When needed they are called up, pour on some MG fire, and retreat back.
Me too, unfortunately its hard to pull this off effectively with C&C on. You burn a command or 2 every turn moving the halftracks forward and back.
Target, Cease Fire !