KB after PH strike

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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treespider
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by treespider »

Mr Frag said:

It would be interesting to adjust CV loadouts downwards to smaller bombs after the CV reaches < 50% of it's ordinance points.

Think it would enforce realistic results coupled with allowing people to stick around longer then normal should they choose.

Picture your day 3 strikes on PH with your Kates only having 250kg bombs instead of 800's and torpedoes ... you can stay if you want to ... but the return on investment is somewhat more realistic.

Or a tweak in the code to the formula used to calculate MAX sorties.....currently according to the manual about 10 per aircraft not counting CAP and Search missions, which are not counted in the sortie calculation for some reason, perhaps if they were people wouldn't put 90% cap up over their TF or be able to linger with their CV's
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Mike Scholl
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Not completely, as the IJN had operated it's CV's off the China Coast many times in previous years. With that as "cover", and a "night speed run" to get into range, the Philippines IS a possible target for the 7th.
But some Allied reaction should be available because they WOULD know where KB was. It's the game's "suprise" movement bonus that is abuseable, as it allows "suprise" movement in areas where suprise was totally impossible, even absurd.

"Absurd" is in the eye of the beholder. The real mind state of the Allies on Dec 8 1941 (I only use Tokyo time in this theater) is impossible to simulate well - real players know too much. The US really did lose the KB - it is absurd to think it might not have appeared ANYWHERE by surprise - as Adm Kimmel stated. RN signals intel at Singapore found every Japanese merchant would be in Japanese waters by Dec 8 1941 - was not that a clue this was a very unusual date? Forbidden to share that datum with USN, the captain in charge shared it with us anyway - but did we pay attention to his warning? Not very well.

"Absurd" is in the situation. Are you really going to maintain that KB struggled across the 37th parallel of the North Pacific in December on it's way to Pearl Harbor just because Nagumo thought it would be a "fun way to go"? Or might it have something to do with a desire not to be spotted on it's way to deliver a "suprise" attack? The Pacific is a big ocean, but there is a lot of traffic on it. Nagumo couldn't fulfill his orders if anything spotted and reported his presense. He had to stay where no-one else with any choice would be. Or he had to be where no-one would see anything odd in his presense. The game doesn't reflect this very real concern for the Japanese..., it simply allows a "radius of action" for Japanese movements. And that radius includes some targets/positions that there is NO WAY for KB to have approached unsighted and achieve "suprise".


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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Vincenzo_Beretta »

ORIGINAL: rroberson

<shrug> You give me the tools. Are you know going to dictate how I use them?

This reminds me of some of the more heathed debates ever on the "Harpoon" forums (on other sites): there were dudes who argued that you had to use your "tools" in a way and only a way. I wonder if USN thought the same after the first kamikaze attack: "Not fair! Planes should drop ORDINANCE, not themselves!!"

In my games vs. humans I like to mess up with my opponent's mind. Sometimes an unexpected move, if pulled well, can give you a psychological advantage, or even cause the other guy to react with a mistake, even if by all means the move itself is not very smart.
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by rroberson »

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
ORIGINAL: rroberson

<shrug> You give me the tools. Are you know going to dictate how I use them?

This reminds me of some of the more heathed debates ever on the "Harpoon" forums (on other sites): there were dudes who argued that you had to use your "tools" in a way and only a way. I wonder if USN thought the same after the first kamikaze attack: "Not fair! Planes should drop ORDINANCE, not themselves!!"

In my games vs. humans I like to mess up with my opponent's mind. Sometimes an unexpected move, if pulled well, can give you a psychological advantage, or even cause the other guy to react with a mistake, even if by all means the move itself is not very smart.

lol agreeded.
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madmickey
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by madmickey »

Because the Jap player knows that US torpedoes do not work it allow the KB to reattack Pearl something that the Japanese would not have done because of the fear of sub attacking carriers.
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Oznoyng »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

It would be interesting to adjust CV loadouts downwards to smaller bombs after the CV reaches < 50% of it's ordinance points.

Think it would enforce realistic results coupled with allowing people to stick around longer then normal should they choose.

Picture your day 3 strikes on PH with your Kates only having 250kg bombs instead of 800's and torpedoes ... you can stay if you want to ... but the return on investment is somewhat more realistic.

For example Zuikaku had stowage for:

45 torpedoes
90 800k bombs
306 250k bombs
540 60k bombs

And carried 27 Vals(or Judys) and 18-27 Kates(or Jills)

So about enough for 2 full strikes with torpedos.

Given the rolls I've seen on PH attacks, I would say it would take about 6 strikes on PH before the torpedos ran out.

Also given the rolls I've seen on PH attacks, staying for 5 days is fine as far as I am concerned. There just is no other way that the Japanese PH attack will come close to historical results.
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Charles2222
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

You are wrong. All I am saying is that the US military branches WERE surprised, but not FDR. Putting the fleet on no alarm in a tenous situation to an outpost is best described as a bait. Without the continous pressure (one might say provocation) on Japan, the IJN would have not attacked before they handled the RN and the dutch IMO.
Japan had a tendency to attack out of the blue and without or at the same time of declaration of war. ALL senior members of the US armed forces should have been alert of this and knowing about the continous rise of tensions between the two states. These facts make your statements about surprise untenable.

The US forces were blind on the Day of Infamy, but not because their opponent have blinded them, buit because they have closed their eyes. Why, it remains a mystery to me.

Wait now I see that you are a 'cowboy' from Texas. One of your mates have refused to wear the blue beret of the UN in a peacekeeping mission. Just cuz he has sweared on the 'Stars 'n' Stripes' and no stinkin' blue rag. [:D]All the above is cancelled you are right, amigo mio. Just keep the colt in the holster.[&o][&o]

I'm unsure what to make of that post exactly, but yeah, what red-blooded texan wouldn't swear off being a UN lackey?

You don't know the mystery of the closed eyes? I just explained it to you[;)]. It's called neutrality. That's what I was describing (AKA the state of not being prepared for war). In general, it's the mentality that WWI was the war to end all wars and that's why so many disarmed and fairly much ignored Germany re-arming. Same for Japan, you just hope that Japan isn't stupid enough to attack you and you can keep on with your little neutrality. In my mind the lack of preparedness on PH, or anywhere else for that matter, had a lot more to do with the US belief in believing itself invincible, that everyone else would think that same way (well losing the Hawaiian islands wasn't even true US territory anyway) and also about trying to stay out of the war. Look at how long the USA ignored the German torpedoing off their own coasts, and even after pH it took the "Germans" to declare war on the US. What's really weird is that they would totally ignore Germany having already done a PH on their merchant shipping and then not even throw Germany in on their declaration of war with Japan; just totally odd. It's as if they were afraid people would criticise them for jumping on two nations at once, and had to hope that Germany would do what they did (combine that with them then focusing their main attention on defeating Germany - not a whole lot of logic).

If Roosevelt really did know the time and place of the attack, if you're suggesting he knew that much, just remember that even the Japanese themselves had codes in place to call off the attack in case the diplomats succeeded. You would have to believe Roosevelt had 100% reliable intelligence, all the time, to think that and we know that he did not (but whether he did at the period or not is questionable). In any event if you're saying he had more general information and just knew they were going to make a big attack somewhere, and then didn't alert anyone, I'm not entirely sure a president has ever done that. Not saying it might not be a good idea, but in dealing with the military did he really want to start ordering them around about when to be on the alert and when to relax? Wouldn't he be inclined to believe, at least by the books, that they were always alert, and that to tell them to be alert would be to suggest they were not, therefore insulting them? You see how that 'might' have worked? Surely a politician would be in on some pretty dumb games similar to that.

In any event, I think the idea that Roosevelt set them up as rope-a-dope in PH is pretty much baloney (just because you know, or expect something is going to happen, and don't tell anybody, that doesn't mean that you "set them up" because A) nobody can tell the future and B) because it's at worst negligence, not setup, that you could blame Roosevelt for in that situation). One for the reason that I just mentioned, that surely the mighty US was always on alert, especially since they were generally expecting Japan to pull something with someone, somewhere, but also for him to really rope-a-dope them, if that's what you're saying, he would actually have to order the base to pretty much standdown (and I have never heard he did, even indirectly). Whether he was certain of that attack or not, or in more the general idea that Japan was being aggressive or not, in order to really rope-a-dope somebody wouldn't qualify if he just merely let things take their course and hope the guys were ready if it came. Sure to alert them would be to possibly dissuade the Japanese (and let Japan intercept the messages), but from what I've read of Japanese spies in Hawaii they knew the US was unprepared in PH for a good length of time. Roosevelt, if he was all-knowing, wouldn't have risked anything at all just by telling them like a day in advance, because it would take quite a good while for KB to know the status of PH had changed. Just my gut feeling, but even if the Japanese knew that PH was ready, still without a DoW mind you, I doubt it would have mattered too much to them, as they were convinced they had to sink what fleet they could at PH.

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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Akos Gergely »

We have just adjusted this in our games and it works out superbly (at least on my side). I figured out long time ago that most USN carriers never had more than 45-50 torpedoes maximum(!) on board, but usually they carried much less, so on the order of 30-35, that is enough for two full VT squad strikes only.

On the other hand avgas is an even bigger limiting factor, which is not counted in the game at all....
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Charles2222
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: csatahajos

Charles,

American people are not stupid, and they weren't as well back in 1941, nor were their leaders. After a few month of diplomatic manuvering and a fully raging war going on in Europe it was more than evident that the peace with Japan was no more than a paper term. If I remember correctly all oil shipments for Japan were denied and most Japanese bank accounts in US banks were frozen...so not exactly two nations in a peaceful friendship.

God forbid, but it was the same as for example if an Iranian diesel/electric-sub with their Skhvals would sink or cripple a USN super carrier today....

If you can do all those things with Japan and still not be militarily prepared for what happened, that's pretty stupid to me, but then posturing around in the neutral garb tends to cause such half measures.
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Civilization (PC) has a really nice feature. As a democracy you get a whole bunch of bonuses, but you cant declare war on anybody. IMHO it is in the nature of democracies. You dont start a war, you only finish them. Well we can send some prize to Bush jr cuz he just made this statment history. Ha has started a war and someone will finish it. For sure it wont be him. So the japs could have taken for granted that the US wont attack. IMO Hitler's greatest strategic mistake was to declare war on the US. FDR have had to try much harder to achieve an incident like PH, with the nazis.

Yeah, but in CIV (pre-CIV4) you can't run the war as a democracy either. How many turns in CIV3 would equate to WWII (ignore the fact that the shortest turns are 1 year)? With the scale of that war you would probably have to be in a democracy at least 100 turns; no way the war-weariness would stay manageable.
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

Given the rolls I've seen on PH attacks, I would say it would take about 6 strikes on PH before the torpedos ran out.

Also given the rolls I've seen on PH attacks, staying for 5 days is fine as far as I am concerned. There just is no other way that the Japanese PH attack will come close to historical results.

Agreed. But sadly no one pays attention to that.
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Nomad »

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

Given the rolls I've seen on PH attacks, I would say it would take about 6 strikes on PH before the torpedos ran out.

Also given the rolls I've seen on PH attacks, staying for 5 days is fine as far as I am concerned. There just is no other way that the Japanese PH attack will come close to historical results.

Agreed. But sadly no one pays attention to that.

Well, that isn't really true pauk, a lot of us pay attention, we just can't do a darn thing about it.
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by pauk »

no? but i see that lots of guys above here are very local about additional limiting Japanese side.... damn, i've promised myself not to go into any new discussion (simply just don't worth it)...

Nothing personal Nomand it wasnt point at you... i have more important question for you...

what's going on with PzB/yours? game against Andy Mac?

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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by treespider »

Also given the rolls I've seen on PH attacks, staying for 5 days is fine as far as I am concerned. There just is no other way that the Japanese PH attack will come close to historical results.


So what should the historical results be??? In game terms all of three ships were sunk at Pearl Harbor... Arizona, Oklahoma and Utah. It takes you 6 strikes to sink three ships?


BB39 Arizona - one torpedo, eight bomb hits - Sunk
BB44 California - two torpedo hits, one bomb hit - "Sunk" - later raised in game terms not Sunk.
BB46 Maryland - two bomb hits - damaged
BB36 Nevada - one torp., 5 bombs - heavily damaged
BB37 Oklahoma - five torpedo hits - in game terms effectively Sunk
BB38 Pennsylvania - one bomb hit
BB 43 Tennessee - two bomb hits
BB 48 West Virginia - two bombs, 5-7 torps, "sunk" raised and later returned to service
CL 50 Helena - one torpedo
CL 48 One near bomb hit with collateral damage
CL 7 Raleigh - one torpedo and one bomb hit, heavily damaged.
DD 373 Shaw three bomb hits bow blown off
DD 372 one bomb hit one near miss heavily damaged
DD 375 Downes two bomb hits heavily damaged
DD 388 one bomb near by damaged
CM4 Oglala One torpedo, "sunk", raised and repaired
AV4 Curtiss - One bomb hit
YT9 Sotoyomo sunk, raised and repaired
AG16 Utah - two torpedos capsized left at bottom
AR4 Vestal two bomb hits heavily damaged
YFD-2 sunk, raised and repaired

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by Nomad »

ORIGINAL: pauk

no? but i see that lots of guys above here are very local about additional limiting Japanese side.... damn, i've promised myself not to go into any new discussion (simply just don't worth it)...

Nothing personal Nomand it wasnt point at you... i have more important question for you...

what's going on with PzB/yours? game against Andy Mac?


oops, forgot to hit the smiley( I posted that at 5:13 AM my time [:)] ). I would say that the PH stirke does tend to be a bit light on damage and that two days may be needed to achieve the desired result. I wish they could put some limits on both sides to bring the game back to a more historically alligned simulation. I don't want a history lesson, but it would be nice to have possibilities at least be in the realm of plausable. Note that is for both sides pauk, I am not a fanboy of either side, just some one who likes games and the pacific war in particular. I am not a fan of "Fantasy Warfare in the Pacific"

I can not discuss that game right now or maybe ever. You would have to ask PzB about it.
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pauk
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: treespider

So what should the historical results be??? In game terms all of three ships were sunk at Pearl Harbor... Arizona, Oklahoma and Utah. It takes you 6 strikes to sink three ships?

greetings, i would just say that i've started PBEM 6 or 7 times and only in one i manage to sunk one BB (i would not comment other ships damage but i can assure you that almost all would be ready for service in year or so).
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by mogami »

Hi, Result from running "Historic" turn 1 scenario 15

Day Air attack on Pearl Harbor , at 112,68

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 76
D3A Val x 126
B5N Kate x 143

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 4
P-26A x 5
P-36A Mohawk x 2
P-40B Tomahawk x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed, 4 damaged
D3A Val: 6 destroyed, 43 damaged
B5N Kate: 9 destroyed, 33 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 6 destroyed
P-26A: 7 destroyed
P-36A Mohawk: 11 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 43 destroyed
B-18A Bolo: 9 destroyed
PBY Catalina: 21 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 6 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 5
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB California, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Helm, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, on fire
DD Bagley, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Litchfield, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Alchiba, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DM Pruitt, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Helena, Bomb hits 1
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AV Curtiss, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Conyngham, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AV Tangier, Torpedo hits 1, on fire


Allied ground losses:
326 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 42
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 168

BB Oklahoma sunk (gone from game)
BB Arizona damage equal to being sunk and then raised.
(any ship with damage above 90 sys was most likley saved from sinking by the "raise sunk ship" routine.

Have to run next turn to see if any other ships sink (gone)
At least 3 BB will require over a year to repair (from time they reach west Coast repair yard)

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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by RUPD3658 »

None of the above. I always strike Manilla. It is a much better target than PH.
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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by mogami »

Hi, The reason for the PH strike is to prevent the USN from attacking the very weak Japanese Central Pacific bases while Japan is commited to SRA.
The only ships in Manila are old submarines with rotten torpedos that will not prevent Japanese operations in SRA and support ships that will be sunk by LBA.

(It does not really matter if PH "sinks" 3 BB or not as long as it cripples the battle line long enough for Japan to get the defense of Central Pacific in place. )

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RE: KB after PH strike

Post by RUPD3658 »

A few Betty sqaudrons will atke care of any ships that come out to play. Plus who said that I commited the entire KB to Manilla? There may be a CV or 2 waiting for a response from the US.

It has been beat to death on these boards but attacking in the PI puts the KB in a position to support the DEI/Singapore operations and speeds up the fall of these areas. Most all US planning assumed that this is where the first strike would be. They just did forsee carriers being part of the plan.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

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