Soviet Forces in Sinkiang (CHS & RHS)

[el cid again]

We seem to have it wrong: Soviet units did not enter Sinkiang until 1944 (China's Bitter Victory)

Further - it isn't the Soviet 8th Regiment investing Urumchi - but Mongolian units under Soviet Air Cover

[Stock neatly avoids the whole issue - Urumchi and Hami are not on the map in the first place]

The question now becomes: where SHOULD the Soviet 8th Infantry Regiment be????? Is it even in the Far East?

For the moment I am moving the 8th infantry and the small air base unit to Ondorhaan in Mongolia, and converting the supply sink to ROC.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

We seem to have it wrong: Soviet units did not enter Sinkiang until 1944 (China's Bitter Victory)

Further - it isn't the Soviet 8th Regiment investing Urumchi - but Mongolian units under Soviet Air Cover

[Stock neatly avoids the whole issue - Urumchi and Hami are not on the map in the first place]

The question now becomes: where SHOULD the Soviet 8th Infantry Regiment be????? Is it even in the Far East?

For the moment I am moving the 8th infantry and the small air base unit to Ondorhaan in Mongolia, and converting the supply sink to ROC.

The Soviets were in Sinkinag well before 1944. In fact they had been in that part of China on and off for decades. They were still present in 1941 but by 1943 their influence had waned.

When I added the Soviets to Sinkiang I had (and still have) virtually no information that I could use as source material. I could only find a little information online, including this page:

The Soviets in Xinjiang (1911-1949)

This page mentions a Soviet "8th Regiment" in Sinkiang, but I am sure that it is probably apocryphal, and almost certainly out of data anyway by 1941. But in the absence of better information I simply used the name "8th Regiment" in lieu of more accurate information, to represent the Soviet forces in Sinkiang at the time of the Pacific war. I am happy to correct this if better information is available, so if you have found some please let me know.

Andrew

[treespider]

At the start of our game the Soviets are not likely to have been in Sinkiang. Both Hsu Long-Hsuen and FF Liu descibe how "Governor" Sheng Shih-tsai "showed his inclination toward the Central Government." Shortly after the German invasion of the Soviet Union the Soviets put increasing pressure on Sheng to provide  them resources. This caused Sheng to move closer to Chiang and the Soviets were forced to leave the area. Hsuen then descirbes how later in the war in May of 43 the Soviets instigated the "Altai Incident" a rebellion led by a Kazak supported by Mongolia Units covered by Russian planes.

[el cid again]

In China's Bitter Victory it is clear that Mao was not concerned about the Russians - but worried about the British and Americans because they had colonial aims. The Mongol incursion covered by Soviet planes was something of a surprise - and it came late in the war (I thought it said 1944).

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: treespider

At the start of our game the Soviets are not likely to have been in Sinkiang. Both Hsu Long-Hsuen and FF Liu descibe how "Governor" Sheng Shih-tsai "showed his inclination toward the Central Government." Shortly after the German invasion of the Soviet Union the Soviets put increasing pressure on Sheng to provide them resources. This caused Sheng to move closer to Chiang and the Soviets were forced to leave the area. Hsuen then descirbes how later in the war in May of 43 the Soviets instigated the "Altai Incident" a rebellion led by a Kazak supported by Mongolia Units covered by Russian planes.

You may be right tree. It looks like the move away from the Soviets was underway in 1942, and completed in 1943, whereas in the past I have been working on the assumption that it was more in 1943. It might be simpler to change Urumchi and Hami to Nationalist Chinese control. That would be less confusing to some people as well - I get an occasional question about the Sinkiang bases being attached to the Soviet HQ.

Andrew

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

In China's Bitter Victory it is clear that Mao was not concerned about the Russians - but worried about the British and Americans because they had colonial aims. The Mongol incursion covered by Soviet planes was something of a surprise - and it came late in the war (I thought it said 1944).

He should've been - the Russkies were no friend to Mao & Co. the Russkies were seemingly much more friendly to the GMT!? (per CBV - which I've had for years but only recently been reading!)

[Kereguelen]

This article should explain the situation in Sinkiang after 1941:


Talks between Sheng Shicai and the GMD began in March 1942. By October, the negotiations were complete.and Xinjiang was once again allied with Nationalist China. For his part, Sheng quickly carried out a purge of all pro-Soviet elements in the province. Among those arrested and executed was Mao Zemin, Mao Zedong's brother, who had been sent to Xinjiang along with a number of other CCP cadres to help Sheng. The Soviets were given three months to withdraw all their military and technical personnel. In June 1943, GMD troops began to enter Xinjiang. By October, the Soviets had completely withdrawn from the province. However, Sheng's shifting of allegiance was not over yet. In the wake of Japanese victories against the Nationalists in August 1944, he reinstated martial law and began arresting GMD officials and those sympathetic to the Nationalists in Xinjiang. Such actions could no longer be tolerated by the GMD and in September, Sheng was reassigned to a post in the Nationalist capital of Chongqing and flown out of Xinjiang.

From: http://www.oxuscom.com/sovinxj.htm

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider

At the start of our game the Soviets are not likely to have been in Sinkiang. Both Hsu Long-Hsuen and FF Liu descibe how "Governor" Sheng Shih-tsai "showed his inclination toward the Central Government." Shortly after the German invasion of the Soviet Union the Soviets put increasing pressure on Sheng to provide them resources. This caused Sheng to move closer to Chiang and the Soviets were forced to leave the area. Hsuen then descirbes how later in the war in May of 43 the Soviets instigated the "Altai Incident" a rebellion led by a Kazak supported by Mongolia Units covered by Russian planes.

You may be right tree. It looks like the move away from the Soviets was underway in 1942, and completed in 1943, whereas in the past I have been working on the assumption that it was more in 1943. It might be simpler to change Urumchi and Hami to Nationalist Chinese control. That would be less confusing to some people as well - I get an occasional question about the Sinkiang bases being attached to the Soviet HQ.

Andrew

In RHS - all along - the BASES were ROC - but Hami was empty (until x.742 when a Muslim ROC division appeared there) and Urumchi was Soviet occupied - by the same units as in CHS.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: el cid again

In China's Bitter Victory it is clear that Mao was not concerned about the Russians - but worried about the British and Americans because they had colonial aims. The Mongol incursion covered by Soviet planes was something of a surprise - and it came late in the war (I thought it said 1944).

He should've been - the Russkies were no friend to Mao & Co. the Russkies were seemingly much more friendly to the GMT!? (per CBV - which I've had for years but only recently been reading!)

Well - there is this: it isn't nice to say so in the USA, but the KMT was a LENINIST party - and it ALWAYS had Soviet ties.
During the Cold War the USSR built the biggest runway on Taiwan - for Bears! During the Sino-Soviet Crisis - about which almost nothing is known in the West (McGeorge Bundy says as much as most know in Danger and Survival - and his comment is "both sides played closed hands") - I found there was a secret ROC-USSR treaty - and the ROC were telling the Soviets everything we told them (about what PRC was up to). The idea that Russia and Mao were completely in bed is quite false. But Mao's policy made it virtually so for years - of some necessity - because Russia was geographically able to help better than anyone else - because Russia was at least communist and not colonialist -
all of which makes some sense to me.

[el cid again]

One non-trivial problem we have is that ROC, Red Chinese, Russians, Mongolians (other than those serving Japan),
Muslim Chinese units, ALL are "Allies" - and nominally under the control of one player (unless a team game).

This is further complicated in the WITP stock and CHS norm of Russian passive play.

My idea of making the Red forces under Soviet command is that it might better model the fact that nominally Chinese units are not cooperating well. Being under different commands may help that. This sort of thing works well down in Indochina and Thailand in RHS - the Japanese have to earn control and economic exploitation of the area - it isn't instant and free.

[m10bob]

Sounds like a good idea..Presently I am able to stack red Chinese units with Nationalaist and go on a "whuppass raid" in Northeastern China against Japanese forces.
An alternative would be making all "red" forces static, but they still should not be able to stack, with Nationalist forces, and I do not like "house rules".

[TulliusDetritus]

El Cid Again, Jwilkerson makes a good point. Mao's party was not a traditional Leninist party "based on the revolutionary struggle of the urban working class, a class which barely existed in China. Mao therefore ignored the theory and sought to mobilize the peasantry". The Chinese communists ignored Stalin and Cominter "advices" or instructions. And of course the Soviet Union did not appreciate that. This happened on the 30's.

EDIT: no, wait. Are you saying that the KMT (Kuomintang) was a Leninist party? This is false, sorry. They were the classic "nationalist" party which appeared in many colonies. What we could call here in Europe social-democrats (because after all their programme included moderate social reforms). Their aim: getting rid of the colonial master/s and creating the classic bourgeois democratic regime. The aim of the leninists was totally different though: colonial masters out AND the creation of a Soviet regime. In fact, these 2 different movements appeared in almost every colony (especially after the October Revolution on 1917).

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

This article should explain the situation in Sinkiang after 1941:


Talks between Sheng Shicai and the GMD began in March 1942. By October, the negotiations were complete.and Xinjiang was once again allied with Nationalist China. For his part, Sheng quickly carried out a purge of all pro-Soviet elements in the province. Among those arrested and executed was Mao Zemin, Mao Zedong's brother, who had been sent to Xinjiang along with a number of other CCP cadres to help Sheng. The Soviets were given three months to withdraw all their military and technical personnel. In June 1943, GMD troops began to enter Xinjiang. By October, the Soviets had completely withdrawn from the province. However, Sheng's shifting of allegiance was not over yet. In the wake of Japanese victories against the Nationalists in August 1944, he reinstated martial law and began arresting GMD officials and those sympathetic to the Nationalists in Xinjiang. Such actions could no longer be tolerated by the GMD and in September, Sheng was reassigned to a post in the Nationalist capital of Chongqing and flown out of Xinjiang.

From: http://www.oxuscom.com/sovinxj.htm

This is accurate...my bad on the info from FF Liu. I misstated what Liu had to say. Here is the reader's digest corrected version -

Prior to the war the Soviet Union gradually tightened her hold on China's Sinkiang province. Sheng Shih-tsai was a memeber of the Russian Communist party and with him Moscow had signed the secret Sheng-Bakulin and Karpov agreement in Nov 1940. In it the Russians demanded ever increasing control over the resources of the province . this brought Sheng closer to Chiang. Shortly after the German invasion the Soviets applied even more pressure on Sheng and attempted to control more resources. Chiang blocked this through political machinations. (p171). Sino-Soviet relations became further strained when supplies destined for China were intercepted by the Soviets and seized for their own use. The nationalists were battling the pro-communist forces in Sinkiang and by May 1943, forced out all Soviet personnel except a consular staff. In April of 1944 pro-communist trrops in outer Mongolia clashed with chinese forces. (p172)

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: treespider
Prior to the war the Soviet Union gradually tightened her hold on China's Sinkiang province. Sheng Shih-tsai was a memeber of the Russian Communist party and with him Moscow had signed the secret Sheng-Bakulin and Karpov agreement in Nov 1940. In it the Russians demanded ever increasing control over the resources of the province . this brought Sheng closer to Chiang. Shortly after the German invasion the Soviets applied even more pressure on Sheng and attempted to control more resources. Chiang blocked this through political machinations. (p171). Sino-Soviet relations became further strained when supplies destined for China were intercepted by the Soviets and seized for their own use. The nationalists were battling the pro-communist forces in Sinkiang and by May 1943, forced out all Soviet personnel except a consular staff. In April of 1944 pro-communist trrops in outer Mongolia clashed with chinese forces. (p172)

This is why I could never really decide whether Urumchi should be Soviet or not. I came to the conclusion that the Soviets were present during the early part of the time period covered by WitP, but not later. When I first added them I decided to do so because:

- I was of the opinion that the situation in Sinkiang in the early years were more important to simulate, becuase I considered it unlikely that the Japanese would launch an offensive into Sinkiang after 1943, so what was placed there from 1943 onwards was less important.

- I was also of the opinion that if the Japanese looked like overrunning Sinkiang, the Soviets would consider that a Causus Belli for opening hostilities, given the threat it would have posed to them.

This was little more than largely uninformed opinion on my part, but it explains what I was thinking when I decided to make Urumchi and Hami Soviet controlled, and added the suggested house rule to CHS that if attacked by the Japanese would put the Soviets in the war.

I don't know how much this all matters though - as interesting as I find this subject I am not aware of any Japanese players actually setting out to take Urumchi in a PBEM.

Andrew

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Sounds like a good idea..Presently I am able to stack red Chinese units with Nationalaist and go on a "whuppass raid" in Northeastern China against Japanese forces.
An alternative would be making all "red" forces static, but they still should not be able to stack, with Nationalist forces, and I do not like "house rules".

Since the Reds were much more likely to attack than the nationalists, and since about 60% of ROC was local troops of generally lower quality and less inclination to follow national objectives, (unpaid Chinese troops with no sense of patriotism we can relate to were very unwilling to die attacking a better armed enemy of any size),

I would say it might be better to make the ROC static. That would simulate its vast power to resist and amazing lack of offensive nature. And let the Reds shine as they should, relatively speaking.

But at the present time, and only in RHS, it is guerilla units that are "semi-static" - and that tendency to be static is what distinguishes regulars from local based irregulars - a system I like a lot. Particularly because weak guerillas (who have lost their single static squad) are also mobile, able to (even automatically if need be) retreat, and able to pick a new base area.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

El Cid Again, Jwilkerson makes a good point. Mao's party was not a traditional Leninist party "based on the revolutionary struggle of the urban working class, a class which barely existed in China. Mao therefore ignored the theory and sought to mobilize the peasantry". The Chinese communists ignored Stalin and Cominter "advices" or instructions. And of course the Soviet Union did not appreciate that. This happened on the 30's.

EDIT: no, wait. Are you saying that the KMT (Kuomintang) was a Leninist party? This is false, sorry. They were the classic "nationalist" party which appeared in many colonies. What we could call here in Europe social-democrats (because after all their programme included moderate social reforms). Their aim: getting rid of the colonial master/s and creating the classic bourgeois democratic regime. The aim of the leninists was totally different though: colonial masters out AND the creation of a Soviet regime. In fact, these 2 different movements appeared in almost every colony (especially after the October Revolution on 1917).

Yes - you read me correctly - I am saying EXACTLY that the KMT was a Leninist party. And I am not guessing. I am even an advisor to the ROC today (one of the major problems of which is the nature of the KMT - no longer in power - and the relocated Hwangpo Military Academy). My source for this is Prof Maria Chiang - the wife of a ROC advisor today, an academic in the US who was born and educated in China. I once made the mistake (in my China studies discussion group - a rather large international and worldwide one peopled largely by China scholars, many of whom are ethnic Chinese or, like me, married to ethnic Chinese) of saying KMT was essentially "Marxist" - and she - a noted author on Chinese history - corrected that to "Leninist" - which term I have stuck with ever since. Further, note that I specifically said there was a long relationship between the Soviet regime and the KMT - there were periods it had better relations with Moscow than the Reds did - both in the period of WITP and later. I was wholly ignorant of that when I ran into it during a major crisis in the 1960s - the only shooting war between nuclear armed powers in history (which wholly unexpectedly I got to lead a crisis management team concerning at the time).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider
Prior to the war the Soviet Union gradually tightened her hold on China's Sinkiang province. Sheng Shih-tsai was a memeber of the Russian Communist party and with him Moscow had signed the secret Sheng-Bakulin and Karpov agreement in Nov 1940. In it the Russians demanded ever increasing control over the resources of the province . this brought Sheng closer to Chiang. Shortly after the German invasion the Soviets applied even more pressure on Sheng and attempted to control more resources. Chiang blocked this through political machinations. (p171). Sino-Soviet relations became further strained when supplies destined for China were intercepted by the Soviets and seized for their own use. The nationalists were battling the pro-communist forces in Sinkiang and by May 1943, forced out all Soviet personnel except a consular staff. In April of 1944 pro-communist trrops in outer Mongolia clashed with chinese forces. (p172)

This is why I could never really decide whether Urumchi should be Soviet or not. I came to the conclusion that the Soviets were present during the early part of the time period covered by WitP, but not later. When I first added them I decided to do so because:

- I was of the opinion that the situation in Sinkiang in the early years were more important to simulate, becuase I considered it unlikely that the Japanese would launch an offensive into Sinkiang after 1943, so what was placed there from 1943 onwards was less important.

- I was also of the opinion that if the Japanese looked like overrunning Sinkiang, the Soviets would consider that a Causus Belli for opening hostilities, given the threat it would have posed to them.

This was little more than largely uninformed opinion on my part, but it explains what I was thinking when I decided to make Urumchi and Hami Soviet controlled, and added the suggested house rule to CHS that if attacked by the Japanese would put the Soviets in the war.

I don't know how much this all matters though - as interesting as I find this subject I am not aware of any Japanese players actually setting out to take Urumchi in a PBEM.

Andrew

It may indeed be an academic discussion. Is it even possible for Japanese forces - however supported - to make a move on this area? Is not the long LOC with no possibility of naval supply, few opportunities for air supply, and no rail line,
impossible to use in such a way?

[TulliusDetritus]

El Cid Again, sorry, but that lady (Maria Chang) got all wrong... with all due respect though [8D] The Kuomintang was founded on 1912 (its roots, the Revive China Society, founded on 1895). At that epoch Lenin was nothing but the obscure leader of the Bolshevik faction. To be more precise, at that moment he was exiled. So an anonymous "Lenin" hardly could be a source of "inspiration". It's totally absurd. The world only knew Lenin after the February Revolution (1917), when he came back to Russia. He was still the leader of an irrelevant party though. He obviously became "famous" after the October Revolution.

Now it is true that Chinese communists (along with other political groups) joined the Kuomintang (following instructions from the Comintern). But this does not make this party "leninist", communist or whatever. They clearly were the classic "nationalist" party which appeared in many colonies, as I said in my previous post. Humm, are you sure you didn't read something like this: "Soviet advisers began to arrive in China in 1923 to aid in the reorganization and consolidation of the KMT along the lines of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, establishing a Leninist party structure"?

Because if they were "leninists" (a.k.a. communists) why would they massacre the communists on Shanghai on 1927? It does not make sense at all.

Believe me, that lady is utterly wrong (again, with all due respect) [:)]

[el cid again]

I don't disagree with your early history of Lenin - or even the KMT. And I don't think the KMT was in its deep roots "inspired" by him either. Indeed - you are talking about the era of Dr Sun Yat Sin (a leader claimed by both KMT and CCP to this day) - never mind that his ideas were not really those implemented after his death. Chiang was nothing more than Sun's chief of security - and what the KMT became by the period of WITP has a great deal more to do with Chiang than it does with Sun at the time of its birth. So in a sense - we are both right. You just are talking about a deeper set of roots than I am - and the roots of the post-Sun era pretty much made the theories of the earlier decade meaningless by the WITP period.

And yes, I really am referring to the 1923 and later restructuring of the party along Leninist lines - just so. It isn't that the CCP joined the KMT that made it Leninist - it is its own decision to follow Soviet advisors to reorganize along those lines that did.

What may be confusing for you is that a Leninist can also be anti-communist, in particular in China, and in particular in the KMT. A Leninist follows Lenin's theory of party organization.

My point is that we long regarded as an ally a Leninist party led by a wholly undemocratic dictator - Chiang -
a man with much more in common with our enemies than we like to admit. He joined the "Anti-Komintern Pact" of Germany and Japan as a charter member, and Nazi German military advisors reorganized something like 10 divisions of the ROC army.

[TulliusDetritus]

El Cid Again, you cannot call "leninist" a party which programme was basically the programme of "moderate social-democrats" (à la chinoise, of course). Lenin's famous sentence, order is: "All power to the Soviets". It's all about a proletarian revolution. The Kuomintang on the other hand did want a bourgeois revolution (a democratic republic where private property is not abolished). It's radically different. To use again the Russian analogy, Chiang Kai Shek would be Kerenski.

If in China being a "leninist" may mean "anti-communist", then I affirm the Chinese haven't understood anything.

Anyway, I think we may be off topic, so apologies. Sorry for hijacking the thread [:)]