Samarinda is next then Tarakan and then last but not least the base at the other end of the road.
3rd Corps has 4 Divisions and plenty of Armour so with airsupport it should be able to manage ok
Andy Mac v PZB ....The Allies Fight Back
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
7th US Division is in worst shape so it will remain to garrison Balikapan whoile the rest of 3rd Corps heads East
A convoy with additional baseforces, supply and fuel is enroute my carriers will hang around a few days to ensure it gets through ok.
My no 1 objective is now to get the bulk of my fleet back to a repair yard Saratoga, Yorktown and Intrepid as well as Belleau Wood are in refit as we speak and should be ready in two weeks.
Hangkok arrive in 7 days so they will start to move to Rabaul when they are all assembled.
All my other carriers and units >5 sys will move into refit mode.
Andy
A convoy with additional baseforces, supply and fuel is enroute my carriers will hang around a few days to ensure it gets through ok.
My no 1 objective is now to get the bulk of my fleet back to a repair yard Saratoga, Yorktown and Intrepid as well as Belleau Wood are in refit as we speak and should be ready in two weeks.
Hangkok arrive in 7 days so they will start to move to Rabaul when they are all assembled.
All my other carriers and units >5 sys will move into refit mode.
Andy
-
okonumiyaki
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:22 am
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
LOL - did they give Zeke kamikaze pilots high altitude suits and breathing systems...? Yes, hi-lo would have been an attack profile (to avoid the picket ships I suppose) but by high - 15-20k would be my guess.
Surprised Zekes could could that high - service ceiling is usually quoted as between 32-36k.
Surprised Zekes could could that high - service ceiling is usually quoted as between 32-36k.
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
How steep could a Zeke dive?
I think, that, even if they came in at 36000feet altitude, they would have had to go down to hit their target. Target is on sealevel, so the Zeke would have had to dive 36000 feet verticaly to avoid cap and AAA. Imho undoable. The Zekes and their pilots would desintegrate on the way down.
If they would dive in a 60degree dive, they would need about 12000feet to reach the target, thereby bringing them into AAA and cap range for about 8000 feet (estimated cap/AA altitude 25000feet). But even doing so would cause blackouts in the pilots (the resulting speed would be enormous).
I´d say Kami-Zekes should be difficult to intercept, but easily be hit by AAA. Additionally the hitting chance should be reduced with increased attack altitude.
I think, that, even if they came in at 36000feet altitude, they would have had to go down to hit their target. Target is on sealevel, so the Zeke would have had to dive 36000 feet verticaly to avoid cap and AAA. Imho undoable. The Zekes and their pilots would desintegrate on the way down.
If they would dive in a 60degree dive, they would need about 12000feet to reach the target, thereby bringing them into AAA and cap range for about 8000 feet (estimated cap/AA altitude 25000feet). But even doing so would cause blackouts in the pilots (the resulting speed would be enormous).
I´d say Kami-Zekes should be difficult to intercept, but easily be hit by AAA. Additionally the hitting chance should be reduced with increased attack altitude.
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
OK on review USS Ticonderoga is still in reasonable shape (4 sys) as it 2 of the CVL's (5 sys) they will remain at Rabaul and will be reinforced by Saratoga, Yorktown and Intrepid while the rest of the fleet refits.
PZB's little carrier raid of last month is paying dividends now as I rushed my semi refitted ships to sea at max speed and they shook themeselves apart requiring more yard time.
I am also considering (given the lower IJN Carrier threat) sending a small raiding TF into the Indian Ocean.
3 CVE's (1 with Hellcats), 2 AO's, 6 AK's plus 3 - 6 old DD's and a few of the old ABDA CL's with supplies and a Dutch BF plus an Australian Inf Bn. All told maybe 16 ships and 2,000 troops
Intention is to interfere with convoys and if they get half a chance sieze (but not hold) an island like the Andamans or one of the off Borneo bases.
Basically annoyance value only but a small mixed ops force could have an impact far beyond their actual strength
PZB's little carrier raid of last month is paying dividends now as I rushed my semi refitted ships to sea at max speed and they shook themeselves apart requiring more yard time.
I am also considering (given the lower IJN Carrier threat) sending a small raiding TF into the Indian Ocean.
3 CVE's (1 with Hellcats), 2 AO's, 6 AK's plus 3 - 6 old DD's and a few of the old ABDA CL's with supplies and a Dutch BF plus an Australian Inf Bn. All told maybe 16 ships and 2,000 troops
Intention is to interfere with convoys and if they get half a chance sieze (but not hold) an island like the Andamans or one of the off Borneo bases.
Basically annoyance value only but a small mixed ops force could have an impact far beyond their actual strength
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
What convoys do you think you would catch there?
I don´t think it is worth the risk, that is your plan to attack India (lateron) is much harder to do.
If you seize a base now, PzB will strengthen his reserves in India and it will be much harder to get after India.
If you start an Indic adventure, go for all. Else is only warning him.
So it would be better to r+r all your ships, build up your bases, build forward sub-replenishing ports, make the one or other longrange LBA-raid.
What about the northern route? Are there large bases in the Aleutians so you could do longrange attacks on northern Japan?
Is it possible to mine Shanghai port or the Yellow sea?
Your convoy routes are secure now? Are there functional Japanese carriers in the moment?
Do you think it is possible to make PzB use up his Kamis on some worthless, heavy armored ships? He surely has lots of planes, but those should be used up somewhen.
I don´t think it is worth the risk, that is your plan to attack India (lateron) is much harder to do.
If you seize a base now, PzB will strengthen his reserves in India and it will be much harder to get after India.
If you start an Indic adventure, go for all. Else is only warning him.
So it would be better to r+r all your ships, build up your bases, build forward sub-replenishing ports, make the one or other longrange LBA-raid.
What about the northern route? Are there large bases in the Aleutians so you could do longrange attacks on northern Japan?
Is it possible to mine Shanghai port or the Yellow sea?
Your convoy routes are secure now? Are there functional Japanese carriers in the moment?
Do you think it is possible to make PzB use up his Kamis on some worthless, heavy armored ships? He surely has lots of planes, but those should be used up somewhen.
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
Thats the whole point Frank I am not seriously considering re invading India 1 Corps may attack as a tertiary operation after I get malaya more as a VP grab and just to pin his forces there but the real battles are over Malaya and anything I can do to stop him pulling troops out of India/Burma towards Malaya/North Borneo is a good thing.
Once I take North Borneo or Malaya thats it no more supplies or resources to the HI.
I would hope to catch resource convoys from India or oil from Rangoon he must be scrabbling around to stockpile everything he can as he doesnt know that my Carriers need 2 months in dry dock.
I dont think any Jap carriers are operational and as for mining I could to be honest the Northern route is unappealing to me Cold Weather makes building bases difficult and I will only follow that route as a last resort after 10th Army becomes operational. With 4 full Corps 10th Army will be powerfull but I just don't know if it is worth it.
There is a real point in all of this that I had not considered following analysis of the last few turns I think PZB may have a reasonable beef on Kamikazes. (not the HL nonsense) I am using BB's to support my landing TF's inside the TF's now this is a result of my excruciating Cruiser losses I had no choice. Fine no issue except every kami thats gotten through my CAP to attack my fleet has bounced off of my BB's and ignored the transports good for me not so good for PZB I may in fairness need to stop putting BB's in assault TF's as it is a little unfair. Now I am going to think about this one a little.
Andy
Once I take North Borneo or Malaya thats it no more supplies or resources to the HI.
I would hope to catch resource convoys from India or oil from Rangoon he must be scrabbling around to stockpile everything he can as he doesnt know that my Carriers need 2 months in dry dock.
I dont think any Jap carriers are operational and as for mining I could to be honest the Northern route is unappealing to me Cold Weather makes building bases difficult and I will only follow that route as a last resort after 10th Army becomes operational. With 4 full Corps 10th Army will be powerfull but I just don't know if it is worth it.
There is a real point in all of this that I had not considered following analysis of the last few turns I think PZB may have a reasonable beef on Kamikazes. (not the HL nonsense) I am using BB's to support my landing TF's inside the TF's now this is a result of my excruciating Cruiser losses I had no choice. Fine no issue except every kami thats gotten through my CAP to attack my fleet has bounced off of my BB's and ignored the transports good for me not so good for PZB I may in fairness need to stop putting BB's in assault TF's as it is a little unfair. Now I am going to think about this one a little.
Andy
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
Screw fairness, you have a war to win![:)]
Ok, India is no option. Then it would really be good to make him move his forces there.
So, how would operation "blunt knife" look like:
You´d like him to move troops into India (Phillippines?)and Burma/Malasia.
He will have many troops in Soerbaja, Palembang, Brunei, Singapore and maybe Saigon (that´s at least my estimation).
What would make him move: attacks on his oil production. He will have enough resources in Japan mainland till the end of the war.
How to reduce oil supply:
a) destroy tankers
b) destroy oil production
c) occupy oil production
All those are imho doable.
advantages:
a) he has only limited number of tankers. Once sunk they have to be bulit fast which uses ship building points he could use for repairs. (oil and shipbuilding handicapped)
b) oil production is expensive to repair. Once destroyed the oilfields have to be rebuilt (if he cares); (oil and supplies handicapped)
c) occupying the bases is cutting off the oil supply and might sink the one or other docked tanker. Additionally you get bases so you could bring in your LBA.
disadvantages:
a) you have to find those tankers, what will take some timeand you only gnaw on his leg. I am afraid it won´t bring the necessary push.
b) you need a base in range and have to fight through the cap. On the other hand you have lots of LBA with the right range for those actions. I´d propose night city attacks from medium altitude if you only want to get after the oil/resource/manpower. One would have to look for the right target (I think attacking manpower causes fires which destroy industry and resources?)
c) occupying is the most costly but imho most promising action. But you´d need at least one Corps to get Soerbaja, which would be the base I´d take. It is in range of Palembang, Brunei and Singapore and far enough away from SIngapore to get attacked by all aircraft he has. But holding Soerbaja will make him move his forces there. He once proofed he isn´t willing to loose Java (was it Wobbly who lost royally there?), maybe he doesn´t want to loose it now?
So, if you want to make PzB move troops west the best method would be to threaten Soerbaja.
It would be best to start an aircampaign against all those bases like Bali. Just malm the airbases. Then recon there in the most extreme manner. Send small sub transported recon units, etc ...
If you really want to get after Soerbaja, do the same with the Andamanes. But you would need much more than 2000 men to get it done. I am afraid you´d have to have 2 divisions to assault it successfully. If you go, don´t forget to take fighters with you.
Your plan will only lead to the destruction of your force without reaching anything usefull.
And I am afraid he will not commit more forces to India, if you don´t do a real invasion in Sri Lanka. I think this is the only way to make PzB reinforce India.
Ok, India is no option. Then it would really be good to make him move his forces there.
So, how would operation "blunt knife" look like:
You´d like him to move troops into India (Phillippines?)and Burma/Malasia.
He will have many troops in Soerbaja, Palembang, Brunei, Singapore and maybe Saigon (that´s at least my estimation).
What would make him move: attacks on his oil production. He will have enough resources in Japan mainland till the end of the war.
How to reduce oil supply:
a) destroy tankers
b) destroy oil production
c) occupy oil production
All those are imho doable.
advantages:
a) he has only limited number of tankers. Once sunk they have to be bulit fast which uses ship building points he could use for repairs. (oil and shipbuilding handicapped)
b) oil production is expensive to repair. Once destroyed the oilfields have to be rebuilt (if he cares); (oil and supplies handicapped)
c) occupying the bases is cutting off the oil supply and might sink the one or other docked tanker. Additionally you get bases so you could bring in your LBA.
disadvantages:
a) you have to find those tankers, what will take some timeand you only gnaw on his leg. I am afraid it won´t bring the necessary push.
b) you need a base in range and have to fight through the cap. On the other hand you have lots of LBA with the right range for those actions. I´d propose night city attacks from medium altitude if you only want to get after the oil/resource/manpower. One would have to look for the right target (I think attacking manpower causes fires which destroy industry and resources?)
c) occupying is the most costly but imho most promising action. But you´d need at least one Corps to get Soerbaja, which would be the base I´d take. It is in range of Palembang, Brunei and Singapore and far enough away from SIngapore to get attacked by all aircraft he has. But holding Soerbaja will make him move his forces there. He once proofed he isn´t willing to loose Java (was it Wobbly who lost royally there?), maybe he doesn´t want to loose it now?
So, if you want to make PzB move troops west the best method would be to threaten Soerbaja.
It would be best to start an aircampaign against all those bases like Bali. Just malm the airbases. Then recon there in the most extreme manner. Send small sub transported recon units, etc ...
If you really want to get after Soerbaja, do the same with the Andamanes. But you would need much more than 2000 men to get it done. I am afraid you´d have to have 2 divisions to assault it successfully. If you go, don´t forget to take fighters with you.
Your plan will only lead to the destruction of your force without reaching anything usefull.
And I am afraid he will not commit more forces to India, if you don´t do a real invasion in Sri Lanka. I think this is the only way to make PzB reinforce India.
If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
Nothing I do at this stage will result in a Japanese reinforcement of India he cannot have the troops..
A really evil thought has occured to me it nasty really really nasty......
My Carriers need to go for refit on the West Coast........
OK fair enough says I well why not take the loooong route home you know via TOKYO HARBOUR
His LBA is shredded and my sqns are in reasonable shape top up the bunkers fuel up from some AO's and head East to San Francisco the long way round so head up through the passage between Borneo and PI and then head East I may grab a few tankers or troopships it would be worth swinging by Marianas again as well.....
May as well dislocate his commerce while my Carriers move out to refit
A really evil thought has occured to me it nasty really really nasty......
My Carriers need to go for refit on the West Coast........
OK fair enough says I well why not take the loooong route home you know via TOKYO HARBOUR
His LBA is shredded and my sqns are in reasonable shape top up the bunkers fuel up from some AO's and head East to San Francisco the long way round so head up through the passage between Borneo and PI and then head East I may grab a few tankers or troopships it would be worth swinging by Marianas again as well.....
May as well dislocate his commerce while my Carriers move out to refit
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
Ohhh, sounds like a cunning plan!! As cunning as a cunning fox who is professor of cunning at Oxford university, to be precise.
[;)]
I'd stay clear of the Philippines, though: don't give him too much lead time to prepare his defenses at Tokyo. More "hit and run" instead of "blaze of glory"...
[size="-1"][/size]
[;)]
I'd stay clear of the Philippines, though: don't give him too much lead time to prepare his defenses at Tokyo. More "hit and run" instead of "blaze of glory"...
[size="-1"][/size]
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
Oh its definitley a hit then fade away more of a progression of destruction than anything else and because I wont have transports I can move 7 hexes a day so it will be hard to stop....
Andy
Andy
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
Guys there is one other alternative I could consider......
Now this would be seriously risky and would push the boundaries a little so honestly tell me what you think.
I have c 10 Divisons of 1st Australian Army prepping for Malaya at Darwin with its nice shipyard all c 50% prep at mo for Singers or Johore.......
Now if I only sent units > 10 sys to the West Coast and held the others at Rabaul and held back my other units and brought Hangkok plus Bellau Wood/Saratoga, Intrepid and Yorktown to rendevous with the others I could probably just about launch the Malaya op in 30 - 40 days.
It would mean I would need to send forces West from Balikapan to capture Bajam wassisname now but it could be done.....
Now I would be taking an operational risk because a lot of units would be 9 or 10 sys at start but I could do it it is very possible......
The upside is it would put me astride his LOC AND that advanced Shipyard would speed up my downtime put 10 AR's a fleet HQ in there and we coulde be onto a winner.
Any thoughts ?
Andy
Now this would be seriously risky and would push the boundaries a little so honestly tell me what you think.
I have c 10 Divisons of 1st Australian Army prepping for Malaya at Darwin with its nice shipyard all c 50% prep at mo for Singers or Johore.......
Now if I only sent units > 10 sys to the West Coast and held the others at Rabaul and held back my other units and brought Hangkok plus Bellau Wood/Saratoga, Intrepid and Yorktown to rendevous with the others I could probably just about launch the Malaya op in 30 - 40 days.
It would mean I would need to send forces West from Balikapan to capture Bajam wassisname now but it could be done.....
Now I would be taking an operational risk because a lot of units would be 9 or 10 sys at start but I could do it it is very possible......
The upside is it would put me astride his LOC AND that advanced Shipyard would speed up my downtime put 10 AR's a fleet HQ in there and we coulde be onto a winner.
Any thoughts ?
Andy
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
I will post a map tonight but it is definitly worth considering....
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
I see no reason to outrule that operation. So long as you reconned things enough and brought enough supplies to expand the repair yards it would make a good operation...
I think though that you may find it better to exploit without risking major ground fighting ( which would be risked in Malaysia where PzB can bring lots of his divisions from China, Burma etc into play) and hop to northern borneo, taan etc, Formosa and then Japan. Since each of these areas is geographically isolated you wouldn't be risking the sort of major ground war you'd be risking in the Phillipines and Malaysia and all the airbases would allow you to operate a lot of your army air force ( thus sparing your naval air force which you've run into the ground recently).
This would allow you to neutralise Java and Sumatra and render all his holdings in mainland Asia almost irrelevant ( so long as you have sufficient CAP over your bases) whilst cutting him off from his supplies and making it more difficult for him to shift troops from Phillipines and China back to bolster the Home Islands.
If I were PzB and you invaded Malaysia I'd welcome it as an opportunity to tie down a dozen of your divisions on the Malaysian mainland and thus reduce the strength of all further amphibious operations significantly.
I think though that you may find it better to exploit without risking major ground fighting ( which would be risked in Malaysia where PzB can bring lots of his divisions from China, Burma etc into play) and hop to northern borneo, taan etc, Formosa and then Japan. Since each of these areas is geographically isolated you wouldn't be risking the sort of major ground war you'd be risking in the Phillipines and Malaysia and all the airbases would allow you to operate a lot of your army air force ( thus sparing your naval air force which you've run into the ground recently).
This would allow you to neutralise Java and Sumatra and render all his holdings in mainland Asia almost irrelevant ( so long as you have sufficient CAP over your bases) whilst cutting him off from his supplies and making it more difficult for him to shift troops from Phillipines and China back to bolster the Home Islands.
If I were PzB and you invaded Malaysia I'd welcome it as an opportunity to tie down a dozen of your divisions on the Malaysian mainland and thus reduce the strength of all further amphibious operations significantly.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
-
Jim D Burns
- Posts: 3989
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
- Location: Salida, CA.
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Now if I only sent units > 10 sys to the West Coast and held the others at Rabaul
Dividing your forces (especially in WitP) is never a good idea in warfare. Assume the very worst (he knows you're coming and is fully prepared for it) and then ask yourself if you can still carry it off with acceptable losses.
If so then go for it, if not better to take a month long hiccup in operations while your ships refit then to be forced into a six month game breaking delay.
Besides if you take a month or so off, it'll give you some time to train up a new crop of 30 exp naval aviators.
Jim
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
Sorry to be clear no matter what I will be standing down my fleet for 30 days to rest absorb new pilots and do some training I need to reorganise my sqns if nothing else as they are all mixed up now.
The Singapore option only means I am standing them down for ONLY 30 Days instead of my planned 60 - 90 day refit enforced stand down if I send them all to the West Coast.
My forces have always been split during Hydra 70% of my BB's were in refit, after the abortive attack on Marianas I sent 3 Fleet and one Light CV for refit so I am never operating at full strength, the distance from my main shipyards dictate that logistically it is never possible for the allies to operate 100% strength and keep sys to acceptable levels.
I have ran my carriers hard in the last few weeks/months so a refit is called for the only question is whether it is a quick and dirty or a full west coast job.
Andy
The Singapore option only means I am standing them down for ONLY 30 Days instead of my planned 60 - 90 day refit enforced stand down if I send them all to the West Coast.
My forces have always been split during Hydra 70% of my BB's were in refit, after the abortive attack on Marianas I sent 3 Fleet and one Light CV for refit so I am never operating at full strength, the distance from my main shipyards dictate that logistically it is never possible for the allies to operate 100% strength and keep sys to acceptable levels.
I have ran my carriers hard in the last few weeks/months so a refit is called for the only question is whether it is a quick and dirty or a full west coast job.
Andy
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
I could recon Banja whatever its called and Para Drop the whole of 11th Airborne into it now that would be an interesting attack I would need to recoin it first but thats an SPS 3 AF !!!!
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
p.s. allies cannot upgrade shipyards only the Japanese can do it but my assumption is that Singapore is c 250 now and that it would halve to about 125 on capture so an advanced shipyard bigger than any allied one other than San Fran right at the fornt
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
Also to be clear I am talking about 1 Division at Johore and 9 into Singapore...........this should not be a long siege if I go for it
-
castor troy
- Posts: 14331
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:17 am
- Location: Austria
RE: ITS BALIKAPAN
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Also to be clear I am talking about 1 Division at Johore and 9 into Singapore...........this should not be a long siege if I go for it
9 divisions for Singapore? Is it an urban hex? If so, what if he has 2 divisions there and level 9 forts and prepped 100%? Not sure 9 divisions would be enough then...