Jungle Fighting

[ILCK]

OK, while the armor thing doesn't feel 100% right to me one thing about jungle fighting is how freakin' bloody it is. I hate losing guys, make me feel like I'm not doing my job. How do you handle this scenario:

X = Jungle hex, 0 - Enemy Unit:


XXXXX
XX0XX
XXXXX

No way to "see" then until you get next to them whihc, of course, provokes opp fire and gets 3-4 of my guys killed and usually routed. I've tried using a lot of scouts, sniper and recon but they die a horrible death when they hit that unit and then I know where they are but to shoot at them I still have to move next to them and get shot to pieces and then when it comes time to find the next dug in like a tick unit my recon is gone. My current apporach is to use the recon, get it killed. Call in a hail of mortar fire on the jungle and then close on a unit I hope is suppressed. Is this just the best way to handle it?

[KG Erwin]

In jungle advances, I mount recon units on tanks, and move them one hex in front of my main infantry line, until contact is made. The recon units will bail when they hit an enemy (I assume it's a Japanese) squad. IF they survive the first rounds, they will either retreat or stay put. The tank unit may get op fire and buy time for the recon guys to get the he ll out. In your turn, you zero in your mortars on the enemy and move the tank unit back. You should be able to suppress the enemy enough to advance a Marine Rifle Squad or two, along with a tank, if one is close by. Always have the tank fire first--your infantry unit may still draw op fire if they open up first (those Japs are indeed tough). If you're lucky, you can either force the enemy to retreat or you will destroy them. This is the way jungle fighting in the Pacific was conducted. Rely on your firepower to save your men's lives.

I'm with you on the reluctance to squander men, ILCK. Whether you choose the US Army or ANZAC or the USMC in the Pacific, if you're a good commander, you care for your troops. I try to preach this to the newbies, who sometimes want to rush in with guns blazing.

Combat in the jungle requires a slow, methodical advance, especially in rain or monsoon conditions, where visibility is sometimes restricted to one hex. Opportunities for flanking maneuvers sometimes exist, but do not leave gaps for enemy infiltrators.

[Poopyhead]

Check out JIM1954's post in the "What's the right way to use recon units" thread. I know that as the Japanese I was able to sneak up on Allied units dug in like you describe with my scout teams without drawing fire. It's sort of an acquired skill. Set their range to zero, or turn their weapons off and really only move them one or two hexes per turn. Sight with them, don't shoot with them. Be patient. Teach yourself the right way to do it. It's worth it.

[Procrustes]

I like Poopyhead's advice. Unfortunately, you will loose some scouts - not any way around that. But if you are slow and careful you will loose fewer of them. Some small consolation: as the scout squads get smaller they get harder for the enemy to spot. Small mortars are your best friend - once you find the enemy with your scout mortar him on the next turn, then assault with the infantry that you had trailing your scout. I really dislike leading with my tanks - I keep them back and use them once I've spotted and pinned the enemy. (Stuart light tanks are killers - lots of MG's.) Don't chase the retreating enemy too far - there may be another squad hidden a couple of hexes behind him.

My favorite megacamp is Watchtower - you play as the US Marines on Guadacanal. Lots of jungle fighting. And another bonus - scouts that survive from scenario to scenario gain acumen and get a lot better at sneaking up on the Japanese without getting spotted - see how many battles you can take them through!

[Poopyhead]

Right you are. I hate it when the AI continues to stack units right next to my scout until one of them finally spots him! Of course, the AI pays a terrible price.
It may also be the case that the recon units that ILCK used just didn't have enough experience to do what my Japanese units had done. I also try to keep some scouts in my core force.

[Flyboy]

I was recently playing a PBEM game as Japan vs. USMC, 1945, rough jungle terrain.

I went heavy on Japanese armour, with a platoon of engineers, and 3-4 snipers, to support each platoon of 3-4 tanks. I mounted a sniper on each tank to 'absorb' the first burst of small arms fire as I ploughed through the jungle, then supressed the marine squads with the tank as much as possible, then moved engineers in to flame 'em out. I also followed each combat patrol with at least one SPA to move in and pound stubborn resistance from 1-2 hexes away. Finally, each column was trailed by a couple of ammo trucks, and trucks full of extra snipers, to keep the SPA firing and to keep the tanks mounted with expendable scouts, as I advanced. Worked great.

[ILCK]

I think the mian issue with my style or any of those advocated here (BTW PH, I can't sneak my recon up on anyone but, as you suggest, I buy AUX recon units since in my play style they don't live to gain experience) in the Guadalcanal campaign that comes with 8.0 is that I've played 2 scenarios and both have the same layout: river crossings. The VH's are the bridges, easy enough to sieze relatively speaking although caves stink, and then VH's on the far side of the map that I have no idea how to get to short of dashing armored cars to size them whihc doesn't feel quite right since the slow and steady approach gets me about 1/2-3/4 of the way there.

[Poopyhead]

Okay, no theory, just practice. I have never fought in the Pacific as the USMC, so I tried a practice battle and then headed off to Guadalcanal. I had an FO, two batteries of 75's, three platoons of Spec Ops (to infiltrate to those hard to reach areas), three recon groups of three 4-man patrols each (more staying power than snipers or two man teams), and three companies (type D) of Marines, but I had replaced each company's machine gun platoons with a battery of 50 cal AAA (for obvious reasons) and the mortars with a platoon of engineers (I already spent 10% of my total on indirect fire artillery with the 75 mm howitzers). Each company had a platoon of alligators and two armored cars for mobility. The unit experience average was 70.
Using the recon units as I mentioned above, I was able to find the caves, snipers and ambushes most of the time without taking fire. When I got fired on first, the patrols seldom got wiped out, because they were moving slowly. All in all, I lost 55 men (about 7% of the total force, AUX too), and caused over 300 casualties, took out most of the caves and took all of the objectives for a decisive victory.

[Jackk]

Nice play, Poopyhead.

Can I assume that you had 3 scout units out in front of each company?
And were you only moving 1 hex per turn?

[ILCK]

So the SF's got those distant VH's becuase at 1 hex per turn you'd never be able to get there. I think that was, in the end, my problem was trying to not use infiltrators and just force the corssing and then get to the other side in good order but still moving at high speeds.

[Poopyhead]

Yes, I used three scout patrols for each company and I can usually get away with moving the scout patrols 2 hexes. Spec ops (or SF) are the bomb. I did lose 12 of the 36 scouts, though.

However, I am hard core combined arms, so I revamped my Order of Battle to make each company totally mobile. I gave up one Marine platoon in each company and got nine LVT's (one platoon of 5 and one of 4 vehicles) to make the companies completely motorized (and amphibious). Each company now has two type D platoons, one engineer platoon, one Spec Ops platoon and three scout patrols. By putting these in the company, they each get an extra rally check, if they have contact. The Spec Ops infiltrate, of course. An engineer squad and a scout patrol are in each of three alligators up front, to spot and hunt for mines (I think that the engineers are best at this). The platoon leader, the 30 cal and one squad go in an alligator, two squads in the next alligator and a lone BAR squad in the third. I assign the remaining three alligators (2 from the 5 LVT platoon and 1 from the 4 LVT platoon) to the company commander and put him in with the BAR squad of the remaining platoon. This way, if I have to split the Marine platoons, it's not a problem. The scouts can either move out in front on foot (works best), or spot mounted if you are pressed for time (move the LVT, dismount, spot, remount, etc.). I got through to the village a lot faster with this mix (use lots of smoke!). I also bought an armored recon platoon, the jeeps with 50 cal's are cheeper than dismounted MG's. Oh, the Japanese overall morale broke at about turn 11.

Okay, scratch the above, I made an Order of Battle that's way better.
A0-Col Poopyhead (Of course)

B-FO and a scout patrol for security

C-Marine Company D HQ with an ammo carrier assigned directly to it (delete the 5 platoons and add the following)

D-12 SF squads (Buy one group and assign three other groups to its leader unit)

E-8x75 mm howitzers (buy one platoon and assign a second to it)

F-Engineer platoon with three scout patrols assigned

G-Armored recon platoon with 4 scout patrols assigned to it

H-Alligator platoon of eight vehicles (Do the assign thing)

I-Next Marine company D HQ (delete the 5 platoons)

J and K -two of the 2 Bn Raider platoons (With 2 BAR's and Thompson SMG)

L-Engineer platoon

M-Scout patrol group with 3 extra patrols assigned, for a total of 6 patrols

N-Alligator platoon with 8 vehicles as above.

Two more companies as above (O through Z), which uses all of the purchase points.
The entire Battalion is now mobile, you have lots of extra scout units and three more infiltrators. Except for the FO and security patrol, all of the units have a Company Commander for rally checks. The Raider units have a lot more firepower than the type D platoons.