Axis using Klingon Cloaking device...

valdor17 · Post by **valdor17** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:18 pm

No, this is not about difficult to see infantry, AT guns and such--I actually like that (often irritating) feature. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

This is about enemy icons that turn invisible even though I still have LOS and acquisition.

Sometimes when I cycle a unit through it's available targets it will 'see', provide info on, and can engage an 'invisible' enemy unit (that I can't see) even though that unit appears to be targeting an empty hex.

Cromort · Post by **Cromort** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 6:25 pm

don't worry
just shoot
<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

(some bug i guess??)

"Dulce bellum inexpertis"
ERASMUS

valdor17 · Post by **valdor17** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:41 pm

Originally posted by Cromort:
don't worry
just shoot

The only problem is the targets you don't detect! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Last night I had an M10 TD open-up on some PzIIIs
at about 20 hexes only to get rudely surprised by an invisible Stug only 7 hexes away <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

Also, am fighting the WWII campaign as the US and against the Germans it isn't too bad, they have a reasonable number of units. But against an Italian attack, with their hordes of infantry, it's a real pain--invisible 13.2mm HMGs keep popping up which is rather hard on my Halftracks, AT guns and AD guns, not to mention my infantry.

I assumed this was a known bug--I was just wondering if there was a fix or workaround or if it will be fixed in 7.0

Mark Ezra · Post by **Mark Ezra** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:55 pm

Something that may help you is to search the area before you decide that thos PzIII at 20 hexes are your best or most urgent target. All you need to do is click on your M10 and right click the hex edges to view "search" each hex side. Based on moral and experience you M10 just may spot that Stugg. Also we should always keep in mind that the hex is not billiard table flat, men an vehicles may seemingly hide in plain site. I read a transcript of tank to tank radio "chatter" from WW2. These guys were always looking, always mis-identifying, and always driving blind. Open topped or not...it just isn't easy to see much in combat during WW2

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:03 pm

Valdor, I don't know if you have been in the military or not but this is an accurate portrayal of the "fog of war". Sometimes a unit will see the enemy but no other unit can see it even though they have a LOS into the hex. Its frustrating but realistic.

valdor17 · Post by **valdor17** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:19 pm

Okay, it's not a Fog of War problem <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Let me explain the problem further...

I loaded my savegame from the beginning of the turn in question and had the M10 cycle through all it's targets using the 'T' key and, sure enough, the M10 could target the 'invisible' (to me) Stug:

* The game drew a red outline around the hex the 'invisible' Stug was in and drew a red line from the M10 to the target hex.

* In the text window at the bottom of the map it had:
Target: Stug40 ausf G
Range to Target 7 hexes
Unmodified hit chance xx percent

* Tried some other units and several of them also targetted the 'invisible' Stug.

* As far as I (the human operator) could tell the hex was empty <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

If several of my units can 'see' (target) an enemy unit, I should be able to see it on the map (at least in SPWAW.)

What I am reasonably sure is happening is that something is causing the Stug icon to be erased or painted over and the icon is not being refreshed/redrawn.

Again, I've noticed this with other enemy units--the Stug was just the worst case (at least for the M10 crew <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) I've seen so far.

BTW: I'm a retired US Army Armor officer whose service included almost 2 years commanding a Soviet-styled Motorized Rifle Battalion as part of the OPFOR at the US Army's National Training Center. I've also been playing computer wargames since Kampfgruppe and Mech Brigade (both by SSI, 1985). I understand Fog of War <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 10:12 pm

Originally posted by Valdor:
Okay, it's not a Fog of War problem <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Let me explain the problem further...
....

BTW: I'm a retired US Army Armor officer whose service included ... I understand Fog of War <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Ah, I should have checked your profile first. However, in the game an icon that is visible to you is also visible to all units in the game. In this case while several units can target it, I bet at least some others cannot even though they have LOS to that hex. While it may seem strange that several units can see it yet you cannot, this is the means the game uses to depict fog of war and a unit that is visible to only some units.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 1:55 am

Sounds like a bug to me

Mark Ezra · Post by **Mark Ezra** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:28 am

Ahhhh...trust me to read a post at 6AM....LOL Yes it does sound very much like a bug. It's one I've not seen in a while. Possible cause might be the particular location of the hex combined with the topograhical feature. If memory serves this happened in the early days of SPWAW occasionally. Some people would experience it, others never did. There was talk then that perhaps it was as much a function of the PC's, graphic cards more than code. Perhaps some old timer can recall or set me straight

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:01 am

Well, I don't know how old I am but I have a double digit member number. I recall that Paul Vebber posted on this and said that this was supposed to be this way, that it simulates a limited knowledge of the battlefield by units and that its supposed to be this way, that units in real life don't have a borg like knowledge of all units just because someone else spotted them. If I am not correct perhaps Paul can correct me or someone can bring up an old post to the contrary. This is not a bug where a unit that should be displayed is not being displayed.

appunk · Post by **appunk** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:33 am

Here's something to try out. After you've hit "t" to get the targeting screen up, and you see the line drawn to a hex that doesn't seem to contain any enemy unit, press "n" to go to next, and keep hitting "n" until you cycle through all the visible enemy units. When you get back to the beginning, I'm rather certain that the "phantom" unit will no longer come up as a target.
From my observations, this happens when one of your units opportunity fires at an enemy during the enemies turn, and then that unit moves somewhere out of line of sight. The hex that gets targeted is the last hex that your unit shot at, even though there's nothing there anymore.

hope that's helpful.

--funnymarx

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:35 am

THere are occasions where a unit that was seen and is acquired is "lost track of" by the "Borg hive mind" the unit(s) that have it as their acquired target can sometimes still fire at it. Sometimes if you rally them to a higher morale state, enough good order units see it for it to be displayed. That is intentional.

There are also some reports that have not been able to be confirmed of graphics not being properly displayed in weird situations. (Mines disappearing and wrecks disappearing have been confirmed, but spotted units disappearing is very difficult to find the cause of.

I consider it a "feature" since it is intended that the "Borg hive mind" ocasionally lose track of things (especially with limited Intel on).

valdor17 · Post by **valdor17** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:41 am

I can accept that <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

However, the bailed-out crew of that M10 are still looking for a change of underwear <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 5:13 pm

I had this happen twice last night! It seems to be as explained, it was a target that got op-fired at, and may have moved out altogether, or still be there just not spotted well! It was both the cases!! I shot anyway the first time, and heard the reassuring clunk followed by an explosion, the second time, I hit fire, and nothing happened, the target was no longer there <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Hope this helps, you're not alone!!

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:19 pm

I used to theorize that the phantom target had moved but that the firing unit hadn't updated that, but I've yet to see this to be true. The idea of scrolling through all the units in targeting, and it not appearing seems to confirm that it has moved on, but if you don't select any of those you've scrolled through, and hit target again, it's still there.

Every single time I've fired at a phantom unit, the fire is indicative of a unit that is there. The only thing that flaked me out any, is if the unit is infantry and one of the hits knocks it out. Because when firign at infantry, you usually knock them to dispersal instead of outright destruction, it doesn't display or show the dispersal, but instead the firing unit no longer has any targets.

The fact of the matter is that when units cloak, they have to cloak at a specific instant, which I take to be between player turns. Let's say that you know with absolute certainty, that infantry C1 was 3 hexes away from your KTiger, which you in turn fired on the infantry with that unit. End of turn. So, we figure, how can a unit that just fired on it, lose track of it, since timewise it just fired on it, and the opponent did nothing else? The problem is, that the KTiger in a sense didn't actually see it, when it did. Something else was seeing it.

I'm not too sure of the benefits of this spotting routine, but what often happens, as I said, the KTiger doesn't actually see it, when it fired, and so maybe the next thing you do is grab that KTiger to cream it. Only problem is, that the unit, probably infantry, whcih had spotted the enemy infantry during the enemy turn, hasn't been touched by the player yet, so that that unit 'cannot' spot it. This is one of the annoying things about 'spin-dancing', you have to get the unit possibly spotting it, and spin it toward the direction of where units may have been lost track of. This rather shadowy aspect of gameplay, isn't helped any if the unit that did the spotting during the enemy turn, gets heavily surpressed itself, and worse yet if it cannot rally. So how this works out, the phantom unit cannot be spotted, unless, the prior spotter is present in the same hex it was before, in th esame status, which means that if it had retreated and had been knocked back a hex, then rallied to 1, and moved back into the hex, there is a chance it still will not spot it (because a unit stationary with no suppression, as the spotter may had been when the spotting was done, may be enough of a difference to not spot a unit after rallying it back up and moving it in).

As you can tell this spin-dancing doesn't sit well with me, but then I can't remember the advantages either. It kind of burns me that if I go through my units alphabetically and rally the ones that need it, and fire straight through like that, that there may be units I couldn't spot because of two reasons and therefore used fire that I otherwise wouldn't have (though fighting locally on occassion gets around that somewhat). The first problem is rallying. We have to rally them in the order of units that are spotting first. Perhaps with CL a feature used could be something of an auto-rally for the 15 units closest to an enemy unit, or perhaps with units closest to the enemy map edge.

The other problem is the spin-dance. Another thing that might be nice would be an automatic spin-dance command for all foot units, therefore if they had been rallied in advance relatively all spotting could be done, that can be. I don't say all units spin-dancing (unless they stopped the spin-dance where they started it [same degrees]), because you probably wouldn't want armor facing in different directions than they were left in after the enemy turn. Such a feature would be something of an en masse search feature or a search with limited units.

Anyway, just a few ideas.

color · Post by **color** » Tue Oct 09, 2001 8:39 pm

There is a logical reason for some units not being able to see a target that some do.
Due to their different position, changes in elevation can create blindspots that even though there is no defined terrain (tree, building) blocking the target from being seen, different undulating terrain makes the target not visible from the other units location.
That would be able to validate hitting the button too see the hexes visible from the units location.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:42 am

Yes, I'm sure there is a convuluted process that will get around the fact that only some units can shoot at some units that are "lost track of" - the spotting process in teh game is very abstract. The searcher has a "spotting value" and the target has an "anti spotting value". With Limited intel on, these values are recalculated at teh end of each turn and teh status updated. IF a unit that disappears is "acquired" by a firer and teh target has not moved, it will still be a valid target for that unit only. SOmetimes by "searching" (the spin) you can spot units that were not spoted at the end of the last player turn.

The goal is to through some uncertainty into the 'Borg Hive mind" Comms system, not to "force you" to perform stupid unit tricks and spot all the units you are theoretically "supposed" to have spotted before you start shooting. The idea is to move from unit to unit and "be that platoon commander" for a moment.

Comabt Leader will likely have a "regular" Borg hive mind mode, and a "limited situational awareness" mode that will work in conjucntion with the initiative based formation movement so when its "your turn" in that mode, you have a choice of several platoons of perhaps a company if massed for a attack to "activate". Once you select, thenyou will only see on the map what that platoon or company knows about. (and reports form other platoons or companies may be time late)

That will solve the problem. If like teh Borg hive mind and play for the "best bang for you buck" movement order, you will be able to do that, but teh other way where each platoon or concetrated company has its own "OODA" loop will make the game more accurate in the way information is distributed around the battlefield.

I am hopeful these aspects will be in CL Eastern Front.

Dave R · Post by **Dave R** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:13 pm

I've just come across this myself. Though I did notice that the unit that, could target an enamy which wasn't shown on the map, was also out of contact.
If this is how it should run, then that's OK by me, it feels right. It lets the local guys have a pop at the target, but limits the 'info' going back up the line

Larry Smith · Post by **Larry Smith** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 9:22 pm

I have seen this qite often. I have always assumed it was a simulation of Fog of War. After all, if your unit has targeted an "invisible" target, try chosing another!! Then try to re-target it. YOU CANT'T! Just take it as a case of a target that is moving, and you have a fleeting target to fire at. Perhaps it is just moving within its hex (ie: back and forth from hull/turret down). Like someone said earlier, JUST SHOOT!!

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:18 pm

Laurence Smith: No Laurence, that's inaccurate. The invisible target CAN be reacquired after you've gone to the next target after that. You accomplish that by exiting that target attempt (whether selecting a target or not, makes any difference I don't know, but it does work if you DON'T selct any targets) and hitting the target key all over again, at which point the invisible one will be the first targeted again.