Sorry, but this is wrong

[junk2drive]

I'm not arguing with you eddy but the danger in discounting is once you set that pattern, a group of people will hold off purchasing until a sale. No matter how long it takes.

[Erik Rutins]

I see a few people here taking one or two games and jumping to conclusions about pricing policies, attitudes towards customers and future trends. With all due respect, while we welcome constructive criticism, some of these comments are ridiculous. We hold our customers in the highest regard and we do everything we can to continue to provide you with quality wargames at the most reasonable price that makes continuing this business possible for us and our developers. Whether you choose to buy a game at a particular price is entirely up to you, but I would appreciate if there were a bit more benefit of the doubt regarding our real costs and how we look on our customers.

The assumption that we are out to screw our customers, when I know what the real decision-making process is, gets on my nerves. We went out of our way with this release to offer two games combined (plus the bonus archival versions) for less than their previous combined price, with a substantial discount for existing customers that effectively gives more than one game away for free based on their previous prices and still provide free updates to the new release level. We hear the same thing from some posters whether a game is released that costs $80, $50 or $35. Apparently, there is a world where publishers and developers can develop, maintain and sell wargames for $5-$10 to a niche market and still make a living. Those of you who know where it is, please point me there, it sounds lovely.

In this reality, we are doing everything we can do to keep prices down and offer value. Customers regularly confuse what's possible in terms of pricing and development on mainstream computer games with huge markets and economies of scale that we don't have. Niche markets work differently. When you have a game that has a limited market and is developed with limited funding and a small team (in many cases, just one programmer), it makes a big difference in terms of what you can actually do in a year or two development-wise and how much the game has to cost in order to make it possible for even a single programmer to make a living working on the game full-time.

I think this reality is lost on many customers, who base their assumptions on what they see and hear of the mainstream games market, which may as well exist on another planet as far as out business realities are concerned. Frankly, for the budgets we have, I know that we do a heck of a lot more than most mainstream game publishers and developers could do with the same money. It is ultimately your decision whether we did a good enough job or not to deserve your money and that is the fair way that the market works. However, I would appreciate if some of you would make that decision without the unnecessary and incorrect assumptions about our motives, ethics or attitudes.

With all that said, I encourage previous customers again to try the free updates once they are available and I also hope that those of you with other theories on what goes on behind the scenes here will please leave them behind. The only thing we do, which is the only rational thing a business can do, is try to provide the most value we can for the price to encourage you to choose our products.

Regards,

- Erik

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
I'm not arguing with you eddy but the danger in discounting is once you set that pattern, a group of people will hold off purchasing until a sale. No matter how long it takes.

If your business model is forfeiting a lot of additional income from gamers willing to give a game they're not really interested in a try for $20 to avoid that some cheapskates wait 5 years for a game they really want to play to come down to that price point, you're doing something wrong.

Everyone discounts older products. There's a reason for this.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Everyone discounts older products. There's a reason for this.

We have discounted older products and we also regularly discount pretty much all products (our holiday sale lasts for almost two months of every year, for example) to make sure we also make lower price points possible. We do not discount older products as quickly as mainstream game companies with a massive retail-based secondary market, for obvious reasons.

The discounting you see on mainstream titles is largely because they have a very narrow window of peak "voice" in the market and that's why they see most of their full-price sales very quickly and they then rapidly discount to get incremental profit through as many channels as possible. We do not see most of our full-price sales quickly and our games do not age the same way most mainstream games do. It takes much longer before there is time and money to develop the next greatest wargame that replaces a previous one on the same subject, often years, whereas it can be weeks or months for mainstream games. In the meantime, the original game remains the best on the subject and is often still recouping the developer's costs. Wargame development is often less technologically intensive, but more costly in terms of time and resources in many other areas due to the level of complexity and historical accuracy involved in many of these titles.

Our market is much more similar to that for board wargames or miniature wargames than for other computer games, for the most part.

Regards,

- Erik

[sabre1]

V22 Osprey,

"Otherwise they might as well make this game monthly subscription."

Don't give them any ideas. [;)]

There was a company "Novastar" that use to do scenarios with stories and historical commentary each month for "Tanks", I use to subscribe to it, and looked forward each month to the scenarios. That was before the Internet took off and you had services like "The Source", Compuserve, GENIE, etc...

Every month was a newsletter, and I even got a 3 ring bider with strategy and tactics in it. Wow, those were the good old days.

[junk2drive]

There wasn't as much competition for your dollars back then either.

I think Novastar was involved in some other games too with scenario discs and stuff.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I'm not arguing with you eddy but the danger in discounting is once you set that pattern, a group of people will hold off purchasing until a sale. No matter how long it takes.

True. I must admit I do that with pretty much all mainstream releases now because they will be usually available for a big discount on Steam after a relatively short time. It's also a wise policy with products generating DLC as well, as wait a while and the whole lot gets bundled up in one edition.

[rich12545]

I think the Ultimate package is priced right. And I think the discount for those who bought one game is right. But the discount for those who bought two isn't. How can you give the discount to those who bought two games the same as those who bought one? It makes no sense at all.

Wow, Novastar. Brings back some memories. I think that's where Wild Bill started making scenarios iirc.

[Rosseau]

I still have some Novastar newsletters. The subscription for a couple of issues would have bought me last week the entire ToW collection on Steam. Pricing has gone crazy, and it has become a much more sensitive issue, particularly in this forum.

I think almost everyone can agree that Matrix is not looking to screw over its customers, and Erik was justified in feeling hurt along those lines. But I have to admit, I have taken umbrage at some of the pricing, at least until the shock wears off. It's a fine line for Matrix, and I'm sure they are aware of the risks either way.

[Terl]

ORIGINAL: rosseau

I still have some Novastar newsletters. The subscription for a couple of issues would have bought me last week the entire ToW collection on Steam. Pricing has gone crazy, and it has become a much more sensitive issue, particularly in this forum.

I think almost everyone can agree that Matrix is not looking to screw over its customers, and Erik was justified in feeling hurt along those lines. But I have to admit, I have taken umbrage at some of the pricing, at least until the shock wears off. It's a fine line for Matrix, and I'm sure they are aware of the risks either way.

I agree. I never thought I was being screwed over or taken advantage of. I just wanted to say I was not interested in buying this or others at the higher prices. It is not that they are not worth the money, but more that money is tight and one needs to take care these days and be sure on the purchases.

[Vincenzo_Beretta]

ORIGINAL: Nebogipfel

I guess, everyone here is smart enough to recognize, that such complex games like Harpoon will allways have some couple of bugs

Those even more smarter will find some couple of HUNDREDS of bugs. And, sadly, I agree: a game like Harpoon will always have these - but not because it is "complex".

Want to look at a complex game and check what Matrix was able to do to IMPROVE it - given some programmers with real balls? Chech the TOAW III board.

[Erik Rutins]

Vincenzo,

I believe you've read the forum guidelines regarding non-constructive posts and bug reports based on third party databases. Consider this a warning.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: rich12545
Wow, Novastar. Brings back some memories. I think that's where Wild Bill started making scenarios iirc.

Indeed - Wild Bill and Mike Wood (the programmer for those camaigns) created most of the Mega Campaigns for Steel Panthers with us after NovaStar sadly closed.

Regards,

- Erik

[junk2drive]

I installed DoxBox just so I could try Tanks!. We've come a long way.

[Nebogipfel]

Hi Vincenzo glad to see you´re alive [;)]

you seem to have lost the other part of my post, that ANW is/was till 3.10 still buggy.

But it would be a bit harsh to say, that it´s unplayable.

Regards

[billyjj]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

If the higher price is needed to keep making games, so be it.

I guess you don't understand the simple fact that the price will come down if you weren't so eager to pay. It is plain and simple to see this is all a money grab once again. You are a Matrix fanboy and there is nothing i can do, but the majority of people are being turned off by the price. So they will have to raise the prices even higher to make up for less customers and who will pay for this? The loyal matrix fanboy that believes whatever Erik Rutgens posts about why he has to charge and arm and a leg.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: billyjj

I guess you don't understand the simple fact that the price will come down if you weren't so eager to pay. It is plain and simple to see this is all a money grab once again. You are a Matrix fanboy and there is nothing i can do, but the majority of people are being turned off by the price. So they will have to raise the prices even higher to make up for less customers and who will pay for this? The loyal matrix fanboy that believes whatever Erik Rutgens posts about why he has to charge and arm and a leg.

I have no reason to disbelieve what Erik says, although I don't always agree with it - or some Matrix pricing - which my previous post made quite clear. I would point out that most of the comments on the price of BotB came from Panther, not Matrix; perhaps you might go read them. It may come as news to you that they, like several other developers here, actually make bugger all in the way of profits on their games; it's the day job (or the defence contracts) that pays the bills.

Apart from which, your post makes no sense. You accuse Matrix of a 'money grab', yet also claim the 'majority of people' (which people?) are being turned off by the price. On the assumption that those at Matrix are not idiots, they will choose a price that they believe will maximise their profits... they are a business, not a charity, and need to behave like one to survive. That may be more than some people are willing or able to pay (there will be some at whatever price, incuding me on some occasions, as I said), but in that respect how is that different to any other leisure product, from DVDs to golf clubs? I'd like CoD: Black Ops, but object to the 25% price premium they've stuck on it and won't buy. But 'the majority of people' still will despite far more of a 'money grab' than Matrix have ever made.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: rich12545

When a company sells a game it's expected it will be supported.

I'm sorry, but you have started this entire thread based on a half-truth. You left off the rest of the sentence, "for a time." Matrix has supported the two games packaged in this release very well for several years. Matrix does a fantastic job supporting their games, far superior to almost every other software company.

ORIGINAL: rich12545

How about trying to be fair.

.... your words, not mine.

[rich12545]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: rich12545

When a company sells a game it's expected it will be supported.

I'm sorry, but you have started this entire thread based on a half-truth. You left off the rest of the sentence, "for a time." Matrix has supported the two games packaged in this release very well for several years. Matrix does a fantastic job supporting their games, far superior to almost every other software company.

[

HAHA. Far superior to almost every other software company? If I had a dollar for every forum I've read something similar I'd be rich. (slight exaggeration)

If MG simply stopped supporting Harpoon that would be one thing. But they're not. They're still making patches. If they're still making patches then we should get them. We shouldn't have to pay $35 for future patches to the game. I've never seen that anywhere. For example, Battlefront just came out with a new addon for Shock Force. It included the new patch. Now, Shock Force has been out at least as long as Harpoon CE. I bought the addon. BUT if I hadn't I would have gotten the patch for the base game (for free) and other addons anyway. Battlefront might come out with more patches for the game. Everybody, whether or not they bought any addons, will get the patch (for free). That's the way to do business. You don't charge for future patches. I agree MG gives good service generally. But not this time. So, USS America, don't give me crap about this time.

[rich12545]

I just checked. HCE was released exactly three years ago. Real frankly, in this kind of market, that's way too soon to stop supporting a game.