B25J and tropedoes

[pad152]

It seems the B25J carried just about weapon at one time or another including torpedoes, is this capability in AE?

[wdolson]

While some B-25s were tested with torpedoes, no B-25 ever dropped a torpedo in anger. 

Sorry, it's not in AE.  B-26s with torpedoes aren't either because they were only used with torpedoes on a coupleof occasions in June 1942 and had zero successes.

Bill

[DivePac88]

Some B-26As carried torpedoes at midway, and one actually got to launch a torpedo at a Japanese carrier if I remember correctly. I recall that the torpedo that the B-26 launched didn’t run correctly; the torpedo broached off the top of a wave, and flew over the flight deck of the carrier. I think that it was decided around that time by the USAAF that medium bombers were not that good at launching torpedoes.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Some B-26As carried torpedoes at midway, and one actually got to launch a torpedo at a Japanese carrier if I remember correctly. I recall that the torpedo that the B-26 launched didn’t run correctly; the torpedo broached off the top of a wave, and flew over the flight deck of the carrier. I think that it was decided around that time by the USAAF that medium bombers were not that good at launching torpedoes.

it flew over the deck of the carrier? Are you serious or is this just a myth?[X(]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Some B-26As carried torpedoes at midway, and one actually got to launch a torpedo at a Japanese carrier if I remember correctly. I recall that the torpedo that the B-26 launched didn’t run correctly; the torpedo broached off the top of a wave, and flew over the flight deck of the carrier. I think that it was decided around that time by the USAAF that medium bombers were not that good at launching torpedoes.

......and yet, the Brits had that wonderful Beaufort!

[Long Lance]

Objection! HIJMS Ryujo was sunk by a B-26 with a single Torpedo-hit!
 
Must have been ~ 1990, when being at War in South Pacific on the Commodore 64[;)]
 
Those were the days, my friend...

[spence]

Why would anyone think that the USAAF had much use for torpedos? Helpful as it might be knowing which end of the "boat" is the front was not part of the curriculum at flight school.

On the other hand the US Navy might have thought of such weaponry as having some use. During 1942 they only had PBYs but in the latter years of the war they had some suitable planes: PBJ and PV-1s and PV-2s. To my knowledge not one of these aircraft were ever used to make a war shot but I came upon this photo which shows a torpedo being loaded onto a PV-1 or PV-2 at what appears to be an Aleutian base. The implication would seem to be that none of these aircraft made a warshot because none ever found a suitable target rather than that the USN never tried with some of their medium bomber/patrol bomber types.

[YankeeAirRat]

Remember that most of the US Navy's shore based VB units primary mission was ASW work, attacking surface units was relgated to a secondary role. The most effective weapon against a submarine? Depth bombs. The flying boats of PBY's, PBM's, and PB2Y's were supposed to be used for the surface ship attack role while hunting for the enemy fleet. If they sighted the main body then they would loiter reporting it back to home base, on the other hand if they ran across the enemy train they would attack the transports and supply ships. Everyone believed that level bombing was going to be successful against surface shipping so that is why even the the TBD and TBF's had fittings to take on the Norden Bombing. Torpedo attacks were very hard to pull off successfully. You had to fly at a certain height and a certain speed. Which was very hard to pull off successfully with out a whole bunch of training. It was even hard to pull off against a steaming ship.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Some B-26As carried torpedoes at midway, and one actually got to launch a torpedo at a Japanese carrier if I remember correctly. I recall that the torpedo that the B-26 launched didn’t run correctly; the torpedo broached off the top of a wave, and flew over the flight deck of the carrier. I think that it was decided around that time by the USAAF that medium bombers were not that good at launching torpedoes.

The case where the torpedo went over the deck was in the Aleutians where a B-26 dropped on a Japanese carrier during the Dutch Harbor raid (June 1942). The seas were so rough that the carrier's deck was shut down. A wave carried the torpedo over the deck of the carrier. The B-26 pilot returned to base, loaded up another torpedo, took off against the recommendation of just about everyone at the base (the weather was closing in), and was never seen or heard from again.

A few B-26s from Midway carried torpedoes and a few in the Aleutians when the Japanese attacked up there. After that, no B-26 ever carried a torpedo into combat again.

Bill

[DivePac88]

Yes Mr. wdolson is correct (silly me), the torpedo launch against the carrier was in the Aleutians. Here are some entries I found on B-26 carrying torpedoes:

The first B-26B was accepted on April 5, 1942, and 26 re-equipped the 69th and 70th squadrons, 38th Group, which made the first B-26 overwater flight to Hawaii. The first two B-26Bs arrived in time for the Battle of Midway, when they and two 22nd Bomb Group B-26s made a gallant, but unsuccessful, torpedo attack on June 4, 1942.

Four Marauders were used in the torpedo-bomber role at the Battle of Midway in June 1942, scoring no hits and losing two of their number. Torpedo-carrying Marauders attacked the Japanese carrier RYUJO off the Aleutians the same day, but no hits were scored. These were the first and last times the Marauder saw combat with the USAAF as a torpedo bomber.

And a picture;

[castor troy]

guess there was no real need for the US to employ torpedo carrying medium bombers as the bomb carrying medium bombers did just fine...

[wdolson]

By 1943, it became obvious that air launched torpedos were really only needed when going after capital ships.  With skip bombing and rockets, anything smaller or thinner skinned than a destroyer could be more easily destroyed by those means.  Cruisers were vulnerable to dive bombers dropping 1000 lb bombs.  So the only ships that were consisdered torpedo fodder were carriers and battleships.

The Navy's land based twin engine planes may have been torpedo capable, but they never had any reasonable targets in range.  Their primary mission was ASW.  Occasionally they were able to go after a merchant ship or a small warship, but the IJN kept their biggest assets well away from US land based air.  The Guadalcanal and subsequent Solomons campaign taught them that. 

Bill

[Howard Mitchell]

A big problem with the air launched torpedo was the quite low maximum speed it could be released at. The last place you want to be with a large aircraft is low and slow, but there was no other way of launching one.

On a bomb run the aircraft could keep its speed much higher, reducing the time it was in the enemy’s AA fire. A 15 March 1943 document from the MTO quoted by William Wolf in his book on the B-25 says that speeds should be above 220 mph.

B-25s did drop GT-1 Glide torpedoes against Japanese targets very late in the war. These had the big advantage that they could be released at a much greater height and distance. Several attacks were carried out from July 1945 by the 1st Provisional Glide Torpedo Squadron against Sasebo, Makurazaki, Kagoshima and Nagasaki but due to the long range they were released from it was impossible to determine their effectiveness. Had the war not ended future missions would have been accompanied by reconnaissance planes.

[spence]

The Navy's land based twin engine planes may have been torpedo capable, but they never had any reasonable targets in range. Their primary mission was ASW. Occasionally they were able to go after a merchant ship or a small warship,

This is a false assertion. Not to say that they didn't perform the ASW mission but that they performed strike missions against sea and land targets with every bit as much emphasis as ASW. In the Atlantic, by the time the Navy had non-seaplane land-based air, the Uboats constituted practically the only targets around so there their mission was totally dominated by ASW. Squadron histories at VPNavy.com tell a much different story.

[mdiehl]

B-25 pilots operated by the USN were trained in torpedo attack, as were PBY drivers. If, as many suggest, this consim is to allow players to explore the range of possibilities rather than merely replicate history, they should be torpedo capable.

[Terminus]

Modders can do as they see fit. The released game will not have torpedo-capable B-25s.

[Anthropoid]

I so enjoy reading you tech-history-buffs having your debates and comparing notes *tee hee* [:D]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Modders can do as they see fit. The released game will not have torpedo-capable B-25s.

Ohhh . . . sharks with lasers!? or at least dolphins with naval mines??

*just ignore me*

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Modders can do as they see fit. The released game will not have torpedo-capable B-25s.

After CHS and RHS, I discovered how darned easy it is to use the editor and modified many of the planes in the game.

With AE, however, much more intense research has been done on everything, so we will be kicking the tires for a looooong time before we find much that should need "customization"..[8D]

[Terminus]

And the AE editor is about 10,000,000% easier to use than the stock editor...[8D]

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Modders can do as they see fit. The released game will not have torpedo-capable B-25s.

To expand a bit on T's answer...

Every game/sim has limitations. In this game, one limitation is the load out for aircraft. It is not possible to give aircraft all their historical loadouts. So you have to pick what is most likely/useful. US medium bombers dropped a heck of a lot more bombs on ships than torpedoes, so the torpedo loadout didn't make the cut.

In an ideal world (and possibly in WitP II, if and when that happens), we will have a larger array of choices for aircraft loadouts. With this engine, the choices are much more limited and changing that was way too big a task so we make do with what we have.

Bill