Zero vs. B-17

[Knavey]

Are these typical results in 2.2?

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/21/42

Weather: Overcast

Sub attack at 21,30

Japanese Ships
DD Oite

Allied Ships
SS S-37


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Sub attack at 16,36

Japanese Ships
PG Nikkai Maru, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-40


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Air attack on Buna , at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 9 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 6 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 6 damaged

CPT A.Howard of 435th BS is credited with kill number 3

Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 1

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

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Sub attack at 21,30

Japanese Ships
DD Mochizuki

Allied Ships
SS S-37


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Naval bombardment of Port Moresby, at 10,40

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9
Port supply hits 1


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Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 3 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Asahisan Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

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Air attack on TF, near Buna at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
PG Seikai Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

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Air attack on Buna , at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 24

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 2 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 destroyed
B-17E Fortress x 2 damaged

Runway hits 1

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

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Skip the early attack and concentrate on the air vs air. The ratio was 19 zeros lost vs 5 B-17s. According to this, only ONE B-17 was actually shot down in the air. The others were flak, operational losses or whatever. These fighter groups were all fatigue less than 40 and relatively close to the intercept point...less than 10 hexes.

Feinder and I had heard that the new patch was supposed to have caused Zeros to drive off the bombers more effectively (they did this apparently) but the ratio of kills in air to air seems a bit skewed still. 15 to 1 is still a bit atrocious.

Any comments?

[denisonh]

Fatigue less than 40?

Anything 30 and over will see higher casualties.


And what is the proportion of Zero losses by category?

And what what the experience level of the Xero pilots?

[Knavey]

Fatigue was VERY low actually...probably only one group would have been over 25.

The experience is actually very high on these groups. We are playing Scn 19 and it is only a couple of weeks into the war. The airgroups are relatively unspoiled by replacements on either side.

The odds just seemed a bit skewed to me. The only attack that managed to get one was 8:1 odds. The attack where 9 zeros were shot down also seems a bit high.

I understand the lightly armed argument vs a flying tank, but if they did indeed correct the high loss count against Zeros when flying against B-17s, then prehaps this is a fluke.

I was just wondering if everyone else was seeing a decrease in the number of zeros lost vs. b-17s.

It does appear that they did not do too much damage and were "driven off" as the new patch is supposed to do.

Oh well, off to bed gents...4 am comes early and even though its soon to be a new year, I must work during all the festivities.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!

Knavey

[Joel Billings]

Since the B-17's have to travel to their target, a lot of the "operational losses" are actually caused on the way home by the damage to the aircraft. So although the in the air stats may be low, it does sound like the zeroes did cause the death of a few more B-17's. I wasn't involved in the balancing on 2.20, but I know they tried to bring things more in line, and quite a bit of test time went into the changes.

Joel

[zed]

I have been playing 2.2 for a while, both as Allies and Japanese, I have not seen those kind of zero losses against b-17s, or any bombers, for that reason. I would go as far to say that fatigue greater than 20 is deadly.

[siRkid]

Here is a quote from the book Samurai that is about Saburo Saki the greatest Japanese fighter pilot to survive World War II.

"It was incredible out there today," Tanaka said. "We caught the Fortresses just right, and over and over I pressed home the attacks against the B-17's. At lest twice I caught a bomber perfectly. I could see the bullets hitting and the cannon shells exploding in the airplanes. But they wouldn't go down!"

Tanka looked almost haggard. "These damned bombers are impossible," he spat disgustedly, "when they work into their defensive formations."

He went on to relate how his attack had, however, disrupted the B-17s' bombing run, causing many of the bombs to fall harmlessly into the sea.


Rick

[corbulo]

Apparently August 2nd over Buna at least 4 B-17s were shot down by 9 reisens from Tainan air group at the loss of 1 zero.
I dont think that can ever happen in 2.2

[David Heath]

Yes it can and has but it is rare as it was in the real war.

David

[PBYPilot]

Here's another quote I don't think has been posted before. I did a search on the officers name with no results.

From E. Bergerud's "Fire in the Sky" [pg. 553], quoting Lt Commander Mitsugu Kofukuda, CO IJN 6th Air Group based at Buin during the Solomons Campaign:

"The four engine B-17 and B-24 bombers were, generally speaking, the most dificult enemy aircraft for the Zeros to shoot down. Because of their self sealing fuel tanks, they were extremely difficult to set afire with the Zero's 20mm cannon shells. Our fighter pilots soon learned that the B-17s and B-24s could rarely be destroyed unless the pilots or vital parts of the aircraft were hit and rendered useless. The fierce resistance with which the heavy American bombers opposed our fighters, unlike that of our own land based medium attack bombers which too often fell easy prey to enemy fighters, was a most serious problem. In my opinion, which is shared by many Japanese combat officers, the ability of the B-17 and B-24 and carry out their intended missions despite enemy fighter opposition was a deciding factor in the final outcome of the war."

Even if the mission is raiding an airbase at 100 feet. :rolleyes:

A pretty telling statement, all in all.

PBYPilot
"Slow airplanes and fast women!"

[Knavey]

Not going to argue the fact that the B-17 was a flying tank...

I am only curious as to what results everyone is getting POST 2.2 release.

I know about the huge debate prior, but hadn't really seen anything afterwards. I will keep you posted as to the next set of results...when Feinders B-17s show up again. Apparently I did maul them pretty bad if add in the operational losses.

Thanks,

[siRkid]

Here is the AAr form th elast air battle I had with B-17s in a PBEM. Version 2.2 Don't forget FOW.


Air attack on Lunga , at 38,40

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 28
A6M3 Zero x 14
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 24
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 8
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 2

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 13
B-24D Liberator x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 12 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 9 damaged
A6M3 Zero x 6 destroyed
A6M3 Zero x 4 damaged
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 12 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 5 damaged
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 2 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIb Nick x 6 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 1 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 1 damaged
Ki-48 Lily x 3 destroyed
Ki-48 Lily x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 4 destroyed
B-17E Fortress x 10 damaged
B-24D Liberator x 1 destroyed
B-24D Liberator x 25 damaged

1LT E.Porter of 30th BS is credited with kill number 6

CPT S.Howard of 394th BS is KILLED

Japanese ground losses:
Men lost 51

Airbase hits 4
Runway hits 13

[XPav]

How many B-17s and B-24s suffered operational losses?

[siRkid]

Originally posted by XPav
How many B-17s and B-24s suffered operational losses?

Too late to tell.

Rick

[OG_Gleep]

What's with the Ghost planes? A bunch of times I have seen the overall count of planes destroyed or damaged exceeding the planes participating in the combat.

Two examples of this:

1. Over PM they sent a massive attack on my CV TF docked there, two types of planes participating on my side were Wirraways and P39. There was only a handful of each, most of the Fighters on my side were F4F's. Anyhow, the Zero's made short work of the Wirraways and P39's, and destroyed all of them. Halfway through the battle, these two groups start killing again. The Wirraways damaged 4, and the P39's got 6 kills (I think against Val's).

2. Total Planes damaged and destroyed exceeds the amount participating, like in the example above.

I can understand the numbers not matching for the Jap's, but your own numbers being off?

[OG_Gleep]

Also, how do you guys Copy N paste the AAR's?

[SoulBlazer]

Hits are reported if the plane is damaged more then once. Hence, you have more planes damaged then actually flew in many cases. It just increases the chance the planes are not going to make it home (often true for the level bombers).

[siRkid]

Both players see the same combat report so the FOW is applied to both sides even palying AI. It would not be worth the programing effort to make Human vs. AI diffrent.

Rick

[Knavey]

I also believe that if you damage a plane and also shoot it down, it counts it in each category. But, I may be wrong there.

That AAR appears to show the losses are still pretty high for the fighters vs. the B-17s.

Any other takers on a recent bombing raid AAR?

[Feinder]

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Air attack on Buna , at 12,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 196

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 142 destroyed
A6M2 Zero x 54 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress x 1 damaged

PO Gucci Kamichawa is shot down and KILLED.
PO Toni Makizuwu is shot down and KILLED.
PO Saki Kamikaze is shot down and KILLED.
PO Sushi Fubuki is shot down and KILLED.
PO Oite Robimu is shot down and KILLED.
PO Hamu Bukufawa is shot down and KILLED.
FO Pani Panjami is shot down and KILLED.
FO Sashimi Secki is shot down and KILLED.
FO Nagigawa Pungawi is shot down and KILLED.
CPT A.Howard of 1337th BS is credited with kill number 125.

Airbase hits 6
Runway hits 12

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-17E Fortress at 100 feet

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Your pilots SUCK Knavey!

Hurry up and make your turn, I've got some 1000 lb. lovin' for Yamato!

:^P
-F-

[tanjman]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep
Also, how do you guys Copy N paste the AAR's?

The file combatreport.txt is located in the UV\Save folder and can be opened with any text editor such as MS Notepad. Be aware that the file gets overwriten every turn there is combat. I (most players as well from what I can tell) alt-tab after ever turn and copy the file to another folder (named after the scenario I'm playing) and rename it DDMMMYY AAR.txt for future reference.