Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:48 pm

Harlock,
 
Not to an Irishman [:D]. BBs were outmoded by this stage. I honestly believe any country in the world would have been better off building a couple of CAAA ( Heavy Anti-aircraft cruisers ) or a gaggle of CLAAs for each BB built.
 
 
As to Ye... What I've said to Damian was that he needed to combine his operations better and use moderately successful single axis operations to synergistically interact and create a greatly successful mix of operations combining all three arms of service.
 
1. BB and CA-heavy surface combat TFs to move to and stand off Ye and Moulmein ASAP with a view to driving my landing forces out to sea. These 2 x SC TFs would NOT leave Ye or Moulmein but would, instead, just sit offshore absorbing the necessary damage from US B-17s and Soviet Pe-2s and Il-4s on the basis that any damage suffered was less lethal to his navy than preventing the landing of men and supplies was lethal to my invasion.
 
2. His fighters should have been massed on Day 1 and used to SWEEP the skies over Moulmein and Ye. Only a couple of spare Sentai should have been given bomber escort missions in order to prevent LRCAP massacring his bombers when they hit my shipping out at sea ( there wouldn't have been LRCAP but better safe than sorry ). Sweep would mean that his fighters would operate on full potential and be a LOT more effective than when escorting bombers. In the meantime his bombers would be hitting my shipping.
 
3. On day 2 Allied ships could try to fight through Japanese ships to retake the sea off the landing beaches ( highly unlikely ) or retreat ( much more likely ). At that point in time another sweep could have been organised along with a small bomber strike by IJA bombers escorted by 60 fighters - all of the hundreds of others could have been set to SWEEP. The rationale here would have been to "test" the CAP and see how much the previous day had weakened it. If it was very weak then the airfield bombing campaign could have been titrated to the right level to allow maximal attrition of escaping ships.
 
4. No matter what else happened Mikes should have been deployed to Rangoon and Tavoy to continually SWEEP Ye. This would have put his best fighter into its most effective anti-fighter role and would have maximised both efficiency and effectiveness ( not at all the same thing )... a thing which is key to Japanese success.
 
5. Port Blair should have been abandoned and every effort made to rush reinforcements into Ye to retake that before I could air transport in enough troops to hold it. With the Mikes SWEEPING from 2 hexes the Zeroes should have LRCAPPED Ye in order to shoot down transports and make the airbridge prohibitively expensive. By shipping these forces in he could have maintained his strength south of Mandalay and prevented the breakthrough into Burma proper which is now 180 miles from Rangoon and has cut off what looks like 5 Japanese divisions, including the Imperial Guard Division.
 
He tried to hold everything and do everything at once instead of focussing on the 1 or 2 essential points and by trying to do everything he actually failed at the most essential thing ( preventing the breakthrough at Mandalay ). Interestingly enough he seems not to have realised that he DID actually break the Soviet and British air forces. I've had to downgrade several squadrons to Kittyhawks, LaGGs and Buffalos after running out of Spits, Mig-3s and Hurricanes. I' rebuilding and I have enough to make a strong fight for Haiphong ( a nice airfield with good long lanes of flight into his SLOCs. A few Wellingtons, Il-4s, B-25s and A-20s could do a LOT of damage if based at Haiphong.
 
I think his morale is suffering even though he actually achieved his goal - breaking the British and Soviet air forces. His problem is that he broke them too late and at a time when I no longer needed them to hold ( since I'd just achieved the breakthrough at Mandalay). But, when he got serious about breaking them and massed his fighters etc he broke them in 2 days. He could, and should, have done this earlier.
 
 
 
On another note: So far no-one has correctly guessed the base I will invade next. I think this is partly because I have been conducting my own Maskirovka with forumites as I do think that once a target is mentioned it is natural for curiosity to win out and have people ask the opponent how well that target is defended ( even in a roundabout way such a question gives hints ). So, in about a week's time my actual true plan for the "Big Ball of Ships and Stuff" - BigBOSS - will be revealed.
 
My own strikes ( which have cost me 4 CAs heavily damaged ) and my maskirovka by my entire submarine fleet have drawn him to one place, the British fleet ( which will join with Wasp, when it arrives and comprise my fleet train escort ) has threatened another but the blow will fall elsewhere entirely. Even if there have been no leading questions in his thread I think I've sold him on Marcus sufficiently by feinting towards Wake but having my subs hang around Marcus. He'll see the obvious thrust, then see the "hidden thrust" ( the subs ) and deduce that I'm trying a dummy on Wake and trying to decoy his CVs to the south pacific ( with my RN raid on Papaete ) whilst actually aiming for Marcus ( potentially this will be aided by people in his thread urging him to look for hidden threats or other bases in the Central Pacific I might be going for ). It is my experience that once people see through a feint and find a more cunning plan underneath it with a target which is being approached by stealth they pat themselves on the back and go "Aha, I saw through this guy's plan. I'm a great general." and throw their energies into defeating said plan. They rarely look for the third layer of deception ( which this plan has but which I obviously won't go into now but which will reveal itself before the final, fourth, layer of the plan goes into action) at all, nevermind the fourth layer which is the actual target.
 
Sorry for "using" the innate tendencies of people to ask about upcoming targets in AARs but it would have been remiss of me not to use all the aspects of human psychology ( including those which aren't in either Damian or myself ) in order to achieve success for the plan I developed on Day 1. And jsut to be clear... I amn't accusing anyone of leaking info on purpose or anything. There is just an innate tendency to ask Player A how well defended the target Player B has indicated he is going to invade is or to suggest that Player A look at his plan again to see if he's overlooked something if you can see a huge hole in it right where Player B is aiming. I'm totally comfortable with such questions being asked but I also recognise that a player who looks at a plan again will see that hole and then plug it. So, let him see imaginary holes and plug them by drawing forces away from regions I am actually planning to invade.
 
 
Oh, in other news: I've identified 1 reserve division at Hue and the 53rd Garrison Division on board ships and on its way to Camranh Bay. Excellent, two more divisions from his reserve committed to regions of my choosing and no longer available for the invasion of Nz and Oz.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:20 am

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

Skipped the 1st as nothing much happened. If anyone wants to examine the state of play for themselves drop me a PM with your email and I'll send you the turn file along with the passwords and you can have a look at things yourself.

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Sub attack at 78,60

Japanese Ships
DD Oboro
DD Kisaragi
DD Sazanami
DD Sagiri

Allied Ships
SS SHCH105

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Day Air attack on Hanoi [Tonkin] , at 36,37

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 3

No Japanese losses

Runway hits 1

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Day Air attack on Hanoi [Tonkin] , at 36,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 9
G4M1 Betty x 78
Ki-21-II Sally x 26
Ki-264 Angel x 3

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 30

Very few fighters. I sense another ambush coming up here. The RAF and Red Air Force have both almost completed rebuilding.

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Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 27
D3A2 Val x 8
B5N2 Kate x 33
Ki-43-I Oscar x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 1 damaged

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 26

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Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 1 damaged

Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 20

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Day Air attack on Pucheng [Cent China] , at 49,40

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 11
Ki-32 Mary x 3

No Japanese losses

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Day Air attack on Haiphong [Tonkin] , at 37,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 92
G4M1 Betty x 80
Ki-109E Mike x 33
Ki-32 Mary x 9
Ki-48-II Lily x 12
Ki-21-II Sally x 41
Ki-15II Babs x 3

Allied aircraft
no flights

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
TBM-1 Avenger: 1 destroyed
IL-2 Shturmovik: 3 destroyed
IL-2M Shturmovik: 2 destroyed

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 12
Runway hits 45

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Day Air attack on Tavoy [Burma] , at 28,37

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
B-19A x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
G5N2-L Liz: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 1

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Day Air attack on Rangoon [Burma] , at 29,33

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-I Oscar x 4

Allied aircraft
Pe-2 x 48

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-57 Topsy: 10 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Pe-2: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
58 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 34

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Day Air attack on Bangkok [Thailand] , at 29,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 66
Ki-109E Mike x 5

Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 70
B-17E Fortress x 91

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 2 destroyed
L3Y1 Tina: 3 destroyed
H6K2-L Mavis: 3 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
82 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 45

Another nice strike. One thing I will point out though is that I'm only getting 1 hit from every 3 bombers so that's something like a 2% hit rate. That's atrocious. On the other hand sheer numbers achieves success even with such low hit rates.

One other major mistake Damian has made is in seeming to "accept" that the B-17s are untouchable and thus resigning himself to their predations. In his situation ( and I've played the Japs in this mod a few times ) I never had any problems defeating B-17s by aggressively targetting their airbases. You might only kill 5 or 6 a day that way BUT given that the Allies only get 12 B-17s per month as replacements killing 5 or 6 a day for a week or two very quickly runs the number of B-17s down to such a low level that their impact becomes negligible.

Damian seems to very much meet threats on their own terms instead of looking for indirect counters. E.g. If bombers fly then I'll hit them with fighters. If my fighters can't hit them then I'm helpless. This is a major error.

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Day Air attack on Soerabaja [Java] , at 23,66

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 21
Ki-32 Mary x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 3 destroyed, 4 damaged
Ki-32 Mary: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
14 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 15

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Day Air attack on Soerabaja [Java] , at 23,66

Japanese aircraft
Ki-32 Mary x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-32 Mary: 1 destroyed

Runway hits 11

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Day Air attack on Manila/Cavite [PH] , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 16
Ki-109E Mike x 15
Ki-32 Mary x 26
Ki-48-I Lily x 54
Ki-21-II Sally x 36
Ki-15II Babs x 5
Ki-46-II Dinah x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 1 damaged
Ki-109E Mike: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-32 Mary: 1 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
28 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 105

I'm low on supplies here. I started with about 25,000 tons in Manilla and now I'm down to about 17,000 tons. However once I retake Rangoon I will be close enough to fly supplies in via Catalina and even strategic bomber ( Wellington, B-19, B-24 etc ). Currently all of those planes are tasked with flying supplies into Ye and Port Blair but once Rangoon is taken those two bases will be relatively secure.

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Day Air attack on RTA 4th Division, at 35,30

Allied aircraft
IL-2 Shturmovik x 135
IL-2M Shturmovik x 16

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

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Day Air attack on RTA 4th Division, at 35,30

Allied aircraft
SB-2M x 83

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
62 casualties reported

This Division is holding out at Lashio. A few Chinese divisions are on the way but I want to knock the Japanese around a bit first so that those divisions will be succesful when they Shock Attack.

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Day Air attack on ROC 62nd Field Army , at 43,41

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
31 casualties reported

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Day Air attack on Pp Army 91st Division, at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-II Lily x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-II Lily: 2 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
31 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 28,34

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-II Lily x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Empire Cormorant, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage

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Day Air attack on TF, near Ye [Burma] at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-II Lily x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-II Lily: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
AK Empire Gilbert, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Neptuna, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Palau [Nanyo] at 51,68

Japanese Ships
DD Yukaze
DD Numakaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVI, hits 3

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Ground combat at Skovorodino [SIB]

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 218339 troops, 2856 guns, 1316 vehicles, Assault Value = 5255

Defending force 100621 troops, 1720 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 3098

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 6

Japanese max assault: 5221 - adjusted assault: 4047

Allied max defense: 3304 - adjusted defense: 24771

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)

Japanese ground losses:
20822 casualties reported
Guns lost 366
Vehicles lost 23

Allied ground losses:
1756 casualties reported
Guns lost 74

I have several hundred engineers on the way here to help rebuild the fort levels but this is all just diversion. In a short while I'm going to attack him from Borzya and with just a little luck pull a fairly major surprise. Initially I was going to go cross-country to Arshaan but attacking out of Borzya offers the possibility of routing a dozen IJA divisions and completely unhinging his entire line in Manchuria and northern China. If I can get bases in Manchuria ( which he can attack ) then I'll feel justified in basing strategic bombers there and bombing the Japanese industry in Korea, China and the Home Islands.... inviting more bomber attacks on these captured airbases, attacks my fighters can meet on favourable terms and use to attrit the enemy aerial forces.

I've got to say that the more I read about Monty the more I think that:
a) he was a despicable individual on a personal level
b) he had a LOT of psychological issues centring around his personal identity and self-loathing
c) he was a MUCH better strategist ( as opposed to general ) than most people give him credit for ---- although his ego and need for self-aggrandisement got in the way.

He more clearly enunciated the need to shape the battlefield, write down enemy forces and balance loss rates and operational cadence against replacement pool totals and rate than any other Allied general I know of. Really every Japanese player really would do well to read about Montgomery's strategic problems and solution from August 1944 to VE day. There are huge lessons there for the Japanese player.... And no, I'm not talking about any of the ego-tripping about Market Garden etc but the actual issues he faced and the solutions he and his staff came up with. Anyways, enough drum-banging for now.

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Ground combat at Manila/Cavite [PH]

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 99637 troops, 1172 guns, 854 vehicles, Assault Value = 2617

Defending force 57337 troops, 1231 guns, 384 vehicles, Assault Value = 2185

Japanese max assault: 2487 - adjusted assault: 2808

Allied max defense: 2139 - adjusted defense: 7849

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese ground losses:
6761 casualties reported
Guns lost 152
Vehicles lost 8

Allied ground losses:
661 casualties reported
Guns lost 30

If I can keep Manilla supplied I think they can hold out for a damned long time.

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Ground combat at Suva [FIJI]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 14821 troops, 208 guns, 128 vehicles, Assault Value = 429

Defending force 4783 troops, 49 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 174

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Soerabaja [Java]

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 40745 troops, 774 guns, 655 vehicles, Assault Value = 984

Defending force 26711 troops, 194 guns, 38 vehicles, Assault Value = 431

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Japanese max assault: 859 - adjusted assault: 387

Allied max defense: 378 - adjusted defense: 482

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese ground losses:
1774 casualties reported
Guns lost 40
Vehicles lost 4

Allied ground losses:
542 casualties reported
Guns lost 21

This will require careful timing as my rescue mission is too far away to intervene before Soerabaja falls. I'll have to withdraw southward into the wilds of Java and try to eke out an existence there while awaiting rescue.

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Ground combat at Ye [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9640 troops, 140 guns, 108 vehicles, Assault Value = 298

Defending force 19954 troops, 287 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 279

Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

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Ground combat at 47,38

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 40665 troops, 609 guns, 335 vehicles, Assault Value = 1084

Defending force 6041 troops, 71 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 318

Japanese max assault: 2300 - adjusted assault: 1531

Allied max defense: 312 - adjusted defense: 87

Japanese assault odds: 17 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
995 casualties reported
Guns lost 28

Allied ground losses:
400 casualties reported
Guns lost 28

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

A tripwire army gets pushed back. 1500 AV won't be enough to break my real defensive line so all's still well in Northern China.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Canton [S China]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 20068 troops, 230 guns, 69 vehicles, Assault Value = 749

Defending force 25435 troops, 245 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1297

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 29672 troops, 276 guns, 923 vehicles, Assault Value = 896

Defending force 16742 troops, 343 guns, 21 vehicles, Assault Value = 663

Allied ground losses:
20 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lashio [Burma]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 3990 troops, 39 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 213

Defending force 3459 troops, 43 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 116

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Taung Gyi [Burma]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 13080 troops, 182 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 741

Defending force 20125 troops, 328 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 546

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported

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Ground combat at 35,40

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 21930 troops, 320 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 1170

Defending force 6811 troops, 93 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 227

Allied max assault: 1098 - adjusted assault: 504

Japanese max defense: 229 - adjusted defense: 155

Allied assault odds: 3 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
410 casualties reported
Guns lost 17

Allied ground losses:
275 casualties reported
Guns lost 21
Vehicles lost 1

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Still pushing down toward Rangoon.

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Ground combat at Port Blair [Andaman]

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 3668 troops, 71 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 207

Defending force 3355 troops, 44 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 82

Allied max assault: 326 - adjusted assault: 150

Japanese max defense: 76 - adjusted defense: 83

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
34 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
523 casualties reported
Guns lost 10

Damn, I was hoping to write them down more than that. I have spotted several APs about 2 days sail south of Port Blair and I take this to mean a significant reinforcement operation is underway ( perhaps an evacuation but I think Damian wants to reinforce rather than retreat . In response I'm sending in my two remaining BBs, 3 CLs and a dozen DDs. By not showing these ships for the last while I think I've lulled Damian into thinking that I don't have them available. After all who would let 3 divisions dangle in the breeze under BB bombardment without ever trying to intervene with his own BBs if he had them? [:D]

Jaroen · Post by **Jaroen** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:46 pm

Thank you for putting down your ideas on your use of extreme altitude bombing. I hope you don't mind me asking/discussing anything on that part and other things.

Here's the first question/issue:
Concerning this high altitude bomber attack, see below.

***********************************************
Day Air attack on Bangkok [Thailand] , at 29,39
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 66
Ki-109E Mike x 5
Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 70
B-17E Fortress x 91
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 2 destroyed
L3Y1 Tina: 3 destroyed
H6K2-L Mavis: 3 destroyed
Japanese ground losses:
82 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 45

Another nice strike. One thing I will point out though is that I'm only getting 1 hit from every 3 bombers so that's something like a 2% hit rate. That's atrocious. On the other hand sheer numbers achieves success even with such low hit rates.
******************************************************

My question is what you compare that 2% hit rate with? Compared to historical results or WitP results?

It is my thought that historically such extreme altitude bombardments were not executed because of an even much lower hit rate. Figures of US daylight bombardments over Germany exist aplenty (but not at hand) and I believe it was calculated how much bombers and bombs it took to hit a target like a mile wide circle on what altitude. This showed, I think to remember, hundreds of bombers just to achieve a few bombs to strike as close as a few hundred yards. And that's from a medium to high altitude like 18.000 feet. Perhaps I'm not right on target [;)] with these figures but I think it's not far from reality. Thus a target like a large airfield would require thousands of bombers on extreme altitude to even come close to the number of hits you scored. According to my reasoning. Don't you agree that compared to real historical bombing results you are doing extremely well with getting a 2% hit rate per bomber?

And another question/discussion is about Japanese tactics to counter such attacks. Again I'm really happy with finding your own thoughts on that matter as I couldn't think of any counter measures myself. It's about this:

***************************************************
One other major mistake Damian has made is in seeming to "accept" that the B-17s are untouchable and thus resigning himself to their predations. In his situation ( and I've played the Japs in this mod a few times ) I never had any problems defeating B-17s by aggressively targetting their airbases. You might only kill 5 or 6 a day that way BUT given that the Allies only get 12 B-17s per month as replacements killing 5 or 6 a day for a week or two very quickly runs the number of B-17s down to such a low level that their impact becomes negligible.

Damian seems to very much meet threats on their own terms instead of looking for indirect counters. E.g. If bombers fly then I'll hit them with fighters. If my fighters can't hit them then I'm helpless. This is a major error.
***********************************************************

I've been following your AAR's for quite some time already since I find them very instructive. There you go, another compliment! [;)] But I don't recollect any specific tactic or strategy in which you resolve to use a large anti-4E-bomber campaign to stop those monsters. The alternative you mention above seems very hard to execute at minimum and likely impossible to maintain because of extreme losses by the Japanese themselves and counter-counter tactics by the allies. Perhaps I'm mistaken and would therefore highly appreciate any explanation on this tactic and would definately enjoy hearing about any other counter strategies. Would you mind explaining???

And hopefully you're still with me so far. I was hoping you would clearify your ideas on using the untouchable Pe-2's. Those are dive bombers right? If not the following doesn't apply. [>:]
So how come those dive bombers are doing terribly good in surviving AAA and most of all, enemy fighters? Historically they were more or less like sitting ducks after finishing a dive attack, flying rather slow and low with hardly any strong on board defenses. Dive bombers should not be unvulnarable to enemy fighter planes especially when those happen to fly low level CAP's. If you happen to agree on this how do you view using those Pe-2's the way you do???

Hmmmm, yes I am somewhat critical of WitP producing non-historical use of units. Though it doesn't stop me enjoying it immensely and it's very easy to restrict myself not doing things which are blatantly a-historical. I definately don't intend to criticize you en find your AAR's very instructive! [:)]

Good luck with fighting the evil empire but I don't think you need it. I'm almost sorry with Damian . . .

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:25 pm

Jaroen,
 
My understanding is that to make the game more "fun" the designer decided to allow more hits but to have each hit do less damage. E.g. it has been alluded to several times by various people who are supposedly "in the know" that the high rate of bomb and torpedo strikes we see when attacking ships is a result of this design decision. I am assuming that the same thing is happening with attacks against ground targets. E.g. 4 times as many bombs hit as would in real life but each bomb does 1/4 of the damage.
 
Overall though while I support every effort to make the game model more realistic I also believe in playing the game as given. So, if the game has the % hit from level bombing wrong then I just say "Well, it effects both sides so let's keep playing." I think this is, at least in part, due to the fact that I don't actually believe tactical combat effects much in-game. I believe very strongly that logistics determine the success or failure of operations long before that operation actually launches and that the tactical playing out of that operation is pretty much already determined by the logistical underpinnings of both sides. So, I tend not to sweat minor tactical things since I think that the war is won and lost on the greater logistical, grand strategic stage. Obviously though others disagree and that's fine. I offer only my opinion.
 
 
The main counter-strategy to B-17s raiding at high altitude can be divided into passive defensive, active defensive, operationally offensive and strategically offensive options.
 
1. Passive defence: Lure the Allies into bombing bases at which you have relatively small numbers of planes/outmoded planes. When 200 B-17s hit a base holding 3 x Ki-15 Babs and suffer 4 or 5 operational losses in so doing you, as Japan, have just won a victory because 1/3rd of the entire month's supply of B-17s has been lost in order to destory 3 obsolete airframes. So, passive defence doesn't mean minimising loss, it is actually, at its best, a way in which to actively attrit the enemy force at a very favourable rate.
 
2. Active Defence... Some of the Japanese guns can reach the B-17s at their highest altitude so I tend to bring those few high altitude AA guns with me to the bases I expect the Allies to be hitting with B-17s. Again, if a single raid costs the allies a dozen B-17s damaged with 4 to 6 succumbing then that's 2 weeks worth of B-17s lost to the Allies per attack. If I'm making 300 Zeroes a month then the Allies had better be destroying 150 planes per attack for that attack to be considered a success. given the presence of FlAK and plane dispersion among multiple airbases they just aren't going to destroy that many planes.
 
3. Operationally offensive...
There are a very limited number of bases from which B-17s can operate at full effectiveness. With a proper combination of fighter sweeps and long-range bomber attacks it should be possible to hit those B-17 bases fairly easily. I've often managed to destroy 40 or 50 B-17s in a single day's raid in this mod. I may only launch such a raid once a month since it takes a lot of preparation but with the Allies getting 12 B-17s per month if I can destroy 48 in that single day I've, essentially, wiped out 4 months of B-17 replacements. You only need to do that 2 or 3 times before the B-17 threat is negligible.
 
4. Strategic Offensive...
Again, capturing those airbases with ground troops really effectively pushes the Allied B-17s back out of range.
 
 
Overall I will say I've played the Japanese in this mod a few times and have never found the B-17 threat to be unmanageable.Is it difficult to defeat them? Yes but that's the fun. If it was easy to do then anyone could do it and there'd be no challenge involved and I wouldn't bother playing. As I've always said... I don't much care about winning but DO care about challenging myself to play as well as possible.
 
 
Pe-2... At present ALL dive-bombers are immune to interception after the pull-up from their dive-bombing attacks. I personally support making ALL dive-bombers vulnerable to interception post-attack but until ALL dive-bombers are changed to be vulnerable post-attack I don't support emplacing a single-plane solution. However IF they ever release a patch which makes them all vulnerable in the pull-up phase then I'd be more than happy to see it applied to the Pe-2.
 
At present all I'm doing with the Pe-2 is exploiting its technical-tactical characteristics to the fullest. I see this as no different to a Japanese player exloiting the technical-tactical characteristics of the A6M2. I always support fully modelling all flaws and vulnerabilities of all planes whether that be the Pe-2 or A6M2 but I'm not prepared to "hobble" a plane's real performance in order to give it a flaw it didn't have in order to "compensate" for the programme's failure to model a vulnerability it did have ( vulnerability in the pull-out ) when:
a) lowering the Pe-2s ceiling would result in further ahistoricity as it would result in Pe-2s being destroyed BEFORE they could drop their bombs and not afterwards, a crucial, crucial difference and
b) any solution to model vulnerability during the low-level pull-up for the Pe-2 wouldn't be extended to other planes.
 
Its a philosophical issue of course insofar as some people prefer to come up with multiple rules for individual airframes etc whereas I prefer to fix the problem with an entire TYPE of plane instead of making multiple individual rules for individual designs of that type.
 

As to combating the Pe-2s.... He should mass LOTS of IJA AAA Machinegun Bns. I did that in some of my games and butchered Pe-2s and Il-2s when they attacked. On one memorable occasion I shot down 64 Il-2s in a single afternoon with those AAA MG Bns ( which are particularly useful against dive-bombers at their pull-out altitude ). There is a counter. If there wasn't it'd be like plane minelaying which I ban ( because there isn't a counter ). The counter to the Pe-2s is pretty much the same as for the B-17s except that it is much, much easier as they have a maximum range of 6 and thus the number of airfields they can operate from near the front is limited and highly predictable.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 2:28 pm

Jaroen,
 
I'm more than happy to discuss this stuff. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me. After all intelligent, sane people CAN just have different views on things. That's fine and what makes life interesting. Without discussion we'd never be exposed to other viewpoints and our opinions would solidify and, eventually, ossify. That's a bad thing so I'm all for open discussion and debate and, even, outright disagreement. When that happens sometimes people see better ideas out there and change their opinions. I know that's happened to me in the past and I'm sure it'll happen again in the future.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:57 pm

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/03/42

Something very interesting happens in tomorrow's turn but for now we have to get through todays.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 77,60

Japanese Ships
DD Matsukaze
DD Harukaze
DD Mochizuki

Allied Ships
SS SHCH106, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 77,60

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsushimo
DD Nenohi
CL Katori
BB Mutsu
CV Akagi

Allied Ships
SS SHCH106, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Palau [Nanyo] at 51,68

Japanese Ships
DD Numakaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 77,60

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsushimo
DD Nenohi
CA Aoba
CA Tone
BB Mutsu

Allied Ships
SS SHCH106, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 77,60

Japanese Ships
DD Hatsushimo
DD Nenohi
CV Kaga

Allied Ships
SS SHCH106, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 77,61

Japanese Ships
AO Hayamoto, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Kisaragi
DD Oboro
DD Isonami
DD Kasumi

Allied Ships
SS S-34

Well, that confirms it, the enemy CVs are stationed north-east of Marcus Island just waiting for me to land there. I sank the Hayamoto but the CVs got away. No biggie, they are so far out of position that they might as well not be on the map right now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 27
D3A2 Val x 8
B5N2 Kate x 3
Ki-43-I Oscar x 24

No Japanese losses

Runway hits 16

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Changsha [S China] , at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pucheng [Cent China] , at 49,40

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 9
Ki-32 Mary x 3

No Japanese losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Haiphong [Tonkin] , at 37,38

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 88
G4M1 Betty x 71
Ki-32 Mary x 9
Ki-15II Babs x 4

Allied aircraft
no flights

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
IL-2 Shturmovik: 3 destroyed

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 52

This is useful to keep his bombers occupied. I get 5 Il2s and Il-2ms a day so losing a few a day to bombing raids like this in order to keep 100 fighters and 100 bombers occupied is a real bargain.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ye [Burma] , at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-109E Mike x 36

No Japanese losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Rangoon [Burma] , at 29,33

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-I Oscar x 3

Allied aircraft
Pe-2 x 87

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-57 Topsy: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Pe-2: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
85 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 49

Hmm, he has transports in Rangoon eh? I bet he is flying troops of the 4 trapped divisions out of the various pockets they occupy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Soerabaja [Java] , at 23,66

Japanese aircraft
Ki-32 Mary x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-32 Mary: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported

Runway hits 8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Koepang [Timor] , at 29,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 34
G3M2 Nell x 16
Ki-32 Mary x 23
Ki-48-I Lily x 44
Ki-48-II Lily x 14
Ki-21-II Sally x 28
Ki-46-II Dinah x 5

Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 38
Kittyhawk I x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 7 destroyed
Ki-32 Mary: 3 destroyed
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-48-II Lily: 2 destroyed
Ki-21-II Sally: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
Ki-46-II Dinah: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Tomahawk: 10 destroyed, 6 damaged
Kittyhawk I: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
Do 24K-2: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
11 casualties reported

Airbase hits 15
Airbase supply hits 9
Runway hits 63

Well, well, Koepang is the new hot zone in this war. I have lots of USAAF fighters there I need to send into combat to gain experience. Their pilots are currently 50 to 55 Exp and that's just not good enough. Committing them to combat will see a lot of losses but also a big increase in experience. So, for now these pilots fly in P-40Bs, get shot down easily but gain experience. Then I will rebuild them and send them back into combat in P-40Es.

In the meantime he is losing more pilots than I am and I'm continuing to write down his pilot pools.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila/Cavite [PH] , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B4Y1 Jean x 42
Ki-27 Nate x 17
Ki-32 Mary x 26
Ki-48-I Lily x 53
Ki-48-II Lily x 10
Ki-15II Babs x 4
Ki-46-II Dinah x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 3 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
97 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 4

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 51
Port hits 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on RTA 4th Division, at 35,30

Allied aircraft
IL-2 Shturmovik x 149
IL-2M Shturmovik x 19
LaGG-3 x 21

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
96 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on RTA 4th Division, at 35,30

Allied aircraft
SB-2M x 87

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
69 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Ye [Burma] at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-II Lily x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Empire Gilbert

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 77,61

Japanese Ships
DD Kisaragi
DD Oboro
AO Mamiya
DD Isonami
DD Kasumi

Allied Ships
SS S-34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 77,61

Japanese Ships
CL Katori
DD Hatsushimo
DD Nenohi
CL Yura
BB Mutsu

Allied Ships
SS S-34

The Mutsu and another AO are spotted. This is definitely a major concentration of enemy CVs. Weirdly enough his BB TF includes the Katori, an 18 knot training CL. Is he willingly slowing his CV and escort TFs to 3 hexes of movement per 12 hours? Weird. They have high AA values but is that really worth reducing his TF speed so much? If he were low on CLs etc I could understand this but prior to my taking over the game the Japanese had lost only 1 CL, 3 DDs and a DE so he isn't exactly short on escorts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 77,61

Japanese Ships
AO Hayamoto, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-34, hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 77,61

Japanese Ships
DD Kisaragi
DD Oboro
AO Naruto
DD Isonami

Allied Ships
SS S-34

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Skovorodino [SIB]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 193224 troops, 2369 guns, 1226 vehicles, Assault Value = 4258

Defending force 106907 troops, 1649 guns, 126 vehicles, Assault Value = 3079

Allied ground losses:
31 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Manila/Cavite [PH]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 76191 troops, 791 guns, 714 vehicles, Assault Value = 2009

Defending force 56686 troops, 1205 guns, 378 vehicles, Assault Value = 2161

Allied ground losses:
49 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Suva [FIJI]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 14899 troops, 211 guns, 128 vehicles, Assault Value = 429

Defending force 4771 troops, 48 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 175

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Ye [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9806 troops, 144 guns, 109 vehicles, Assault Value = 303

Defending force 20011 troops, 289 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 280

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Canton [S China]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 20305 troops, 237 guns, 77 vehicles, Assault Value = 757

Defending force 25475 troops, 249 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 1300

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Soerabaja [Java]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 35450 troops, 727 guns, 583 vehicles, Assault Value = 911

Defending force 26145 troops, 174 guns, 37 vehicles, Assault Value = 415

Allied ground losses:
104 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 15457 troops, 60 guns, 912 vehicles, Assault Value = 948

Defending force 16868 troops, 344 guns, 21 vehicles, Assault Value = 671

Allied ground losses:
2 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lashio [Burma]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 3996 troops, 40 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 213

Defending force 3269 troops, 37 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 110

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Taung Gyi [Burma]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9579 troops, 130 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 741

Defending force 19187 troops, 317 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 509

floydg · Post by **floydg** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:08 pm

Part AAR, part psychological thriller. This is addictive reading.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:14 pm

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/04/42

So, a day after making my point about how I would counter B-17s and Pe-2s by bombing their bases the base at which I had my Pe-2s until yesterday was bombed. So, if I were a betting man I'd say someone posted to Damian's thread and asked him why he wasn't/if it was possible to bomb my Pe-2 and B-17 bases.

Unfortunately for me I rushed the turn and while I had expected such a raid after mentioning the counters to Pe-2s and B-17s I had forgotten to set the fighters at Mandalay to CAP. OOPS [:D]. Well, if he follows the pattern he'll hit Calcutta tomorrow and he'll find my fighters there DEFINITELY have their CAP level set.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Kendari [Celebes] at 33,71

Japanese Ships
DD Wakaba, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD RTN Chandraburi
DD RTN Puket
DD Yayoi
DD Asagumo

Allied Ships
SS SHCH109, hits 2, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Palau [Nanyo] at 51,68

Japanese Ships
DD Numakaze
DD Yukaze
DD Okikaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 26
D3A2 Val x 8
B5N2 Kate x 33
Ki-43-I Oscar x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 damaged
Ki-43-I Oscar: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 31

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 30
D3A2 Val x 25
Ki-27 Nate x 24

No Japanese losses

Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Tavoy [Burma] , at 28,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-109E Mike x 8

Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 47
B-17E Fortress x 68

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-109E Mike: 1 destroyed
Ki-57 Topsy: 1 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
12 casualties reported

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 5

1,840 bombs dropped for 6 hits. That's a 0.3% hit rate. Hardly excessive or decisive. Personally I think too much is made of the B-17s and Pe-2s. Damian keeps referring to them but, in actuality, what has destroyed his air force is NOT the B-17s and Pe-2s but the fact that I destroyed over 900 Zeroes and 800 level bombers in Air to Air combat in the last 20 days of May. THAT is what has destroyed his air force, not any B-17 or Pe-2 raids.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Mandalay [Burma] , at 33,29

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 71

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 6 destroyed, 16 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
LaGG-3: 3 destroyed
IL-2 Shturmovik: 4 destroyed
Spitfire VB: 4 destroyed
I-16 Type 24: 3 destroyed
MiG-3: 4 destroyed
Hurricane I: 2 destroyed
F.K.51: 1 destroyed

Oops [:D]

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 13

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Mandalay [Burma] , at 33,29

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 71
Ki-264 Angel x 3

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
LaGG-3: 3 destroyed
IL-2 Shturmovik: 10 destroyed
Hurricane I: 5 destroyed
MiG-3: 4 destroyed
I-16 Type 24: 1 destroyed
IL-2M Shturmovik: 1 destroyed
Spitfire VB: 5 destroyed
Kittyhawk I: 2 destroyed

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Soerabaja [Java] , at 23,66

Japanese aircraft
Ki-32 Mary x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-32 Mary: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 12

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Koepang [Timor] , at 29,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 68
G3M2 Nell x 17
Ki-32 Mary x 26
Ki-48-I Lily x 51
Ki-48-II Lily x 18
Ki-21-II Sally x 48
Ki-46-II Dinah x 7

Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 26
P-40B Tomahawk x 65
Kittyhawk I x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 36 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 2 destroyed
Ki-32 Mary: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 2 destroyed
Ki-48-II Lily: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged

36 Zeroes and pilots killed. A total of 46 IJN and IJA planes and pilots killed overall over Koepang today.

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 23 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 45 destroyed
Kittyhawk I: 9 destroyed
T-IVa: 1 destroyed

9 first-line Allied fighters destroyed. In total 78 planes were destroyed but 69 were obsolescent. Overall I've cleared a lot of deadwood away and most of my squadron Experience levels have gone up by 5 to 10 points today, making them much more competitive in Round 2 ( which is a few days away ).

Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 18
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 135

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila/Cavite [PH] , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B4Y1 Jean x 42
Ki-27 Nate x 14
Ki-32 Mary x 26
Ki-48-I Lily x 52
Ki-48-II Lily x 10
Ki-15II Babs x 4
Ki-46-II Dinah x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
B4Y1 Jean: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-27 Nate: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
153 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 3

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 109
Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROC 84th Field Army , at 50,32

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
13 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ye [Burma] , at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-109E Mike x 30

No Japanese losses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Ye [Burma] at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 18

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Wosang, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Neptuna, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Empire Gilbert, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

A few cripples. Tomorrow my BB TF ( 2 BBs, 2 or 3 CLs and a gaggle of DDs ) will visit Port Blair. I can now see 2 enemy transport TFs at sea within 4 hexes of Port Blair. They are either making for:
1) Port Blair,
2) Ye or
3) Rangoon to reinforce it and keep me from taking it.

My response is to send the BBs into Port Blair but with orders to retire TOWARD Ye on the basis that they can attack the transports if they land at Ye or Port Blair. Either will cause the failure of the landing. I am also pushing onto Rangoon at full strength and should take it in 2 to 3 days so if he is landing there I only need to buy 2 to 3 days - with that in mind I've flown my best 150 fighters into Ye and have also flown in 100 Pe-2s. IF these transports make for Ye or Rangoon my Pe-2s should butcher them. All in all a nice mutually supporting plan.

The only thing which can stop its success now is if he has seen my BBs and retreats.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Palau [Nanyo] at 51,68

Japanese Ships
DD Numakaze
DD Yukaze
DD Okikaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Skovorodino [SIB]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 194875 troops, 2416 guns, 1233 vehicles, Assault Value = 4359

Defending force 107549 troops, 1670 guns, 126 vehicles, Assault Value = 3105

Allied ground losses:
32 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Manila/Cavite [PH]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 77187 troops, 811 guns, 717 vehicles, Assault Value = 2051

Defending force 56695 troops, 1208 guns, 375 vehicles, Assault Value = 2172

Allied ground losses:
92 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Suva [FIJI]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 14933 troops, 212 guns, 127 vehicles, Assault Value = 480

Defending force 4759 troops, 49 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 173

Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Ye [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9940 troops, 145 guns, 109 vehicles, Assault Value = 308

Defending force 20157 troops, 298 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 280

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 47,38

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 39724 troops, 589 guns, 333 vehicles, Assault Value = 1049

Defending force 5790 troops, 100 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 303

Japanese max assault: 2196 - adjusted assault: 3818

Allied max defense: 296 - adjusted defense: 12

Japanese assault odds: 318 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
791 casualties reported
Guns lost 13
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
522 casualties reported
Guns lost 37

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Canton [S China]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 20461 troops, 239 guns, 78 vehicles, Assault Value = 763

Defending force 25531 troops, 252 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 1302

Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Soerabaja [Java]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 35969 troops, 741 guns, 585 vehicles, Assault Value = 949

Defending force 26234 troops, 178 guns, 37 vehicles, Assault Value = 411

Allied ground losses:
131 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 15405 troops, 60 guns, 908 vehicles, Assault Value = 955

Defending force 17034 troops, 348 guns, 21 vehicles, Assault Value = 678

Allied ground losses:
9 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Lashio [Burma]

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 7245 troops, 91 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 389

Defending force 3269 troops, 37 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 110

Allied max assault: 166 - adjusted assault: 10

Japanese max defense: 75 - adjusted defense: 35

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese ground losses:
27 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
167 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

This is a Chinese Army pushing across the river to Lashio. It'll rest up for a few days and then join with the others to attack Lashio properly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Taung Gyi [Burma]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9599 troops, 132 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 743

Defending force 18378 troops, 309 guns, 28 vehicles, Assault Value = 479

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 31,32

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 11565 troops, 207 guns, 302 vehicles, Assault Value = 791

Defending force 753 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 10

Allied max assault: 1060 - adjusted assault: 1007

Japanese max defense: 8 - adjusted defense: 3

Allied assault odds: 335 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
180 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
27 casualties reported

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

This is the last obstacle on the way to Rangoon and now it has been overrun.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:04 pm

Note: I've received a PM from someone who says he may have pointed Damian's attention toward Pe-2 and B-17 bases recently. Basically there are two points to this:
 
1. He deserves a lot of kudos for owning up and
2. At no point do I think he tried to unbalance the game or that Damian thought he was benefitting from insider knowledge etc.
 
Hell, the day after I made that post about countering Pe-2s and B-17s I sent 150 fighters into Mandalay - my mistake was setting their CAP level to 0%

. So, again, I just took advantage of the innate human desire to ask Player B about the region Player A has just said he's going to invade etc etc.
 
If anything asking Damian about how he was countering Pe-2s or Mandalay etc etc ( I'm not sure exactly what was said ) merely fell in line with my expectations and thus led him into a trap ( which failed ).
 
So, not even a hint of anyone ( Damian or whoever may have asked about Mandalay or counters to Pe-2s/B-17s etc ) cheating or breaking confidence or anything like that. Hell, so long as people don't go "Nemo said he is going to invade Base X" I'm perfectly fine with someone cutting and pasting my counters to B-17s and Pe-2s posting above into Damian's thread. I don't care about winning and if it helps him examine his thinking a bit and improve then I'm happy for it. After all the aim of the game isn't to win at all costs but merely to play as well as you can play. The better Damian plays the better it forces me to play. Since my enjoyment comes not from winning etc but from playing well ( by my own standards and goals ) the better Damian plays the more I'm going to enjoy the game.

I hope that's clear and that in no way was I intending to impugne anyone. I think that, from what I know, people just behaved normally, in a manner I had predicted and in a manner which I had already planned to take advantage of when making my post. If anyone was beng ueber-sneaky it was me [8D]

Jaroen · Post by **Jaroen** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:26 am

Hey Nemo, thank you for your extensive answer to my questions about using the advantages the game offers. I think you're very right about some WitP-oddities (like bombing effectiveness) are shared by both parties and thus don't imbalance the game. Good to be reminded about that. I think you understood I don't like some tactics to be impossible to counter (when non-historical) and I am very pleased now knowing the possible counter tactics/strategies you offered. Such alternatives are hard to come up with when you don't have a very intimate knowledge of the game and knowing them gives a better sense of what to work with and how. To put it simply - the game's more fun that way!   [:)]

On the level of playing the game as it is given or trying to bend it to somewhat more historical rules/possibilities I'd say that's more a philosophical matter. To me it's actually more of an emotional thing. I just appreciate the historical accuracy and since this game offers such a thing on a grand scale (or pretends to) it feels like a bit of a bummer when sometimes it doesn't get it quite right. But I think you're right saying that same grand scale to be more about logistics and the importance of managing it to win the game. Nevertheless, part of the fun to me is playing with all the little pieces which simulate those war machines I've always been fascinated with.

Oh, by the way, I guess you do realize I didn't ask you about it all in order to help Damian. You say you're not bothered with Damian using (some) of those tactics suddenly or anybody having offered some help to Damian. Phew, that's great! I am reading his AAR but haven't posted in it nor contacted him in any other way. I won't tell you anything about what's going on inside his AAR but I just can't help myself mentioning that it's perhaps something like great minds thinking alike!?  [;)]

Of course the tactics you helped me with are now public knowledge and will hopefully help anyone in need!
Which you are aware of already and support.  [8D]

Good luck.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:54 am

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/05/42

Calcutta it was. In other news Damian has made a major mistake today... He tells me he has seen a "juicy target off Western Australia... 4 BBs and several AKs". Since I have just sailed many APs and AKs ( but nothing larger than a DD ) from Geraldton I am assuming he has actually spotted something --- I'm guessing I must have run over a submarine as I know he has no airframes within range. In any case why tell me this? Why not just ambush me?

I responded with the following:

As to those 4 BBs. Well, since you've seen the entire Royal Navy in the Pacific recently the ONLY way I could have 4 BBs off Western Australia is if I had used the last month to massively fake you out and with a couple of raids on Wake and Marcus draw your attention eastward into the Pacific ( where it is strange I haven't actually invaded, ANYWHERE, yet ), pin most of your CVs there and then run most of my BBs, CAs, CLs, DDs and CVs as well as a whole load of AKs and APs loaded with troops westward along the safe passage channels in order to land on your eastern perimeter in a co-ordinated action with the British army in Burma.

IF I were very sneaky I could have done something like that. Landing in Java right now would, I am certain, collapse your entire perimeter and I'll I'd need would be the three USN CVs you haven't actually seen yet. If I were sneaky that is. I suppose it all depends how sneaky you think I am.

I didn't actually SAY I had done that - I don't like telling outright lies in-game, it strikes me as a little dishonourable - but I certainly planted a possible interpretation which is not only false but invites him to draw his CVs farther westward and farther away from where I will actually strike.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Kendari [Celebes] at 33,71

Japanese Ships
DD Yayoi
DD RTN Chandraburi
DD RTN Puket
DD Asagumo

Allied Ships
SS SHCH109, hits 4, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Haiphong [Tonkin] at 37,38

Japanese Ships
AK Kano Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS KXVIII

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 38,58

Japanese Ships
TK Sacramento Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Allied Ships
SS KXIV

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 25
D3A2 Val x 8
B5N2 Kate x 32
Ki-43-I Oscar x 22

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 29

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 30
D3A2 Val x 23
Ki-27 Nate x 22

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 32

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pucheng [Cent China] , at 49,40

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 9
Ki-32 Mary x 6

No Japanese losses

Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ye [Burma] , at 29,35

Ah, he tried a sweep but it didn't work. He has asked me why and I've pointed him toward the Lanchester Laws ( I've mentioned this previously but I don't think he has looked them up yet ) and pointed out that even inferior planes can generate a high number of firing passes if they are present in sufficient number. I'm sure if he'd sent in 100 Mikes today he'd have wiped me out of the sky.

Japanese aircraft
Ki-109E Mike x 32

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 18
Spitfire VB x 4
I-16 Type 24 x 36
LaGG-3 x 9
MiG-3 x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-109E Mike: 27 destroyed

1/5th of his monthly supply of IJA pilots has been killed here today.... to no gain.

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk I: 1 destroyed
I-16 Type 24: 3 destroyed
LaGG-3: 5 destroyed
MiG-3: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Calcutta [India] , at 29,23

What's bad about this is that he DOES have airfields within range for Zeroes to fly sweeps into Calcutta yet he's lost so many Zeroes he probably doesn't feel like he can do those sweeps. Once you begin to lose things tend to accelerate. His loss of close to 900 Zeroes in the past 30 days means now he doesn't have enough left to expend on useful operations.

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 39

Allied aircraft
P-35A Hawk x 5
P-39D Airacobra x 14
P-40E Warhawk x 3
Buffalo/F2A x 12
Hurricane I x 19
Lancer x 9
Spitfire VB x 10
MiG-3 x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 10 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed
Buffalo/F2A: 1 damaged
Hurricane I: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Spitfire VB: 2 damaged
MiG-3: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Note the presence of P-35s, Buffalos and P-39s, evidence that a lot of my airgroups are being downgraded as losses reduce the number of front-line airframes. Damian's in a much worse state than me though but it does show that my losses have hurt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Calcutta [India] , at 29,23

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 62
Ki-264 Angel x 2

Allied aircraft
P-35A Hawk x 5
P-39D Airacobra x 13
P-40E Warhawk x 3
Buffalo/F2A x 12
Hurricane I x 18
Lancer x 9
Spitfire VB x 10
MiG-3 x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 19 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-264 Angel: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 1 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 1 damaged
Buffalo/F2A: 1 destroyed
Hurricane I: 2 damaged

So, 29 Bettys downed today. That's an entire Daitai which won't be able to strike my shipping when they approach their targets. Excellent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Koepang [Timor] , at 29,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 29
G3M2 Nell x 16
Ki-32 Mary x 25
Ki-48-I Lily x 56
Ki-48-II Lily x 17
Ki-21-II Sally x 44
Ki-46-II Dinah x 7

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-32 Mary: 1 damaged
Ki-48-II Lily: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 8 destroyed
Do 24K-2: 1 destroyed
Kittyhawk I: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 13
Runway hits 199

The base is closed so these are just damaged crates on the ground. AKs are nearby to pull these damaged planes out and ship them back to Darwin.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila/Cavite [PH] , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B4Y1 Jean x 40
Ki-27 Nate x 12
Ki-32 Mary x 25
Ki-48-I Lily x 49
Ki-48-II Lily x 10
Ki-15II Babs x 5
Ki-46-II Dinah x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27 Nate: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
46 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 37
Port hits 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROC 62nd Field Army , at 43,41

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ML/KNIL Pamekasan Base Force, at 23,66

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 8
Ki-21-II Sally x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 2 damaged

Allied ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Haiphong [Tonkin] at 37,38

Japanese Ships
AK Kano Maru, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS KXVIII

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Palau [Nanyo] at 51,68

Japanese Ships
DD Numakaze
DD Yukaze
DD Okikaze

Allied Ships
SS KXVI, hits 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Skovorodino [SIB]

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 197014 troops, 2463 guns, 1237 vehicles, Assault Value = 4447

Defending force 104815 troops, 1619 guns, 108 vehicles, Assault Value = 3093

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Japanese max assault: 3772 - adjusted assault: 1800

Allied max defense: 3261 - adjusted defense: 28907

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 5)

Japanese ground losses:
11131 casualties reported
Guns lost 142
Vehicles lost 40

Allied ground losses:
1965 casualties reported
Guns lost 53
Vehicles lost 4

Even with Level 0 forts he isn't going to take Skovorodino. This is just throwing away troops to little gain. Already he's lost almost as many troops in the past month as he lost in the first 5 months of the game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Manila/Cavite [PH]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 78333 troops, 829 guns, 719 vehicles, Assault Value = 2106

Defending force 56926 troops, 1213 guns, 381 vehicles, Assault Value = 2177

Allied ground losses:
67 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Suva [FIJI]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 15039 troops, 215 guns, 128 vehicles, Assault Value = 486

Defending force 4769 troops, 46 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 173

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Soerabaja [Java]

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 40778 troops, 779 guns, 655 vehicles, Assault Value = 983

Defending force 26193 troops, 176 guns, 36 vehicles, Assault Value = 412

Japanese max assault: 1548 - adjusted assault: 811

Allied max defense: 366 - adjusted defense: 1070

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)

Japanese ground losses:
1930 casualties reported
Guns lost 32
Vehicles lost 5

Allied ground losses:
616 casualties reported
Guns lost 15
Vehicles lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Ye [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 10011 troops, 149 guns, 110 vehicles, Assault Value = 310

Defending force 20178 troops, 302 guns, 28 vehicles, Assault Value = 283

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Canton [S China]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 20575 troops, 238 guns, 78 vehicles, Assault Value = 771

Defending force 25571 troops, 254 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 1306

Allied ground losses:
21 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9423 troops, 38 guns, 546 vehicles, Assault Value = 953

Defending force 17147 troops, 350 guns, 22 vehicles, Assault Value = 684

Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Ondorhaan [MON]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 6026 troops, 115 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 264

Defending force 4505 troops, 23 guns, 44 vehicles, Assault Value = 117

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Taung Gyi [Burma]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9656 troops, 133 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 747

Defending force 16552 troops, 286 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 405

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 30,33

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 3752 troops, 31 guns, 302 vehicles, Assault Value = 566

Defending force 304 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Allied max assault: 348 - adjusted assault: 350

Japanese max defense: 0 - adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 350 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
24 casualties reported

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Today my first Tank Brigade has reached Rangoon. Tomorrow it attacks and tries to take Rangoon on the march. If I do then it should let me begin bombing missions against Singapore the day after.

My BBs went into Port Blair but no enemy ships were there. I see enemy shipping in Ye so I'm allowing my BBs to continue to Ye. The idea will be to hit the enemy transports there and then pull back to Rangoon once I take that. Obviously though he could just pull out to sea and run away - which is fine as him running away will definitely save Ye from falling. In any case I hae a lot of torpedo bombers and Pe-2s at Ye so I'm hopefuly to get a few hits in even if he does try to run away.

The BBs will draw his Bettys like moths to a flame and I'm hopeful that by massing my CAP over Rangoon once I take it I can slaughter quite a few more Bettys and write down his naval torpedo bomber strength even more pror to the committment of my main force ( the USN fleet) in the Pacific. Could this cost me those 2 BBs and supporting ships? Yes, I expect it to but, as always, it is about the achieving something worth the cost and completing the breaking of his Betty force will definitely be worth this cost.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:06 pm

Jaroen,

Aye re: the playing historically vs playing as given. Everyone draws the line differently. I, personally, want the most realistic game possible and would support any changes to the game to make it more realistic no matter which side that benefits BUT once I have the game in my hands I'm not the sort of person who wants to have to follow 101 self-imposed rules to keep things "historical". Also don't forget that just because they didn't do something a certain way in the past doesn't mean they COULDN'T have done it that way if their doctrine etc was different.

So, just because 4-engined bombers weren't used to attack ships at 3,000 feet doesn't mean they couldn't have done so. After all prior to the beginning of the war I don't remember Douhet or Mitchell or anyone else talking about mounting machineguns and cannons in the noses of twin-engined bombers and sending them down to 100 feet to strafe enemy shipping. And if no-one had come up with that idea during the war and someone wanted to do that in-game I just imagine that person being shouted down for ahistorical play.

So, if it was technically possible then I think it is well within bounds for a player to order it... OTOH I do think that a plane diving on a target from 30,000 feet would probably be more likely to generate a clean miss than a plane diving on a target from 12,000 feet due to errors in initial aim point etc and would support accounting for that in the to hit %s.

As to helping Damian... Oh I cut and paste my answer to you in my latest email to Damian. I have no problem with him hearing a counter to a particular weapons system. In fact I suggested to him that if he wanted a joint thread to discuss strategy and tactics etc I'd be happy to agree to that. Like I said, its all about being pushed to your own limits so you play well.

ny59giants · Post by **ny59giants** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:29 pm

My comments to Damian have been to suggest he read your prior AARs, especially the one with this mod and you as the Allies. I'm trying to get him to understand the need to see how you view the battlefield. I've followed enough of your AARs to have a good idea on some things. It might help that I'm in mental health also. Got to get Damian to take more advanced classes of Psych Warfare. [:D]

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:50 pm

Mike,
 
I'm not surprised that you've pitched in with that sort of advice. I support it and think you are right. I'd be happy to discuss that with him in a joint thread ( with you and tohers piping in with your two cents also ).
 
As far as seeing the battlefield.... You're right. I believe ( and I'm sure you would agree ) that any situation ( be it battlefield, conversation, relationship or whatever ) is really the gestalt of the objective reality of that situation ( and we can leave aside the fact that there is no such thing as truly objective reality as all reality is filtered through our senses and medicine can prove that none of us actually sense things exactly the same... e.g. If you have more red-sensitive cones in your eyes than green-sensitive cones then you will actually SEE the world differently than someone with a more equitable balance of colour-sensors in the eyes. Hence even a fully-sighted, 20/20 vision group will have subtle difference in what they actually see, nevermind what they interpret... but i digress. )  and our perception of that reality.

Right now I'm quite willing to bet that Damian is feeling a bit hopeless. Every time he tries to defend something I end up attacking it anyway, anytime he tries to attack he ends up losing planes. He's lost more planes in the past month than he did in the past 5 months, he has utterly lost the initiative, has almost lost all of Burma, is being pushed back a little in Vietnam and is about to get a major surprise in Korea. His pilot and plane pools must be almost zero ( particularly as I'm seeing a lot more Ki-32s being used in training runs where previously he was equipping training groups with G4Ms and Ki-21s etc ), his fleet is at sea off Marcus Island but has not proven equal to the task of bringing my own fleet into action and destroying it and he knows that right now I have 2 or 3 significant offensives being set into action ( he knows this because I have, truthfully, told him this ). This mindset which has been engendered ( intentionally ) by me means that he is, I am certain, passing up good opportunities for counter-attacks etc as he is beginning to expect failure. And once one expects failure one tends to achieve it.  Obviously I've been stoking that along by:
a) actually grinding his air force to pieces on the battlefield and
b) regaining the strategic initiative entirely from Damian and
c) striking a tone in my emails to him which is largely unruffled by my own losses and failures ( I lost about a hundred planes on the ground in Mandalay 2 days ago but I just told him that it was an error on my part due to rushing the turn ( true ) and that it wasn't a big deal since I had major reserves of all the plane types lost ( not true, I had to downgrade two RAF squadrons from Spits because I'd lost so many of them ). So, even when he achieves something I downplay it. Right now I think he is so dispirited that he takes that downplaying at face value ( and it is 90% true... but the 10% which isn't is fairly crucial to the psych warfare game ) rather than critically and independently appraising it and, perhaps, coming to different conclusions.
 
P.s. You can feel free to post that to his thread if you want --- although if he agrees to a joint thread to discuss these sorts of issues then that would be a better place to post this sort of stuff.
 
P.p.s. Out of interest ---- because I'm always interested in what theories of the mind people ( particularly other professionals ) draw up about me --- how DO you think I view the battlefield? Soviet doctrine, OODA cycle, pragmatic optimism, ruthless etc?

Andy Mac · Post by **Andy Mac** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:28 pm

utterly ruthless as long as you are achieving your wider goal [:D][:D][:D]
 
more than most you identify exactly what you are willing to expend to achieve the goal unfortunatley for those of us playing you the goal is almost always correct if not always obvious.
 
 

Capt. Harlock · Post by **Capt. Harlock** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:23 pm

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 36 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 2 destroyed
Ki-32 Mary: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 2 destroyed
Ki-48-II Lily: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged

36 Zeroes and pilots killed. A total of 46 IJN and IJA planes and pilots killed overall over Koepang today.

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 23 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 45 destroyed
Kittyhawk I: 9 destroyed
T-IVa: 1 destroyed

9 first-line Allied fighters destroyed. In total 78 planes were destroyed but 69 were obsolescent.

Good analysis overall, but I wouldn't be quite so sanguine about the loss of the P-39's. The Angels have arrived, and that increases the value of the P-39 IMHO. Do you happen to remember about how many Allied pilots were rescued from the carnage?

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:57 pm

Harlock,
 
No, I didn't bother much counting pilot survivors as how many survived was less important than that they gain experience so that those squadrons would be combat effective once rebuilt. Usually though I find that about 3/4 of the pilots shot down over one of my own bases survive to return to action the next day. The key point is that pilot experience has gone up from the low 50s to the low 60s.
 
As to the Angels... If he bases them within 24 hexes of my bases my B-17s will attrit them. if he bases them more than 24 hexes from my bases then his own Ops Losses will wear the Ki-264s down unless he makes more than 45 or 50 per month. Since I don't think he is going to be able to make more than 50 per month once my HI denial missions really get going ( over the next month they'll start ) I amn't very concerned about the Ki-264s. They are awesome planes but not if you don't have very many of them. E.g. I have 50 B-19s available ( which are just like Ki-264s ) but they have hardly been decisive.

Definitely the P-39s are useful but I, personally, think the I-16s are better bomber-killers than the P-39s. I think that big cannon on the P-39s is just a little too inaccurate to be highly effective.

tocaff · Post by **tocaff** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:46 pm

Ruthless, yes.  You know what you want to do and how to do it.  You try to keep your opponent off balance and make him react to you.  Once the other guy blinks you've won that fight and in this war of attrition we all know that the Allies rarely have to blink first after the first phase of the war.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:13 pm

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/06/42

His shipping tried to stay out of range but was not entirely successful in doing so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 25
D3A2 Val x 7
B5N2 Kate x 32
Ki-43-I Oscar x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
A5M4 Claude: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 15

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Sovetskaya Gavan , at 73,30

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 30
Ki-27 Nate x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
A5M4 Claude: 1 damaged

Runway hits 9

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Changsha [S China] , at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Runway hits 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Pucheng [Cent China] , at 49,40

Japanese aircraft
Ki-32 Mary x 3

No Japanese losses

Runway hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ye [Burma] , at 29,35

And now he tries to take on Ye again. Over 200 of his finest fly --- I interpret the surfeit of Bettys to mean that he is running low on army bombers in this theatre --- and run into a very heavy CAP.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 111
G4M1 Betty x 72
Ki-21-II Sally x 26

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 32
Spitfire VB x 7
I-16 Type 24 x 55
LaGG-3 x 10
MiG-3 x 36

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 56 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 9 destroyed, 8 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged

Another 65 of his elite naval pilots go down in return for just 61 of my planes. Only 28 of mine can be considered front-line but as my reserves are getting low the loss of all those I-16s still hurts.

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk I: 8 destroyed
Spitfire VB: 3 destroyed
I-16 Type 24: 25 destroyed, 3 damaged
LaGG-3: 8 destroyed
MiG-3: 17 destroyed, 2 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Bangkok [Thailand] , at 29,39

The B-17 numbers are slowly increasing. In a short time I should be able to send more than 200 over per day as well as a full, balanced support group of B-25, A20s and B-26s.

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 6
Ki-44IIa Tojo x 1
Ki-109E Mike x 3

Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 72
B-17E Fortress x 112

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 4 destroyed
Ki-44IIa Tojo: 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 4 destroyed
L3Y1 Tina: 5 destroyed
Ki-57 Topsy: 6 destroyed
H6K2-L Mavis: 4 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
108 casualties reported
Guns lost 6
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 81

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Padang [Sumatra] , at 18,51

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 3
Ki-48-II Lily x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-II Lily: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Koepang [Timor] , at 29,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 41
G3M2 Nell x 19
Ki-32 Mary x 21
Ki-48-I Lily x 51
Ki-48-II Lily x 17
Ki-21-II Sally x 54
Ki-46-II Dinah x 5

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 1 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Sunderland III: 1 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 115

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on RTA 4th Division, at 35,30

Allied aircraft
SB-2M x 66

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
37 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on ROC 92nd Field Army , at 50,32

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27 Nate x 9

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Victoria Point [BMA] at 25,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 5

Allied aircraft
Pe-2 x 21

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Shirayuki, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Ouch!!! Bye bye Shirayuki.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 27,37

Some enemy ships didn't quite run far enough fast enough.

Allied aircraft
Swordfish I x 5
Vildebeest IV x 14
Pe-2 x 75
TBM-1 Avenger x 8

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AP Atuta Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AP Higashiyama Maru, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kirishima Maru, Bomb hits 9, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Enju Maru, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

3 definite gonners and, most importantly, a point made.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Ye [Burma] at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 20

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 24
Spitfire VB x 4
I-16 Type 24 x 30
LaGG-3 x 2
MiG-3 x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 9 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk I: 5 damaged
I-16 Type 24: 2 destroyed, 3 damaged
MiG-3: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
AK Empire Gilbert, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Ye [Burma] at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 16

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 24
Spitfire VB x 4
I-16 Type 24 x 28
LaGG-3 x 2
MiG-3 x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-16 Type 24: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

The Sallies turn back after only 2 firing passes. Their morale must be rock bottom.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Ye [Burma] at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 23
G4M1 Betty x 12
Ki-44IIa Tojo x 8

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 24
Spitfire VB x 4
I-16 Type 24 x 27
LaGG-3 x 2
MiG-3 x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 11 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed
Ki-44IIa Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk I: 9 destroyed
I-16 Type 24: 9 destroyed
LaGG-3: 1 destroyed
MiG-3: 8 destroyed

These Zeroes did very well. In total the 23 Zeroes and 8 Tojos downed 27 of my fighters.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Ye [Burma] at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9
Ki-21-II Sally x 8

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 16
Spitfire VB x 5
I-16 Type 24 x 23
LaGG-3 x 3
MiG-3 x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-21-II Sally: 1 damaged

Again, the bombers were stopped short of their target.

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VB: 1 damaged
I-16 Type 24: 1 damaged
MiG-3: 1 damaged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Ye [Burma] at 29,35

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zeke x 19
G4M1 Betty x 3
Ki-44IIa Tojo x 4

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk I x 16
Spitfire VB x 5
I-16 Type 24 x 23
LaGG-3 x 3
MiG-3 x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zeke: 10 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk I: 3 destroyed
Spitfire VB: 1 destroyed
I-16 Type 24: 3 destroyed
MiG-3: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB Royal Sovereign

2 Bettys survived to make torpedo runs but none hit. Today saw the destruction of over 90 Zeroes and 27 Bettys. OUCH!!! Those Zero and Betty losses are going to be crippling once the next phase of operations truly gets under way. Why he is allowing me to run his torpedo bomber numbers down so much when he could be using IJA bombers instead is beyond me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Skovorodino [SIB]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 180696 troops, 2104 guns, 1196 vehicles, Assault Value = 3747

Defending force 101514 troops, 1508 guns, 103 vehicles, Assault Value = 3003

Allied ground losses:
68 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Manila/Cavite [PH]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 79354 troops, 846 guns, 719 vehicles, Assault Value = 2164

Defending force 57164 troops, 1225 guns, 384 vehicles, Assault Value = 2181

Allied ground losses:
42 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Suva [FIJI]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 15103 troops, 219 guns, 128 vehicles, Assault Value = 487

Defending force 4767 troops, 47 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 173

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Soerabaja [Java]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 35977 troops, 696 guns, 619 vehicles, Assault Value = 879

Defending force 25588 troops, 164 guns, 34 vehicles, Assault Value = 393

Allied ground losses:
73 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Ye [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 10101 troops, 150 guns, 110 vehicles, Assault Value = 313

Defending force 20244 troops, 304 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 283

Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Canton [S China]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 20887 troops, 241 guns, 87 vehicles, Assault Value = 786

Defending force 25605 troops, 256 guns, 1 vehicles, Assault Value = 1308

Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Moulmein [Burma]

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9439 troops, 37 guns, 548 vehicles, Assault Value = 958

Defending force 17232 troops, 353 guns, 23 vehicles, Assault Value = 687

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Ground combat at Ondorhaan [MON]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 6025 troops, 114 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 265

Defending force 4455 troops, 22 guns, 43 vehicles, Assault Value = 116

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Ground combat at 35,40

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 28629 troops, 408 guns, 3 vehicles, Assault Value = 1927

Defending force 11896 troops, 177 guns, 139 vehicles, Assault Value = 359

Allied max assault: 2902 - adjusted assault: 1550

Japanese max defense: 344 - adjusted defense: 927

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
232 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Allied ground losses:
1295 casualties reported
Guns lost 40
Vehicles lost 1

I'm getting close to a 2:1 ratio here and have another couple of armies whose HQs I've changed heading down to help out. Hopefully they'll be enough. Once I can force a single retreat I'll be able to push this enemy division all the way south through Hue to Camranh Bay.... which ought to really antagonise Damian. The need to leave an entire Field Army to garrison each captured base is draining my front-line forces but I've liberated another 6 Field Armies from deep inside China and they are currently on their way.

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Ground combat at Taung Gyi [Burma]

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 9675 troops, 134 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 746

Defending force 14992 troops, 271 guns, 30 vehicles, Assault Value = 340

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Ground combat at Rangoon [Burma]

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 3752 troops, 31 guns, 302 vehicles, Assault Value = 186

Defending force 7819 troops, 50 guns, 32 vehicles, Assault Value = 56

Allied max assault: 352 - adjusted assault: 18

Japanese max defense: 64 - adjusted defense: 449

Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese ground losses:
9 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
348 casualties reported
Guns lost 11
Vehicles lost 12

Oops, definitely need more troops here. Fortunately another 600 AV are just a day or two away so I'll wait for them and then push on through.

My Pacific fleet is almost completely gathered now at a desolate sea hex some 1200 miles from their targets ( I am planning to invade multiple bases at the same time ) and my Australian forces are all at sea and steaming hard but they are a long way from where I want to use them.

ny59giants · Post by **ny59giants** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:31 am

"A View from the Cheap Seats"

I see that you both have different views of the battlefield, which in this case is the whole map. You look at it from a strategic point of view and then devise tactical strategies to accomplish those strategic goals. Damian looks at the map more from a tactical level. He is looking to put out the fires without focusing on the source of the fuel for those fires.

I was in the Navy from 77 to 84 and thus studied some of the Soviet doctrine in passing and then later did some on board games. Damian, does not understand the willingness to have higher than normal losses to achieve goals. This is a "western" philosophy of warfare - minimize casualties. In hypothetical battles in Germany, NATO could not stop the Soviets straight on, but rather interdict their supply lines and gain local superiority. I suggested to Damian that he look for what he doesn't see just as much at what he sees. An example would have been, why is it so quite around Australia?? That should have raised his suspicions somewhat.

He has played only Japan in PBEMs and that hurts his perspective of what the Allies are fully capable of.

As to the use of Nell/Betty. He used those almost exclusively in our game and the Army LB were used very little (besides the Sally) in the front lines.

Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

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RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

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RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )

RE: Defeating the Devil !!! ( aka Damian )