The Bazooka (M9) Problem

[aussem]

I have one particular peeve and it relates to Bazookas (specifically the M9). I believe they are modelled horribly in this game. I am sure that they were never as lethal (in terms of penetration) as the Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck and they certainly could not penetrate the frontal armour of Tigers or Panthers (however in our game they do it with consumate ease). Additionally, they are way too accurate, they seem to hit anything in the 1-6 range with every second shot and yet a Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck never hit. Bazookas are even lethal against Inf, more so if they are in a building. I can understand why a tank with a 75mm gun is ineffectual aginst inf in the open but for them to be way less effective than a Bazooka against inf in a building is ridiculas. If anybody else thinks similarly can they help me lobby those who are in a position to modify OOBs to fix the problem?

[Voriax]

I raised this question (again) a few days ago, and Bryan is looking at it.

Mind you, a pzfaust isn't really supposed to hit anything beyond one hex range...it wasn't even designed to do so.

Voriax

[tracer]

I read in Max Hastings' book, 'Overlord', that allied troops in Normandy 'prized' captured panzerfausts because they penetrated the heavy German tanks, while their own AT weapons did not.

I believe these issues with the bazookas in SPWAW will be addressed in both of the upcoming patches.

[john g]

Originally posted by aussem
I have one particular peeve and it relates to Bazookas (specifically the M9). I believe they are modelled horribly in this game. I am sure that they were never as lethal (in terms of penetration) as the Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck and they certainly could not penetrate the frontal armour of Tigers or Panthers (however in our game they do it with consumate ease). Additionally, they are way too accurate, they seem to hit anything in the 1-6 range with every second shot and yet a Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck never hit. Bazookas are even lethal against Inf, more so if they are in a building. I can understand why a tank with a 75mm gun is ineffectual aginst inf in the open but for them to be way less effective than a Bazooka against inf in a building is ridiculas. If anybody else thinks similarly can they help me lobby those who are in a position to modify OOBs to fix the problem?

Are you using the current 7.1 oobs?

What my oobs show for heat pen (optimal pen subject to reduction)

m1 bazooka 85
m9 bazooka 115
piat 105
panzerschreck 145
panzerfaust 170

If I remember what Paul V. said about heat penetration when the heat ratings were lowered a year or so ago, only 1/3 of the time will a heat round hit with full pentration, sometimes it will hit with a lower rating sometimes it will be a dud.

The weapons now are about 80% of what they used to be in the early versions of spwaw. As for accuracy, I feel lucky if I get one hit out of four shots and I never fire beyond 3 hexes range. I like them as they are now. For a reality check, load up SPWAW v1.0 and face the multitude of infantry units with range 3 rifle grenades that take out HT's or early war tanks. I learned back then to never approach within 3 hexes of any infantry unit with a tank that I wanted to survive.

At least in US use the bazooka had a WP round, which makes it a very nasty weapon to use against infantry targets. WP will burn right thru uniforms and skin all the way down to the bone, and it will not extinguish, it will keep burning leaving the victim in agony.
thanks, John.

[rbrunsman]

This thread might get more traffic in a more popular Folder like the SPWAW General Forum or the Training Center. Or even the specific thread about v7.2 issues.

I don't think they hit 50% of the time. I didn't get any hits on my last turn.

[AbsntMndedProf]

I recall reading in Gen. James Gavin's On to Berlin that he held a very low view of the bazooka, even the ones used in the Korean War. He stated that captured panzerfausts and panzershreks were highly prized by allied troops because of their performance vs the bazooka.

Eric Maietta

[rbrunsman]

Tell that to my Pzschrek teams in my PBEMs!:( They'll gladly trade with the US.

[plloyd]

I don't know about the penetration. The M9 is using a 60mm rocket, same as the M1 and the M1A1. My reading says it is an improved version, mostly to the shape. The biggest difference, gamewise, would be in accuracy. The M1 series had iron pin sights, and the M1A1 had notched iron pin sights. The M9 had optical coincedence sights. Backblast was also better controlled on the M9.

[BryanMelvin]

M9 Bazooka:

These were fixed in the new oobs which have been sent to the powers to be and soon to be released.

The problem was with accuracy and slope of armor. The older settings were set for number of yards/meters that would penatrate armor at 90 degree slope. This was slightly off. Now, these HEAT weapons have been reset to according to better data and work much better.

In new oobs you will notice this in all AT weapons and
Guns

They will hit more and cause more armor flaking, armor damage, etc, than before. PF, PsCHK, Bazookas, Piat ranges were fixed and will be less effective at long, or max ranges, than they were before. However, if these hit at close ranges watch out
that is - if they hit :p

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by BryanMelvin
M9 Bazooka:

These were fixed in the new oobs which have been sent to the powers to be and soon to be released.

The problem was with accuracy and slope of armor. The older settings were set for number of yards/meters that would penatrate armor at 90 degree slope. This was slightly off. Now, these HEAT weapons have been reset to according to better data and work much better.

In new oobs you will notice this in all AT weapons and
Guns

They will hit more and cause more armor flaking, armor damage, etc, than before. PF, PsCHK, Bazookas, Piat ranges were fixed and will be less effective at long, or max ranges, than they were before. However, if these hit at close ranges watch out
that is - if they hit :p

Hi Bryan !

Are you talking of pure OOB corrections, or did you do some changes to the mech.exe to make them behave differently ?

[Bing]

Something to remember here: Bazooka AP was improved streadily throughout WW2, as our one-time ordnance professional verified. By late 1944, into 1945 the average M9 round would have been much better than the early models. How much is difficult to say, a lot of it depends upon the same old factor: Who is doing the shooting.

Battlefield personnel who have a real and presing need to stop an AFV will find a way to do so. Frontally, no. Through the engine compartment, yes, for just about WW2 tank I've heard of. Anybody heard of any nation's tank which could withstand a close range - I mean a few yards - M9 round square in the engine compartment. Or, barring that, dropping a satchel charge or other explosive device vertically on the engine louvers?

Bing

[BryanMelvin]

Originally posted by Panzer Leo
Hi Bryan !

Are you talking of pure OOB corrections, or did you do some changes to the mech.exe to make them behave differently ?

No changes in the Mech.exe as all those numbers makes me nervous to attempt to change

I do not have approval to change the Mech.exe so this - so far remains the same. Most of the changes were math changes inside the OOBs themselves

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by BryanMelvin
No changes in the Mech.exe as all those numbers makes me nervous to attempt to change

I do not have approval to change the Mech.exe so this - so far remains the same. Most of the changes were math changes inside the OOBs themselves

Good news for me...a new mech.exe would have been my nightmare...all H2H changes would need to be worked into the new one...uhhh

[Wombat63]

G'Day
Bazooka damage or panzerfaust or even todays 66 sraaw if they do not penetrate a target still cause damage thru an effect called spray. The round may hit the building , tank etc and dosent penetrate however the force of the hit does cause flakes and splinters to fly off of the inside of buildings and armour with a richocett effect. Just as deadly to people as a bullet probly more so because of the wounds inflicted.

Wombat