ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil
BTW, one limited use it saw in 1945 was occupation of southern Sakhalin and the Kuriles...not much but something.
Actually it was very important for the Russians to control those islands during the cold war. Without them, they would have had to sail their Pacific SSNs right by Japanese controlled islands (and probably with US sonar nets like around Greenland-Iceland-UK).
The Russians STILL haven't given back those islands. We should cut all food sales to Russia until they return those islands! [:@][:@][:@]
I would like to comment not on the Russians' shooting navy but on the merchie fleet, which was rather sizable. What's more, the Japanese allowed it free passage from the West Coast to Vladivostok right down to the very end in the interests of not agrivating the bear over Lend Lease issues. If anything, this might be useful to build up the Russian land forces with American supplies.
As for Tankerace's comment on the destuction of the Russian fleets, I beg to differ on one count. The Baltic fleet was bottled up in Kronshtadt but was never destroyed. They monkeyed around with it all through the war, removing guns to be sighted on land, etc. and German bombing caused notable damage to a few ships. But the fleet itself was alive and kicking in time to support operations in Courland, N. Prussia and around Konigsberg.
"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok
Probably flogging a dead horse, but can you shed any light on why the Beaufighter Mk 21 arrival date is remaining as 1/43. Histoically the first DAP Beaufighter Mk 21 (A8-1) did not fly untill 26/5/44 .
Cheers
"Bombers outpacing fighters - you've got to bloody well laugh!" Australian Buffalo pilot - Singapore
"Did the russians even use their ships against japan when they declared war against them in 1945??? "
As noted above they used their Forces (Naval) to in vade all the Kuirle Islands, and their was some heavy fighting onsome of the islands, the Island chanin is long and the capacity to do this is compleatly lacking from the game using Historick units to do so.
"Probably flogging a dead horse, but can you shed any light on why the Beaufighter Mk 21 arrival date is remaining as 1/43. Histoically the first DAP Beaufighter Mk 21 (A8-1) did not fly untill 26/5/44 . "
Good Question.....
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Thanks Pry for taking the time to read all that I posted, it took me a long time to do it and I appricate it.
SCW Beta Support Team
Beta Team Member for:
WPO
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Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view
As noted above they used their Forces (Naval) to in vade all the Kuirle Islands, and their was some heavy fighting onsome of the islands, the Island chanin is long and the capacity to do this is compleatly lacking from the game using Historick units to do so.
I think you need to make a distinction here. They did not use their naval forces as we would consider it. Not one capital ship sortied anywhere. What did happen is they used large numbers of naval personnel in small boats. It would be like saying Japan sortied their entire fleet of barges to do some invasions.
I do not personaly have a source that shows the compasation of the Naval forces, but I do know that Large Army Units were transported to these locations and that the distances were not short, and that several islands were asaulted, and that to transport a similar sized force of US Troops woudl require a relativly large for of ships, so all I am realy saying is that the capacity to do this is compleatly lacking from the game using Historicaly corect units.
I also know others more knowlagable than myself on this subject have posted extensive info on the subject and it seams to me that their were a considerable number of ships at hand, certainly suficient to suport an operation like this, espichaly considering the time and place, when Japan had almost no Navy left in working order.
SCW Beta Support Team
Beta Team Member for:
WPO
PC
CF
AE
WiTE
Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view
That may be the reason that the Soviets actually followed up on their committment ( and the use of the 2 A-bombs probably helped too), they did say at the last major conference (Yalta?) that it would take them 3 months after the end of the war in Europe to reposition to attack Japan. August 9 is basically 3 months after the end of the war in Europe.
ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil
BTW, one limited use it saw in 1945 was occupation of southern Sakhalin and the Kuriles...not much but something.
Actually it was very important for the Russians to control those islands during the cold war. Without them, they would have had to sail their Pacific SSNs right by Japanese controlled islands (and probably with US sonar nets like around Greenland-Iceland-UK).
The Russians STILL haven't given back those islands. We should cut all food sales to Russia until they return those islands! [:@][:@][:@]
I think you should just cut them [;)] Our domestic food producers would certainly appreciate the boost [:D]
On a more serious note, I am seriously upset about the decision not to include the Pacific Fleet, enough to start having doubts about buying the game [:(] Yes, it's a minor issue from gameplay standpoint, but it's very upsetting nonetheless.
ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil
BTW, one limited use it saw in 1945 was occupation of southern Sakhalin and the Kuriles...not much but something.
Actually it was very important for the Russians to control those islands during the cold war. Without them, they would have had to sail their Pacific SSNs right by Japanese controlled islands (and probably with US sonar nets like around Greenland-Iceland-UK).
The Russians STILL haven't given back those islands. We should cut all food sales to Russia until they return those islands! [:@][:@][:@]
I think you should just cut them [;)] Our domestic food producers would certainly appreciate the boost [:D]
On a more serious note, I am seriously upset about the decision not to include the Pacific Fleet, enough to start having doubts about buying the game [:(] Yes, it's a minor issue from gameplay standpoint, but it's very upsetting nonetheless.
Now thats what I call shooting yourself in the foot. Your going to miss out on hours and hours of quality gaming. [8|]
Well Onime, I never said it was destroyed, but rather put out of action. While their submarines saw extensive use (and casualties), the Russian surface Navy was severely damaged. After the Marat being sunk by Stukageschwader 5 (or was it 2) on June 22, 1941, the other two Gangut class battleships were severely damaged throught the war, and with the exception of helping defend Leningrad, saw no extensive use. In fact, thanks to their being ineffective, and Marat being sunk, Stalin forbade any large scale action by the surface warships, much like the "Furher Befel" which marked the death of the German surface fleet in 1943.
Knocked out does not mean destroyed, rather it means they were removed from making a significant contribution to the war effort. And this is exactly what had happened to both the Baltic and Black Sea fleets.
Soviet submarines, however, claim around 1200 ships sunk, 600 merchie and 600 warships, for the loss of over 107 submarines sunk. While it sounds impressive, it is an extremely high casualty rate, of nearly 12 ships for every one submarine sunk.
In addition, since I said knocked out early on, that is because all my sources state nothing but losses from 42-43. I have no definative information as to their operations late in the war, but I would guess they would be fairly operational, owing to the decerease in German Naval and air assets which caused the losses of 1941-43.
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
Bit of an unfrozen caveman player as I stopped playing for a few months waiting for a patch with official OOB fixes....
So resurrecting this thread.
1) Why, exactly, will 2nd Mar Div never be fixed? (My solution is to simply have US Marine Divisions start the game as individually arriving regiments with a separate HQ; granted this makes them different from all the other divisions in the game, but they WERE routinely split up for long periods, and they were VERY large divisions, relatively. )
2) Why, exactly, does hardly anyone seem to care about this issue, by a HUGE margin the most important OOB issue in terms of effect on game balance, and instead be obsessed with relatively irrelevant stuff like the Soviet Navy, etc.?
Bottom line is, on Dec. 7 there simply wasn't a fully equipped, fully manned, super-elite Marine Division avaliable to the US to be immediately shipped out; there wasn't even anything CLOSE to that.
At least the fixes to the NZ land OOB didn't make the "DOA" list, thankfully.
In addition, since I said knocked out early on, that is because all my sources state nothing but losses from 42-43. I have no definative information as to their operations late in the war, but I would guess they would be fairly operational, owing to the decerease in German Naval and air assets which caused the losses of 1941-43.
No, they weren`t, at least not in the Baltic. Only MTBs/MGBs and subs of the Soviet Baltflot were operational, regarding surface combatants above 400 ts of displacement the Soviets remained completely passive and the Baltic remained pretty much a German pond right up to VE day.
The Black Seas Fleet was pretty active with all major units until the Luftwaffe sunk several of their ships and Stalin forbade the use of the survivors, however small vessels and subs remained very active.
The Northern Fleet did sub operations and some local escorting; they were hampered by ships unsuited to the conditions in the Polar Sea. I think one of their newer destroyers actually broke up in heavy seas. The Northern Fleet received some older Allied ships on a lend-lease basis (ten four-pipers and HMS Royal Sovereign transferred from the RN and USS Milwaukee from the USN). The destroyers were apparently used to some degree, but the BB apparently was left to rot. When it was returned to Britain after the war, the 15in guns were found to be loaded, and the shells were rusted to the barrels.
You know, one ahistorical way to get around the problems with coding the Soviet fleet during the period of Soviet neutrality would be to just set all the relevant fleet and merchant units to arrive on the production schedule, on August 1, 1945. Nobody Japanese player ever invades the Soviet Union early, and the few who have attempted it have supposedly been arse-whipped for their troubles.
