Hello,
I´m just playing "Operation Door Kicker", Harpoon ANW Gouge Demo, scen #1.
Just stumbled over an issue which is rather old and should have been resolved afaik:
Helos assigned to sonobuyo stations using the Formation Editor don´t return to their mother ship after their ordnance is expended. They line up behind the Carrier group, loitering.
Picture attached.
Regards,
Ralf
Formation Editor: Helos on sonobuyo mission don´t return
Moderator: Harpoon 3
Harpoon
Your description and image lacks sufficient detail in defining exactly what you mean by 'ordnance'. If you mean that the helos fail to return for re-arming after expenditure of all available sonobuoys, this has already been previously reported within this thread 8 months ago:ORIGINAL: koelbach
Helos assigned to sonobuyo stations using the Formation Editor don´t return to their mother ship after their ordnance is expended. They line up behind the Carrier group, loitering.
Sonobuoy blues (and reds, and greens...)
Herman (He Who Shalt Not Do Beta)
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Anonymous
RE: Harpoon
Hello,
Yes, that is what I meant. Thanks for clarifying it. Sometimes it is not easy for a non native-speaker.
Regards,
Ralf
ORIGINAL: hermanhum
Your description and image lacks sufficient detail in defining exactly what you mean by 'ordnance'. If you mean that the helos fail to return for re-arming after expenditure of all available sonobuoys, this has already been previously reported within this thread 8 months ago:ORIGINAL: koelbach
Helos assigned to sonobuyo stations using the Formation Editor don´t return to their mother ship after their ordnance is expended. They line up behind the Carrier group, loitering.
Sonobuoy blues (and reds, and greens...)
Herman (He Who Shalt Not Do Beta)
Yes, that is what I meant. Thanks for clarifying it. Sometimes it is not easy for a non native-speaker.
Regards,
Ralf
RE: Harpoon
In fact today I say an IL-May, attacking an enemy sub (on substrike mission), its dropped its torps, missed, and satyed on station. A second May joined, dropped its torp on the sub, killed it, and BOTH now stayed on station over the place where the sub used to be.
Definitely wrong logic, the first May should have RTB-ed to get more torps, and after killing the sub both Mays (out of torps should have RTB-ed too).
Freek
Definitely wrong logic, the first May should have RTB-ed to get more torps, and after killing the sub both Mays (out of torps should have RTB-ed too).
Freek
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rsharp@advancedgamin
- Posts: 430
- Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:39 am
- Contact:
RE: Harpoon
Howdy,
Without looking into further detail, I'd say both Ralf's and Freek's reports were related to one behavior.
Craft on sonobuoy station will lay a line of sonobuoy and then 'tend' to them. They are maintaining communication with the sonobuoys and reporting contacts to their network. The surface group will often move beyond them as the sonobuoy station craft wait. If there are no sonobuoys laid (I can't know by the screenshots if sonobuoys are being displayed) and so no reason for the helos to loiter, then that would be a bug. The handling of this situation (surface group passes up the sono-net while helos loiter) might be improved if we model the capability of the surface craft handling comms for the sonobuoys. Outside of my current scope for 3.9.x so it will wait.
Freek's report on the RTB logic may be related to the same behavior. I think this is a stronger case for making an exception in the logic. Still it would have to balance maintaining comms with the sonobuoys that might be keeping a lock on the target and making weapons available. I can see how they both should have RTB-ed after the target was destroyed.
Thanks,
Without looking into further detail, I'd say both Ralf's and Freek's reports were related to one behavior.
Craft on sonobuoy station will lay a line of sonobuoy and then 'tend' to them. They are maintaining communication with the sonobuoys and reporting contacts to their network. The surface group will often move beyond them as the sonobuoy station craft wait. If there are no sonobuoys laid (I can't know by the screenshots if sonobuoys are being displayed) and so no reason for the helos to loiter, then that would be a bug. The handling of this situation (surface group passes up the sono-net while helos loiter) might be improved if we model the capability of the surface craft handling comms for the sonobuoys. Outside of my current scope for 3.9.x so it will wait.
Freek's report on the RTB logic may be related to the same behavior. I think this is a stronger case for making an exception in the logic. Still it would have to balance maintaining comms with the sonobuoys that might be keeping a lock on the target and making weapons available. I can see how they both should have RTB-ed after the target was destroyed.
Thanks,
Harpoon
This (correct and superior) behaviour was in both H2 and H3. Aircraft that were either out of sonobuoys or out of weapons would RTB whether on Formation Air Patrol or ASW area patrol mission.ORIGINAL: FreekS
Definitely wrong logic, the first May should have RTB-ed to get more torps, and after killing the sub both Mays (out of torps should have RTB-ed too).
This was deliberately changed in ANW so that the aircraft would loiter and remain on station.
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Anonymous
RE: Harpoon
Russell,
Sonobuyos are displayed. The helos haven´t laid a single one. Worse: They don´t move to their designated stations (patrol zones). They launch, fly around until they are beyond the formation. When they´ve reached bingo, they RTB. Tested this scen in both Gouge Demo GE and 3.9.3.
It doesn´t work as it should. [:@]
Ralf
ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin
Howdy,
[...]
Craft on sonobuoy station will lay a line of sonobuoy and then 'tend' to them. They are maintaining communication with the sonobuoys and reporting contacts to their network. The surface group will often move beyond them as the sonobuoy station craft wait. If there are no sonobuoys laid (I can't know by the screenshots if sonobuoys are being displayed) and so no reason for the helos to loiter, then that would be a bug. The handling of this situation (surface group passes up the sono-net while helos loiter) might be improved if we model the capability of the surface craft handling comms for the sonobuoys. Outside of my current scope for 3.9.x so it will wait.
[...]
Thanks,
Sonobuyos are displayed. The helos haven´t laid a single one. Worse: They don´t move to their designated stations (patrol zones). They launch, fly around until they are beyond the formation. When they´ve reached bingo, they RTB. Tested this scen in both Gouge Demo GE and 3.9.3.
It doesn´t work as it should. [:@]
Ralf
RE: Harpoon
I've seen the bahaviour Ralf describes too. Helos fall back way behind the formation. Its bad paractice even if it were caused by the logic described by Russell because often, all available helo's are behind the formation waiting for fuel to run out and theres no defense along the line of movement
The behaviour of the Mays might be related, but they were on substrike and whats the point of them loitering without torpedos waiting for a new contact to appear? I think as Herman says, out of buoys OR out of weapons they should RTB.
Freek
The behaviour of the Mays might be related, but they were on substrike and whats the point of them loitering without torpedos waiting for a new contact to appear? I think as Herman says, out of buoys OR out of weapons they should RTB.
Freek
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Anonymous
RE: Harpoon
ORIGINAL: FreekS
I've seen the bahaviour Ralf describes too. Helos fall back way behind the formation. Its bad paractice even if it were caused by the logic described by Russell because often, all available helo's are behind the formation waiting for fuel to run out and theres no defense along the line of movement
[...]
Freek
Yes, no way calling this behaviour realistic or clever. Has anyone ever heard of ASW helos falling behind their carrier group instead of searching the area in front of it? Not mentioned that they don´t take their assigned patrol zones or the problems with laying sonobuyos.
No need to discuss this - it simply has to be fixed.
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Anonymous
RE: Harpoon
Just played another scen under another db (HUD 3) under another game engine (3.9.3): No problems - helos take their stations, lay their buyos and RTB, being replaced by other helos.
Everything works as intended.
Thus the whole issue may be database (USNI) or game engine (Gouge Demo exe) related.
Everything works as intended.
Thus the whole issue may be database (USNI) or game engine (Gouge Demo exe) related.
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rsharp@advancedgamin
- Posts: 430
- Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:39 am
- Contact:
RE: Harpoon
What version of game engine are you using with the demo? I've updated the demo to 3.9.4 and will link it here if you like. It will be available to the public once 3.9.4 is released (can only say 'very soon') but available by request now.
Thanks,
Thanks,
Harpoon
Reversion to the previously functional H2/H3 behaviour would probably be the easiest and most efficient way instead of trying to come up with some new lame implementation so as to get the (new) square pegs into the (previously) round holes.ORIGINAL: koelbach
Yes, no way calling this behaviour realistic or clever. Has anyone ever heard of ASW helos falling behind their carrier group instead of searching the area in front of it? Not mentioned that they don´t take their assigned patrol zones or the problems with laying sonobuyos.
No need to discuss this - it simply has to be fixed.
In case anyone missed it,
ORIGINAL: hermanhum
This (correct and superior) behaviour was in both H2 and H3. Aircraft that were either out of sonobuoys or out of weapons would RTB whether on Formation Air Patrol or ASW area patrol mission.
RE: Harpoon
ORIGINAL: FreekS
In fact today I say an IL-May, attacking an enemy sub (on substrike mission), its dropped its torps, missed, and satyed on station. A second May joined, dropped its torp on the sub, killed it, and BOTH now stayed on station over the place where the sub used to be.
Definitely wrong logic, the first May should have RTB-ed to get more torps, and after killing the sub both Mays (out of torps should have RTB-ed too).
Freek
I apologize to bring this up as a new find, it is in fact the same issue as Mantis 1383. Decision was then taken that maintaining contact is priority over RTB and getting new torps. I don't agree with this. Oh well. My testing was done with RC9 and PDB.
Freek
Harpoon
I remember that one. I looked back in my archives when the Mantis system [ http://mantis.computerharpoon.com ]was still public (This was a time before Bugs were declared state secrets by AGSI.)ORIGINAL: FreekS
I apologize to bring this up as a new find, it is in fact the same issue as Mantis 1383. Decision was then taken that maintaining contact is priority over RTB and getting new torps. I don't agree with this. Oh well. My testing was done with RC9 and PDB.
You tried to report that bug in May 2006 (6 weeks before ANW was ever released). Looks like this problem is still with us 3 years later. [:@]
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Anonymous
RE: Harpoon
Hello Russell,
I used the game engine implemented, which is named 3.9.4. Yes, give a link of the updated demo.
IMO it needs a full relaunch:
- game engine and
- database
Otherwise it won´t attract potential players, it will scare them to death regarding, game speed, database issues, ge issues.
ORIGINAL: rsharp@advancedgamin
What version of game engine are you using with the demo? I've updated the demo to 3.9.4 and will link it here if you like. It will be available to the public once 3.9.4 is released (can only say 'very soon') but available by request now.
Thanks,
I used the game engine implemented, which is named 3.9.4. Yes, give a link of the updated demo.
IMO it needs a full relaunch:
- game engine and
- database
Otherwise it won´t attract potential players, it will scare them to death regarding, game speed, database issues, ge issues.
-
Anonymous
RE: Harpoon
Just took another look at this scen #1 of the Gouge Battleset. This time with several different game engines; especially with 3.9.3 release.
The helos launch but hover at 0 knots over the mother ship.
The good news:
It doesn´t look like a ge based issue - that seems to be resolved since some time.
The bad news:
Obviously the USNI database is VERY flawed in many aspects, regarding many units, regarding ammo dumps, magazines etc.
The helos launch but hover at 0 knots over the mother ship.
The good news:
It doesn´t look like a ge based issue - that seems to be resolved since some time.
The bad news:
Obviously the USNI database is VERY flawed in many aspects, regarding many units, regarding ammo dumps, magazines etc.
Harpoon
This game-killing problem has not been fixed in Patch 3.9.4
Sonobuoy helos fail to RTB
2. Plot long path for convoy north
3. Helos will launch, lay sonobuoys and then hover when out of buoys instead of RTB for more buoys
4. Convoy sails over buoys
5. In H3, helos would launch, lay buoys, exhaust them, and return for reload right away after displaying a "Out of relevant ammo; returning to base" message; thus buoys always appeared in front of the convoy to screen them
Sonobuoy helos fail to RTB
- Helos will launch, lay sonobuoys and then hover when out of buoys instead of RTB for more buoys
2. Plot long path for convoy north
3. Helos will launch, lay sonobuoys and then hover when out of buoys instead of RTB for more buoys
4. Convoy sails over buoys
5. In H3, helos would launch, lay buoys, exhaust them, and return for reload right away after displaying a "Out of relevant ammo; returning to base" message; thus buoys always appeared in front of the convoy to screen them