Exciting update to 2by3Games' developers journal

[Tankerace]

But to connect it you'd have to have War in the Mediterranean [:D]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

But to connect it you'd have to have War in the Mediterranean [:D]

Yes when I say war in Europe I mean the rest of the war outside of the Pacific. [:)]

connecting the Atlantic with the Pacific!

[33Vyper]

it would be a worthy purchase to get a WITP WAW type game

[Tankerace]

I know I'd buy it... but OMG, think of how long the freaking turns would take. Japanese fanboys gribe about 4 hours setting up Pearl Harbor. COuld be a nightmare. A pleasant one though.

[33Vyper]

ahhhh yes.....sail the Bismarck right in to Tokyo Bay

[Tankerace]

Or Kraut U boats hunting off Pearl, Japanese I boats in the med. Lots of good stuff there.

Wait, imagine this. Assume it had some never were designs thrown in.

A Combined fleet of Bismarck, Tirpitz, Yamato, Musashi, Shinano (as a battlewagon) and the H-39 designs, meeting a fleet of Iowas, Montanas, and the Vanguard. Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[33Vyper]

[testarossa]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Hijack! SH3, can't wait![;)]

Uhumm. That is UBI title, they'll ship it halfbaked and will ask you to support beta testing financially, the way they did with Pacific fighters.

[Tankerace]

No, it was Oleg Madox and 1C that did PF half backed. They already said before it got sent to UBI that they didn't want a third disk, so they would ship and then make a patch.

[TheHellPatrol]

To think there will be no "Med" version is enough to make this grown man cry[:(]. I do realize, however, that Witp is a true masterpiece and is a one of a kind wargame that will never (apparently) be surpassed. A year from now when i'm on a new campaign with patch version 1.x i will still be nowhere near growing tired of it and still learning. I will gladly purchase any titles coming in the future as i'm sure that is what i will play my remaining years on this Earth, and to think a Civil war game will come to fruition is a big plus as i feel confident they will do it justice. To quote a song from the 80's..."you don't know what you got, 'till it's gone" and i am grateful to have had the exposure to Witp and the chance to enjoy it "before" i need Ginko supplements to finish one turn[:D]. Thanks Joel, you have touched many of us old boardgamers with your unique products and i am eternally grateful.

[ADavidB]

Hmmm - the developer's journal isn't opening for me, so here are my thoughts based upon what I've read in the thread and what I've seen in some of the other forums...

I bought Pacwar a dozen years ago and enjoyed it for years until the "improvements" killed it in the late 90's.

I bought tthe follow-up SSI game that was a graphic toy simulation of the war in the Pacific and returned it for my money back.

I bought UV when it came out and enjoyed it quite a lot until WitP came out.

I bought and enjoyed WitP a lot and expect to continue to enjoy it.

I'm not intending at this time to buy WAW. From what I've read in the WAW forum and on the official preview pages it reminds me too much of that SSI game that I sent back.

I wasn't a fan of Gary's War in Russia even when I d/led it for free - I wouldn't buy it then, I had it off of my harddrive within 24 hours and I won't buy a new version.

I'm not a fan of Civil War games, so I won't be spending money on any.

I would have liked to have bought a MedWar game.

I'm sorry that 2x3 and Matrix still aren't getting rich and I hope that their new business strategy helps them reach their goals, but they aren't advertising anything that will take any money out of my pocket. And frankly, no war game is ever going to be a "Halo 2" as far as making money is concerned, so maybe they need to re-think their expectations.

Dave Baranyi

[PeckingFury]

Just release Combat Leader so I can sleep at night.[:@]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Hmmm - the developer's journal isn't opening for me, so here are my thoughts based upon what I've read in the thread and what I've seen in some of the other forums...

I bought Pacwar a dozen years ago and enjoyed it for years until the "improvements" killed it in the late 90's.

I bought tthe follow-up SSI game that was a graphic toy simulation of the war in the Pacific and returned it for my money back.

I bought UV when it came out and enjoyed it quite a lot until WitP came out.

I bought and enjoyed WitP a lot and expect to continue to enjoy it.

I'm not intending at this time to buy WAW. From what I've read in the WAW forum and on the official preview pages it reminds me too much of that SSI game that I sent back.

I wasn't a fan of Gary's War in Russia even when I d/led it for free - I wouldn't buy it then, I had it off of my harddrive within 24 hours and I won't buy a new version.

I'm not a fan of Civil War games, so I won't be spending money on any.

I would have liked to have bought a MedWar game.

I'm sorry that 2x3 and Matrix still aren't getting rich and I hope that their new business strategy helps them reach their goals, but they aren't advertising anything that will take any money out of my pocket. And frankly, no war game is ever going to be a "Halo 2" as far as making money is concerned, so maybe they need to re-think their expectations.

Dave Baranyi

No reason why 2by3, like Nimitz, had to listen to MacArthur and assault Japan from a single approach. The fact that Nimitz withstood the pressure and stayed the course meant that the Central Pacific Drive augmented Dugout Doug's. So, why not approach the problem in two directions instead of one? Produce a WaW for the ignorant masses to play with and grab a sliver of the lucrative RT market, and the money goes to 2by3 with a portion going to the development of games for wargamers. Ours may well be a niche market but 2by3 at least have a near monopoly on it. No point in everyone running in the same direction.

Like my family used to do at BBQs, give the kids hot dogs and give the adults steak.[8D]

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

Hmmm - the developer's journal isn't opening for me, so here are my thoughts based upon what I've read in the thread and what I've seen in some of the other forums...

I bought Pacwar a dozen years ago and enjoyed it for years until the "improvements" killed it in the late 90's.

I bought tthe follow-up SSI game that was a graphic toy simulation of the war in the Pacific and returned it for my money back.

I bought UV when it came out and enjoyed it quite a lot until WitP came out.

I bought and enjoyed WitP a lot and expect to continue to enjoy it.

I'm not intending at this time to buy WAW. From what I've read in the WAW forum and on the official preview pages it reminds me too much of that SSI game that I sent back.

I wasn't a fan of Gary's War in Russia even when I d/led it for free - I wouldn't buy it then, I had it off of my harddrive within 24 hours and I won't buy a new version.

I'm not a fan of Civil War games, so I won't be spending money on any.

I would have liked to have bought a MedWar game.

I'm sorry that 2x3 and Matrix still aren't getting rich and I hope that their new business strategy helps them reach their goals, but they aren't advertising anything that will take any money out of my pocket. And frankly, no war game is ever going to be a "Halo 2" as far as making money is concerned, so maybe they need to re-think their expectations.

Dave Baranyi

Hmmm.... Seems to me these three guys have done just fine on their expectations. From what I can gather their expected final sales are going to be somewhere around 10,000 units at roughly $70.00 a pop. That's $700,000 minus the pittance DR and Matrix takes divided amongst three guys for something like five or six manyears of work. That's not getting rich, but it's not a bad return on a labor of love. And remember, WiTP isn't by any means the only iron these three have in the fire. Kind of puts the kabash on the crowd that thinks these guys are living on Cheetos while giving us wargames. Other than devising more efficient development environment, I'd say their business model and expectations are quite sane....

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Hmmm.... Seems to me these three guys have done just fine on their expectations. From what I can gather their expected final sales are going to be somewhere around 10,000 units at roughly $70.00 a pop. That's $700,000 minus the pittance DR and Matrix takes divided amongst three guys for something like five or six manyears of work. That's not getting rich, but it's not a bad return on a labor of love. And remember, WiTP isn't by any means the only iron these three have in the fire. Kind of puts the kabash on the crowd that thinks these guys are living on Cheetos while giving us wargames. Other than devising more efficient development environment, I'd say their business model and expectations are quite sane....

You also have to factor in the cost of people besides the 3 of 2by3: Mike Wood seems to have been spending most of his time on it for quite a while, also the cost of the supplying the art. I don't know how the Matrix/2by3 finances are organised for WitP but I doubt that the portion of DR and Matrix added together will be a "pittance". But I agree 2by3 probably aren't living on Cheetos, whatever they are.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

Hmmm.... Seems to me these three guys have done just fine on their expectations. From what I can gather their expected final sales are going to be somewhere around 10,000 units at roughly $70.00 a pop. That's $700,000 minus the pittance DR and Matrix takes divided amongst three guys for something like five or six manyears of work. That's not getting rich, but it's not a bad return on a labor of love. And remember, WiTP isn't by any means the only iron these three have in the fire. Kind of puts the kabash on the crowd that thinks these guys are living on Cheetos while giving us wargames. Other than devising more efficient development environment, I'd say their business model and expectations are quite sane....

You also have to factor in the cost of people besides the 3 of 2by3: Mike Wood seems to have been spending most of his time on it for quite a while, also the cost of the supplying the art. I don't know how the Matrix/2by3 finances are organised for WitP but I doubt that the portion of DR and Matrix added together will be a "pittance". But I agree 2by3 probably aren't living on Cheetos, whatever they are.

The "art" is a service supplied by Matrix. Agreed, though, they probably do not consider what Matrix or DR charges a "pittance" anymore than I consider the charges by my ISP's "business" services...

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Yep, agreed, with most of the player input organised and issued through HQs, but that's something for the next revamped PacWar incarnation. You are talking major rewrite and design approach here.

I simply am bowing to some realities (some may think it a dead horse, but hey)based on the fact that this patch 1.4 or whatever is the swan song for WITP and certain things are or will prove to be necessary. Allowing players to organize ships into more manageable sizes and adding a larger Task Group which acts like a mobile base for TFs placed within it to allow react and return to function is paramount.

Yes, that's a totally different approach. I can't resist pointing out that many of items that people call for in order to "streamline" the way player's can give orders ends up requiring an AI to interpret what exactly the player had in mind. This takes control out of the hands of the player and gives it to the untrustworthy AI, that many other players don't trust to do anything. Not all streamlining efforts require this, but many do.

As for future changes, who's to say that some individuals won't come along and continue improving WitP (either officially for Matrix, or unofficially), just as Mike Wood improved Pac War. My point was that short of additional revenue down the road, there's always going to be a finite amount of resources we're willind to devote to the project. By the way, where did everyone get this idea that 1.40 will be the last patch. I said "Mike will continue to spend some time patching WitP, but will transition over the next few months to work primarily on Eastern Front". I didn't say that no work would be done on WitP. It was always our intention along with Matrix Games's intention to have Mike move on to another project. I'm sure that Matrix would claim that the ongoing WitP support will be better than the support that most other wargames get (and they'd be right).

What I did say was that the WitP engine is now technologically out of date and that we are not planning on using it for other products down the road (as we have much better ways of making games now). This is a casualty of both improvements in hardware and operating system software, and improvements in the way we design and program our games. However, anyone that has followed Gary's work over the years realizes that much of what he creates in new games is grounded in the work he's done in the past.

An old addage in the software business.

No matter how intriguing a project is upon its inception, there comes a point in time that even the most fascinating endeavor becomes the "turd that won't flush" at some point in time.

[Oliver Heindorf]

It's sad the original X-com game is still the best squad level based game.

try jagged alliance 2 and the mods then, I think you will like them

[steveh11Matrix]

GGWAW looks like HOI lite to me...and with HOI2 coming out that makes it dead-in-the-water for me. Note that I say it looks like that: I've no idea if it plays like that, the first impression is more than enough to put me off.

Yet Another Civil War Game (YACWG): Let's hope this one's better. Still looks like it'll suffer from being drawn from the same engine as GGWAW. Overall yawn factor for me is very high, but I'll keep half an eye on it.

Yet Another WIE Clone (YAWIEC): Oh, dear. 10 mile hexes? Better hope it plays under co-operative multiplayer or that the UI is very slick and doesn't overload the player with detail. I have little hope for the latter, but more for one or both of the first two. It will be hard to beat TOAW and the Barbarossa scenario, and TOAW is so flexible, too, but I'll watch this one with interest![:)]

[Buck Beach]

Imperializm I and II were sort of fun. Europa Universalis I & II were sort of fun. Move an icon representing corp level armies, fleets, etc, spend development points on guns & butter, politcal points. GGWAW seems to be more of the same and sort of a copy cat concept. UV & WITP and PacWar are/were unique as many of the other GG games. There are many pure fun games to choose from. Let's see, Civilization III etc , Age of Empires, etc, Railroad Tycoon, etc, Tropico, etc, and SIMCity etc. To be sure the economic reality is that serious detailed stratgic games don't make money.