KB after PH strike

[mogami]

Hi. Japanese players who do anything other then retire to refuel after Dec 7 strike on PH

[rroberson]

<shrug> You give me the tools. Are you know going to dictate how I use them?

[Brady]

LOL[:)], I feal the love[:)]


...............

Seriously I do respect you Mogami[:)]

[tsimmonds]

This is one good reason why you and your opponent should correspond briefly before starting a new game.

[Drex]

Some of the Japanese officers wanted an additional strike so why not stick around and enjoy the show?

[denisonh]

To quote Sherman "War is Hell"

[Feinder]

I would say I'm ok with KB sticking around. That being said, I've never been subjected to 4 days worth of strikes by KB. I can say after just 2, my AFs were compeltely destroyed, had lost 4 BBs, and 2 major damage, and 2 more moderate damage (plust several cruisers damaged). Had my opponent stuck around, there was nothign I could do about it (AF damage 100%). I'm not sure THAT is realistic, in that, I don't think if historically KB had stuck around for another round of strikes, that PH would have had ZERO ability to respond, to say nothing of the limited amount of specialized ordiancne that was used in the PH strike.

Still, 2 days of strikes were fine (did a lot of damage, but I don't think gamey). I could maybe live with a 3rd day of strikes, but a 4th is pushing the evelope. But again, I've never been subjected to 3 or 4 days of strikes, so I can't really say how bad off things would be (it just -seems- that they would have more damage than was historically possible).

-F-

[rogueusmc]

How would I see the results without voting? (I have never played the IJN)

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

How would I see the results without voting? (I have never played the IJN)

Can't. But that's ok, he wants to know what YOU think, not what IJN guys think (even though I am one and I voted anyway[:'(])

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I would say I'm ok with KB sticking around. That being said, I've never been subjected to 4 days worth of strikes by KB. I can say after just 2, my AFs were compeltely destroyed, had lost 4 BBs, and 2 major damage, and 2 more moderate damage (plust several cruisers damaged). Had my opponent stuck around, there was nothign I could do about it (AF damage 100%). I'm not sure THAT is realistic, in that, I don't think if historically KB had stuck around for another round of strikes, that PH would have had ZERO ability to respond, to say nothing of the limited amount of specialized ordiancne that was used in the PH strike.

Still, 2 days of strikes were fine (did a lot of damage, but I don't think gamey). I could maybe live with a 3rd day of strikes, but a 4th is pushing the evelope. But again, I've never been subjected to 3 or 4 days of strikes, so I can't really say how bad off things would be (it just -seems- that they would have more damage than was historically possible).

-F-

I have been the victim of this. More then once. Again, we are getting into what is "realistic" or not. Is it realistic, to strike manilla with KB 1st turn? No...but its a game. You present me the units. How I employ them should be up to me.

If I wanted to replay how Nagumo did it exactly. Id read about it not play it. I think the point of wargames is to see how history would of been different...if/then.

[Nomad]

I have had one player stay around the HI for 8 days. He hit PH a lot but I did not create any TFs nor start any from the WC so he didn't get any shipping. He did kill most of the air force I started with and closed the airfields on PH itself. I do wish there was someway that large air bases like PH could not be closed for fighter flights. He lost over 100 aircraft and crew to AA fire, that had to hurt.

At least I knew where KB was and I vectored my two CV TFs that start at sea to the Marshalls and caught a bunch of APs with troops on board. It is a trade off, I think the real power of KB is to use it when necessary but at all other times do not let the Allies know where it is. Then the Allies have to figure it could be anywhere.

[tsimmonds]

I think the real power of KB is to use it when necessary but at all other times do not let the Allies know where it is. Then the Allies have to figure it could be anywhere.

That's why I prefer quietly to disappear after one strike.....

[Skyros]

It would be nice if the fuel endurance issue was settled. I believe that they were at their extrreme range in real life and could not hang around for 3 or four days. But if the game allows it PLAY ON! There are enough things that the allies should not be able to do that they can and after all its only a game.

[rogueusmc]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I have had one player stay around the HI for 8 days.

Same here...it was painful for me but I bet he will end up regretting it. I try to just roll with the hand I'm dealt.

[rroberson]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

At least I knew where KB was and I vectored my two CV TFs that start at sea to the Marshalls and caught a bunch of APs with troops on board. It is a trade off, I think the real power of KB is to use it when necessary but at all other times do not let the Allies know where it is. Then the Allies have to figure it could be anywhere.

Exactly. My opponent can stick around for days and pound PH into dust. It is costing him those high value pilots and if I know where KB is...guess what I'm doing.

[The Duke]

My very first PBEM my opponent stuck around for about 2 weeks.....I was 100% helpless after the 2nd or 3rd day.

Yep, it was pretty frustrating. [:@]

When we switched sides, I just hit the 1st day then moved out....partially b/c I wanted to protect my high experience pilots from AA, partially b/c I think that's extreme.

Now that we're in spring '43 and those old BBs are dragging around 1000+ AA values on invasion fleets, I wish I had stuck around a few more days [;)]

[JeffroK]

Just make sure the Jap players dont complain when my B-17/24 Battlestar starts taking out his bases in turn.

What goes around, comes around!

[Mike Scholl]

Reality..., KB could have launched a couple of "follow up strikes" on the afternoon of the 7th before retiring. But they didn't have the feul to hang around longer or actively "hunt" carriers. The game system gives them a "free ride" across the Pacific, so they have a LOT more fuel in the game than in reality.
If you and your opponant have AGREED to play a "fast and furious, wild and wooly, push it to the max" game, then I would have no problem with taking advantage of the game system's problems. But if you've agreed to play within the realm's of reality, then both sides should aim to try and stay within those realms.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: rroberson

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I would say I'm ok with KB sticking around. That being said, I've never been subjected to 4 days worth of strikes by KB. I can say after just 2, my AFs were compeltely destroyed, had lost 4 BBs, and 2 major damage, and 2 more moderate damage (plust several cruisers damaged). Had my opponent stuck around, there was nothign I could do about it (AF damage 100%). I'm not sure THAT is realistic, in that, I don't think if historically KB had stuck around for another round of strikes, that PH would have had ZERO ability to respond, to say nothing of the limited amount of specialized ordiancne that was used in the PH strike.

Still, 2 days of strikes were fine (did a lot of damage, but I don't think gamey). I could maybe live with a 3rd day of strikes, but a 4th is pushing the evelope. But again, I've never been subjected to 3 or 4 days of strikes, so I can't really say how bad off things would be (it just -seems- that they would have more damage than was historically possible).

-F-

I have been the victim of this. More then once. Again, we are getting into what is "realistic" or not. Is it realistic, to strike manilla with KB 1st turn? No...but its a game. You present me the units. How I employ them should be up to me.

Not completely, as the IJN had operated it's CV's off the China Coast many times in previous years. With that as "cover", and a "night speed run" to get into range, the Philippines IS a possible target for the 7th.
But some Allied reaction should be available because they WOULD know where KB was. It's the game's "suprise" movement bonus that is abuseable, as it allows "suprise" movement in areas where suprise was totally impossible, even absurd.

If I wanted to replay how Nagumo did it exactly. I'd read about it not play it. I think the point of wargames is to see how history would of been different...if/then.

The point would be to see if you could have done it better than Nagumo WITHIN the constraint's Nagumo actually faced. To take advantage of a "loophole" in the game's rules kind of spoils the satisfaction of thying to do it better. The real KB COULDN'T "fly" fuel free all over the Pacific Basin and just appear by suprise to attack. In the game, you can. But if you do, you are not re-creating Nagumo's choices---you are just playing a game against the designer's failures. Have fun..., but don't confuse your results with "history".

[bradfordkay]

There wasn't a "well, it's okay if they only stick around a day or two" choice... I really wish that the replenishment TF did not have a full load. This would make the question moot. Does anyone know if it is possible to have ships start with a partial load if at sea on turn 1?