Sorry, but this is wrong

[chrisol]

I guess TOAW and Harpoon illustrate the approach I've taken to these games:
 
I bought TOAW:II orginally (modern battles) and very much enjoyed the detail and approach.  I paid for TOAW:COW when it came out which added WWII scenarios and others, as well as some enhancements though the interface was much the same.  I then paid for TOAW at Matrix partly for Vista stability, partly because of the extra scenarios, partly for the few gameplay enhancements - and matrix have since updated.  It all looks much like the first one I bought though.
 
Likewise Harpoon.  I had the original for the Amiga (which didn't work well at all), and Harpoon 3.6 before it became Matrix.  I then bought Harpoon CE from Matrix and think it's fantastic but haven't wanted ANW before on balance because it didn't seem to add that much to 3.6 .  Now I can get the combined package for a discount and I'm happy to do so - again for the extra scenarios, updates (I think the boarding option has great potential) and so on.
 
I go running in my spare time to keep fit.  Spent maybe 150 USD (about £80) on a new pair of trainers this year.  They look the same as the last ones but my hobby just requires a bit of investment from time to time to keep it going.
 
I guess no-one is forcing anyone to buy Ultimate Edition - if you're happy with what you've got and it serves you well stick with it (as I did with Harpoon 3.6).  I've now taken advantage of an option to get something more than I had at what I think is a reasonable price.
 
Can't see much wrong with that either way.
 
bw
chris
 

[Spechtmeise]

I have to support Matrix here.
I work in a company that develops and sells diagnostic software for hospitals. Our customers pay between 300 and 2000 euros PER MONTH to have their software supported and updated. That is perfectly normal business procedure.
Matrix updates and supports older GAMES that we play FOR FUN, almost always for free. Surely nobody will dispute Matrix's right to repackage older games, give them an UGRADE, and sell them to a highly specialised group of wargamers that pursue this hobby voluntarily?
The notion that older software can be supported and updated for ever without ever charging anything at all is simply preposterous. Some people really need to make a reality check.

[rickier65]

Other than than the running shoes, by experience has mimiced chrisol above, both with respect to TOAW and HARPOON. I've just finished the HARPOON Ultimate install on my desktop (Win 7) and fired up HUCE and opened the manual. I started up the game and gave a quick look at the tutorial. I can already see that the manual has been updated as well.

I'm already satisfied with my purchase. Now I just need to see if I can also fit it onto my older laptop which has just 6gb left on the hard drive.

thanks!
Rick

[JudgeDredd]

I think the point is (to some people) that the current game(s) have bugs which should be fixed before repackaging and selling again...like I said, I'm going from what I read - not personal experience...although I have HCE, I've rarely played it. But "I've read" (in particular with ANW) that there are bugs which should be fixed before "moving on" with development. Supporting the hobby is fine and great...but customers deserve support as well...so if there are bugs in the current games, they should be fixed before reselling the game to those people that paid money for a working product again.

As I said, I'm NOT saying the game(s) are broken...but word on the street is that ANW at least is/was...and all I'm saying is, if they are, it's not decent to ask people to pay for updates to fix the game - although Paradox seem to have got away with it with HoI3 and Semper Fi [:-]

[NefariousKoel]

ORIGINAL: jomni

I think it's not a real Matrix decision as they don't do this to all games.
This is the decision of the Harpoon developers (AGS) who have been doing this sort of thing since the beginning.

[:D]
Sounds about right.

Someone tell them to get a new H4 started, and completed this time. That might drudge up some income.

[rich12545]

Well Erik, I've stated how I feel. You've done the same. I'm not going to continue beating a dead horse. We don't agree on this and that's that.

Can you say when the HCE patch will be available for non-Ultimate owners?

[Erik Rutins]

Hi Rich,

Fair enough. We're hoping to have the free updates available in a couple of weeks.

Regards,

- Erik

[Titanwarrior89]

I bought it a again and I think its worth it. I would have to agree with most of what you said here. Personally I am happy they put the work into it that they did.

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity

I disagree and think that it is both reasonably priced and not an unreasonable decision by Matrix, nor unprecedented. It already happened when Harpoon 3.63 was reinvented as Harpoon Advanced Naval Warfare and was reasonable then, to cover the costs of further development, as it is now. Considering the market for Harpoon, Matrix will probably be very lucky to sell a few thousand copies of the game. That is basically only going to cover the costs of having a couple of staff to update and maintain the game, for a couple of years at most. I'm happy to pay, as I did when I updated from 3.63 to ANW, in order to see the game continued to be improved and maintained, instead of development and updates coming to an end, which happens to almost every other game. I have played Harpoon for probably more than 15 years now, since way back when it was available for the Amiga and it would have to be one of the lost running series of games around, so it is great to see it continue.

Also disagree about need for a graphics improvement, 3D would be next to useless in Harpoon and the interface as it is now is sufficient and extremely functional in communicating the information needed to play the game. Admittedly Red Pill looks better, but essentially it is only the map that has been dramatically improved, on top of a slightly more polished interface, but is still essentially 2D and not much different from what Harpoon offers.

[noguaranteeofsanity]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I think the point is (to some people) that the current game(s) have bugs which should be fixed before repackaging and selling again...like I said, I'm going from what I read - not personal experience...although I have HCE, I've rarely played it. But "I've read" (in particular with ANW) that there are bugs which should be fixed before "moving on" with development. Supporting the hobby is fine and great...but customers deserve support as well...so if there are bugs in the current games, they should be fixed before reselling the game to those people that paid money for a working product again.

As I said, I'm NOT saying the game(s) are broken...but word on the street is that ANW at least is/was...and all I'm saying is, if they are, it's not decent to ask people to pay for updates to fix the game - although Paradox seem to have got away with it with HoI3 and Semper Fi [:-]

They haven't just repackaged the games and sold them as is, they have included an update with many bug fixes and 3.10 is an update for ANW, which will also be available for those who already own ANW. Its the future development that will only be available for those who purchase the ultimate edition. So Matrix are in fact, doing exactly what you are asking or expect.

As to people paying for support through upgrades, it happens all the time, no software is maintained and updated indefinitely, the best example being windows, with Microsoft ending support for older versions such as Windows 98 already and Xp in the near future, which means you have to upgrade to a newer version, in order to get continuing support, updates and patches. While it is also quite common nowadays for software packages to be maintained through subscriptions or annual support fees, which are charged on top of the purchase price, including some games which charge monthly fees to play.

[thewood1]

The difference with the MS analogy is you typically don't pay for windows before MS even tells what the upgrade is.

[rich12545]

Yeah, the MS analogy is really poor. Each windows version is a whole new product. It's not the same product with a patch. Windows XP owners, and this is still the most widely used OS, don't have to pay another $35 to get whatever XP patches might come out in the future.

[ruixilyy]

I guess $35 is not so expensive for get the Ultimate Edition. What I concerns is when will the 3.11 update and the HCE 2010 (or 2011?) update to be released? Will we have to wait another one or two years to get the Ultimate Edition updated (like 3.94 to 3.10, more than one year, and HCE 2008 to 2009, more than one year)?

[noguaranteeofsanity]

ORIGINAL: rich12545

Yeah, the MS analogy is really poor. Each windows version is a whole new product. It's not the same product with a patch. Windows XP owners, and this is still the most widely used OS, don't have to pay another $35 to get whatever XP patches might come out in the future.

You will have to pay for updates after 2014, when MS ends support for XP, which means no more patches or fixes, unless you upgrade to a newer version, which was the point I was trying to make.

[TonyE]

Will we have to wait another one or two years to get the Ultimate Edition updated (like 3.94 to 3.10, more than one year, and HCE 2008 to 2009, more than one year)?

hehe, for HC it largely depends upon how much sweat equity you put into it [8D]

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: Stratocruiser
The notion that older software can be supported and updated for ever without ever charging anything at all is simply preposterous. Some people really need to make a reality check.

Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity
They haven't just repackaged the games and sold them as is, they have included an update with many bug fixes and 3.10 is an update for ANW, which will also be available for those who already own ANW. Its the future development that will only be available for those who purchase the ultimate edition. So Matrix are in fact, doing exactly what you are asking or expect.

I'm not entirely convinced they are doing exactly what I am suggesting. You've said "many"...I think - and I apologise for anyone who doesn't agree with me - that a company has an obligation to provide bug free software before providing an updated game and re-charging for it.

In other words, if Matrix (and any other company) have a bug free program after years of development, and they put more development in with more features and then re-charge for it - I'm dandy. If, on the other hand, Matrix (and any other company) have sold their software and it has bugs in it, and they fix those bugs - they should not be charging for that update. I couldn't care less if they've "disguised it" with additional content...that's just to ease the pain of re-paying. That's a smoke screen to tell the user "you can have your fixes for the bugs in the game - but because we've included additional content, you'll have to pay". I'm saying they have an obligation to fix the bugs free of charge - then they can coninue development and expand the product and charge for it...but the software should be bug free before moving onto another paid version.

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity
As to people paying for support through upgrades, it happens all the time, no software is maintained and updated indefinitely, the best example being windows, with Microsoft ending support for older versions such as Windows 98 already and Xp in the near future, which means you have to upgrade to a newer version, in order to get continuing support, updates and patches. While it is also quite common nowadays for software packages to be maintained through subscriptions or annual support fees, which are charged on top of the purchase price, including some games which charge monthly fees to play.

That's alright then. Being as we're used to being screwed over, another once shouldn't make any difference.

I'm not saying that Matrix should be providing Windows 7 32bit and 64bit support and updates. I'm not saying that Matrix should be providing support and free updates and free additional functinality for new technology changes. What I am saying is there is an obligation to remedy any remaining game bugs before repackaging the software and charging for it. That way the people who have the games have a working game...if they then want a new version because there's an additional feature they would like, then they pay. If they want the new version because they've upgraded to Windows 7 - fine. There's a MASSIVE difference between wanting continued support for a working product (that equals needing to pay now and again) and wanting a working product with working features as you would expect in a detailed naval simulation.

Battlefront done it with Combat Mission Afrika Corps and their other older titles I think for versions to run on newer systems - charging $5 for a patch to get those games to work. People didn't like that. If the game(s) were stable and funtional and bug free prior to that patch, and the patch was purely to update the game to work on a new OS - fine. Charge away. Paradox did it with Semper Fi - WRONG. Semper Fi was released with additional features, but with bug fixes to the base game - some thing that they should've fixed free of charge - they had an obligation to give people a working base game before charging again.

Look....if Matrix or anyone else on here who is playing the new version could say that any and all bugs that remained in ANW and HCE were squashed prior to releasing this version - then I have no axe to grind. But if there were existing bugs in the original two products and a charge is being made to fix those with a cover story of extra development and functionality being added, then that practice is unnacceptable. No company should be developing new functionality for a product until their bugs are fixed...unfortunately all that I learned about Software Engineering and the ethics of software development have NEVER appeared in the real world...just because it happens though, doesn't make it right OR acceptable.

I'm finished in here now so argue the whys and wherefors between yourselves. I just wanted to make a point that there's a distinction to be made (which seemed to have been lost since I finished my Software Engineering course) between supporting a working bug free product with paid for updates, and paying for updates that fix bugs.

[jomni]

Food for thought, software seldom reaches a stage where it's bug free these days because of complexity and several system configuration... There will always be cases that will break it.

But if the game is totally unplayable then it cannot be forgiven. I believe ANW was like this before but I have no experience with it. Now I'm playing some ANW but I still don't know what to make of it (If it's stable or not).

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: jomni

But if the game is totally unplayable then it cannot be forgiven. I believe ANW was like this before but I have no experience with it. Now I'm playing some ANW but I still don't know what to make of it (If it's stable or not).

Actually, on release it was both playable and stable as I recall. With Harpoon you really need to consider the nature of the hardcore player base which my forum lurking at the time and since suggested to be a mix of experts and people who think they are experts on the subject matter. Unfortunately, as a total naval amateur I was frequently unable to identity who was which. BUT, and more to the point, of the vast numbers of 'bugs' and 'errors' listed by assorted people (which may all have been perfectly legitimate as far as I know) the vast majority (probably 'all' after a couple of patches) passed completely under my amateur radar as I just didn't notice them during play. Nothing has changed much since, probably; I've spent far more time with HCE since it's release as I simply find it the more enjoyable of the two.

[Nebogipfel]

To be fair. ANW isn´t totally unplayable. I spended many many hours this year playing ANW.

But for example the only way ANW worked on my system without getting ctds, was turning VCR off. (This is a replay feature.)
I love watching replays of my battles. This is a good example for many bugs. You can play the game, if you can live with work-around solutions.
(This is just an example, I don´t want to start a whole bug discussion)

On the other hand, you won´t recognize some bugs, if you aren´t a naval warfare pro.

The point is, that it is hard to beliefe, that things not changed in years will be solved with one patch (3.10).

But you are right Eric, it doesn´t make any sense to discuss this, before testing the 3.10 version.

[U2]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


Tell that to HPS Simulations...we get free expansion packs, and the even Smolensk '41(came out in 1999!) was updated to modern Panzer Campaigns status. I never paid anything extra.

I think you need you rethink here V22. HPS uses the same 1999 engine to make "new" games over and over again. With each release there are some tweaks to the engine (not major stuff, really) and this can be retrofitted to every HPS game using the same engine. It's not that hard or expensive for them. They get their money supporting the series with each new game released since "all" they have to do is to research an OOB/Map and then the ai. Hardly major programing/support, right?

It's a smart and cheap business model I wish SSG had picked up long ago. Now it might be too late.

This is not HPS bashing since I'm a huge fan of their Panzer/Modern campaigns and PBEM them on a regular basis.