Timing pass not working properly
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dreamtheatervt
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Timing pass not working properly
I want my QB to throw a quick WR screen, so I have it set as a timing pass that's "aim point" is half a yard behind the LOS, on a line that is almost parallel to the LOS. When I go to practice the play (with or without a defense), the QB throws it 25 yards down field. I've had similar problems when trying to make other timing passes, basically the QB isn't throwing it anywhere near the target point.
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David Winter
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
Is this with the public BETA?
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dreamtheatervt
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David Winter
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
ORIGINAL: dreamtheatervt
Yes it is.
To which side of the QB have you placed the target? To the left or right?
Actually.. if you could post a screen shot in the public beta forum, that would be even more helpful.. thanks
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Brockleigh
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
After reading this post I went and created my own WR screen pass. It's set to the left of the formation with two receivers immediately downfield from the wideout who's targeted.
The only issue I had come up was if my back-up quarterback was in, his accuracy was erratic in hitting the receiver. Sometimes he'd miss wildly. But I did not encounter the QB throwing downfield at all.
The only issue I had come up was if my back-up quarterback was in, his accuracy was erratic in hitting the receiver. Sometimes he'd miss wildly. But I did not encounter the QB throwing downfield at all.
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dreamtheatervt
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
This is the picture of the play I want to run, but the QB throws to a point about 40 yards downfield.
The logic used is as follows: The QB is dropping back to the first logic point, faking a handoff to the the HB, and and then throwing a bullet pass. Variations that I have tried: removing the fake handoff, adding a [waitfor] command and varying the time, changing the length of the QB drop, changing the place where the QB throws the ball, even the yardline I practice the play from...and the ball always ends up being thrown 40 yards downfield.
The logic used is as follows: The QB is dropping back to the first logic point, faking a handoff to the the HB, and and then throwing a bullet pass. Variations that I have tried: removing the fake handoff, adding a [waitfor] command and varying the time, changing the length of the QB drop, changing the place where the QB throws the ball, even the yardline I practice the play from...and the ball always ends up being thrown 40 yards downfield.
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
This may not be a beta issue, so this forum may be the place for this thread.
There are a few things that need to be stated about times passes.
1. The receiver must be looking for the ball, otherwise the ball will sail.
2. Lob Timing Passes should use a lead, but Bullet Timing Passes must be on the mark. Bullet passes are harder to run, and the ball will sail down the field if missed.
3. If the timing pass is a mid or deep pass, then the quarterback needs some wait time to coordinate the throw.
4. If the receiver is held up in his route, the ball may be off the mark and sail down the field.
I just went into the PDS and created a timed mid pass to the tight end from the shotgun. I think I'll keep that play in the playbook, as it works fine.
There are a few things that need to be stated about times passes.
1. The receiver must be looking for the ball, otherwise the ball will sail.
2. Lob Timing Passes should use a lead, but Bullet Timing Passes must be on the mark. Bullet passes are harder to run, and the ball will sail down the field if missed.
3. If the timing pass is a mid or deep pass, then the quarterback needs some wait time to coordinate the throw.
4. If the receiver is held up in his route, the ball may be off the mark and sail down the field.
I just went into the PDS and created a timed mid pass to the tight end from the shotgun. I think I'll keep that play in the playbook, as it works fine.
RE: Timing pass not working properly
I just went back in and changed the play to go to the split end with a bullet timed pass.
It worked about half of the time, but that is likely because of the quarterback stats. I don't see having the ball thrown behind the LOS as a problem, and that was the premise I was testing.
It worked about half of the time, but that is likely because of the quarterback stats. I don't see having the ball thrown behind the LOS as a problem, and that was the premise I was testing.
RE: Timing pass not working properly
Dream, you have three linemen that could be flagged for an illegal man downfield penalty on that screen.
In American rules, linemen cannot be more than one yard downfield from the line of scrimmage before the pass is thrown. Your blocking scheme has linemen at one yard or deeper, and if they are firing out, they will almost certainly be in violation of the rule.
Just to ask, why are you using a bullet pass on a 7 yard screen? That receiver is going to be angry that you broke his wrists. [;)]
In American rules, linemen cannot be more than one yard downfield from the line of scrimmage before the pass is thrown. Your blocking scheme has linemen at one yard or deeper, and if they are firing out, they will almost certainly be in violation of the rule.
Just to ask, why are you using a bullet pass on a 7 yard screen? That receiver is going to be angry that you broke his wrists. [;)]
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Brockleigh
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
Mauraders,
The rule may need clarification, as the pass thrown is behind the line of scrimmage. I'm not 100% positive, but if the pass does not cross the LOS, an Inelligible Man Downfield penalty would not apply.
The play I created is very similar to dreamthearevt's, only with the forward motion allowed in the Canadian game, I have two slotbacks providing the blocking. I do have the LG and LT firing out to block though. I'll post a screencap of mine later.
The rule may need clarification, as the pass thrown is behind the line of scrimmage. I'm not 100% positive, but if the pass does not cross the LOS, an Inelligible Man Downfield penalty would not apply.
The play I created is very similar to dreamthearevt's, only with the forward motion allowed in the Canadian game, I have two slotbacks providing the blocking. I do have the LG and LT firing out to block though. I'll post a screencap of mine later.
It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all outta gum.
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dreamtheatervt
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
In "American" rules, the rules reguarding lineman are different at the high school, college, and professional levels. Thats why the lineman move parallel to the LOS before moving forward, when the pass is released the linemen are still behind the LOS in keeping with the professional rules.
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Great White
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
[font="courier new"]Final Clarification need:
[/font]
http://nfl.com/news/rulesdigest.html See rule result in 5-yard pentality #26 and Forward Pass #5 it do not offer a measurement that the OLman must be over the LOS, because is by the smallest possible measurement.
It is called "Ineligible player downfield" and happens during passing down. To be more precise no OLman can pass (by the smallest measurement) the LOS, before the ball is passed forward, from The QB's position. Before backward passes, from The QB's position, OLman can go as far as they like in any direction. However, if a backward passes, from The QB's position, OLman can go as far as they like in any direction, then the player who catch the backward pass passes the ball forward, then those OLmen who passed the LOS are "Ineligible players downfield."
[font="courier new"][/font] [font="courier new"]
http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2006/2006_football_rules.pdf
[font="courier new"]See Article 10, of Rule 7/Snapping and Passing The Ball[/font]
[font="courier new"]Marauders[/font][font="courier new"] is partly* right, with one-yard, but only when stupid NCAA Rules. *-read to find out why[/font]
[/font]
[font="courier new"]http://www.nfhs.org/web/2006/09/2006_football_rules_interpretations.aspx[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]Same; see written Page 52/53, *7.5.10 SITUATION A: [/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]Extra information about USAn FB Game, no player can throw more than 2-Forward Passes. Just make sure, in case you did not know.[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[/font]
http://nfl.com/news/rulesdigest.html See rule result in 5-yard pentality #26 and Forward Pass #5 it do not offer a measurement that the OLman must be over the LOS, because is by the smallest possible measurement.
It is called "Ineligible player downfield" and happens during passing down. To be more precise no OLman can pass (by the smallest measurement) the LOS, before the ball is passed forward, from The QB's position. Before backward passes, from The QB's position, OLman can go as far as they like in any direction. However, if a backward passes, from The QB's position, OLman can go as far as they like in any direction, then the player who catch the backward pass passes the ball forward, then those OLmen who passed the LOS are "Ineligible players downfield."
[font="courier new"][/font] [font="courier new"]
http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2006/2006_football_rules.pdf
[font="courier new"]See Article 10, of Rule 7/Snapping and Passing The Ball[/font]
[font="courier new"]Marauders[/font][font="courier new"] is partly* right, with one-yard, but only when stupid NCAA Rules. *-read to find out why[/font]
[/font]
[font="courier new"]http://www.nfhs.org/web/2006/09/2006_football_rules_interpretations.aspx[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]Same; see written Page 52/53, *7.5.10 SITUATION A: [/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]Extra information about USAn FB Game, no player can throw more than 2-Forward Passes. Just make sure, in case you did not know.[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
Thank you. Not racist/favorite animal. Hate Madden/NCAA/Industry is behind. Past-coach/player/sports radio/referee, now-private: teacher/coach/owner-Great White's Sports Association-FootBall/Rugby/Lacrosse, planned-late ‘2010. Student/industry person? PM
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Great White
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
[font="courier new"]dreamtheatervt[/font][font="courier new"],[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"] Just to make sure everyone understands, OLmen can move forward (still behind LOS) during a play that will have a Forward pass (at any time) then move backwards (before the last of any type of pass) or backwards, at any time.[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"] Just to make sure everyone understands, OLmen can move forward (still behind LOS) during a play that will have a Forward pass (at any time) then move backwards (before the last of any type of pass) or backwards, at any time.[/font]
Thank you. Not racist/favorite animal. Hate Madden/NCAA/Industry is behind. Past-coach/player/sports radio/referee, now-private: teacher/coach/owner-Great White's Sports Association-FootBall/Rugby/Lacrosse, planned-late ‘2010. Student/industry person? PM
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dreamtheatervt
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
I found the smoking gun...notice how the pass target is present in the large window, but not in the thumbnail? For some reason, there was another target 40 yards downfield...when I drug that one down, the first one left and the target showed up in the thumbnail as well. As soon as it showed up in the thumbnail (sorry I don't have a pic now, I'm at work), my QB started throwing the ball in the general area of the target.
I like how the ball goes near the target, and that the further the target is from the QB the less accurate he gets (unlike FBPro where they always had pinpoint accuracy on all timed bombs), but I think the QB is too erratic at this point. I'd like to see the QBs increase their precision and accuracy just a little, because even a HS QB isn't going to throw a bubble screen of the mark by two yards (which happened).
I like how the ball goes near the target, and that the further the target is from the QB the less accurate he gets (unlike FBPro where they always had pinpoint accuracy on all timed bombs), but I think the QB is too erratic at this point. I'd like to see the QBs increase their precision and accuracy just a little, because even a HS QB isn't going to throw a bubble screen of the mark by two yards (which happened).
RE: Timing pass not working properly
Dream, that makes sense. I am glad that was cleared up.
Brockleigh, in the NFL at least, a pass is determined by the position of the passer and the direction of the ball and not the line of scrimmage.
GW, in the NFL, the full name of the rule is Ineligible player downfield during passing down.
Here is how the rule is explained by former NFL referee Jerry Markbreit:
[blockquote]
Q: What does illegal man downfield mean?
JM: There is a foul for a man illegally downfield on both punt plays and pass plays. On pass plays, only eligible receivers may advance beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass is thrown. When an ineligible lineman goes more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage prior to the pass, he has committed a foul, which carries a 5-yard penalty from the previous line of scrimmage. On punt plays, only the widest positioned player of the kicking team is allowed to advance beyond the line of scrimmage prior to the ball being kicked. All other players are given the same one-yard cushion before a foul is called.
Q: If no defensive player lines up opposite the left offensive guard and the left offensive tackle, do those lineman still have to wait for the quarterback to throw a forward pass before they can start down field? -- Silvia, North Highlands, Calif.
JM: It is a foul when an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, prior to a legal forward pass, advances beyond his line of scrimmage after losing contact with an opponent at the line of scrimmage.
This rule means that the offensive players are restricted from going downfield before the ball is actually thrown, whether or not there is a defensive player in their vicinity at the snap. If an ineligible legally blocks an opponent at the line of scrimmage and drives him downfield and loses the block, he must remain stationary in order to avoid a penalty for ineligible offensive player downfield. Remember the offensive ineligibles are restricted from the time the ball is snapped until it is thrown from advancing downfield. The defense is restricted from any contact with eligible receivers beyond the five-yard zone until the ball is touched by either team.
[/blockquote]
Note that the rule is "across the line of scrimmage", but the NFL allows a one yard buffer. In youth football, a drive block can only be sustained for two yards prior to the pass being thrown; in the NFL, the contact rule applies.
An illegal touching penalty also results when a forward pass is first touched by an eligible receiver who has gone out of bounds and returned to the field of play, and an ineligible player penalty is called when a pass is caught by a linemen who is not declared and positioned as an eligible receiver.
There is no backwards pass in the NFL. If the ball is thrown behind the quarterback, it is a lateral and a live ball no matter what motion the quarterback uses. A play is considered a forward pass if the ball is thrown ahead of the player making the throw even if the ball does not cross the line of scrimmage.
Brockleigh, in the NFL at least, a pass is determined by the position of the passer and the direction of the ball and not the line of scrimmage.
GW, in the NFL, the full name of the rule is Ineligible player downfield during passing down.
Here is how the rule is explained by former NFL referee Jerry Markbreit:
[blockquote]
Q: What does illegal man downfield mean?
JM: There is a foul for a man illegally downfield on both punt plays and pass plays. On pass plays, only eligible receivers may advance beyond the line of scrimmage before the pass is thrown. When an ineligible lineman goes more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage prior to the pass, he has committed a foul, which carries a 5-yard penalty from the previous line of scrimmage. On punt plays, only the widest positioned player of the kicking team is allowed to advance beyond the line of scrimmage prior to the ball being kicked. All other players are given the same one-yard cushion before a foul is called.
Q: If no defensive player lines up opposite the left offensive guard and the left offensive tackle, do those lineman still have to wait for the quarterback to throw a forward pass before they can start down field? -- Silvia, North Highlands, Calif.
JM: It is a foul when an ineligible offensive player, including a T-formation quarterback, prior to a legal forward pass, advances beyond his line of scrimmage after losing contact with an opponent at the line of scrimmage.
This rule means that the offensive players are restricted from going downfield before the ball is actually thrown, whether or not there is a defensive player in their vicinity at the snap. If an ineligible legally blocks an opponent at the line of scrimmage and drives him downfield and loses the block, he must remain stationary in order to avoid a penalty for ineligible offensive player downfield. Remember the offensive ineligibles are restricted from the time the ball is snapped until it is thrown from advancing downfield. The defense is restricted from any contact with eligible receivers beyond the five-yard zone until the ball is touched by either team.
[/blockquote]
Note that the rule is "across the line of scrimmage", but the NFL allows a one yard buffer. In youth football, a drive block can only be sustained for two yards prior to the pass being thrown; in the NFL, the contact rule applies.
An illegal touching penalty also results when a forward pass is first touched by an eligible receiver who has gone out of bounds and returned to the field of play, and an ineligible player penalty is called when a pass is caught by a linemen who is not declared and positioned as an eligible receiver.
There is no backwards pass in the NFL. If the ball is thrown behind the quarterback, it is a lateral and a live ball no matter what motion the quarterback uses. A play is considered a forward pass if the ball is thrown ahead of the player making the throw even if the ball does not cross the line of scrimmage.
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Great White
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
[font="courier new"]Marauders[/font][font="courier new"],[/font]
[font="courier new"][font=arial]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"] Thanks for that clarification. I guess it is easier on the referees to have that yard. While I do not like it (as a defensive mind player/coach) question fairness, I guess it helps to make the game run better and I guess I will accept it. Interestly, when I head refereed Flag FootBall it was a flag, no matter what measurement; of course flag football is slower and has less rules.[/font]
[font="courier new"]Like my previous post stated, he can only be talking about The NFL's sponsor youth leagues and/or PWFBL and other Youth FB Leagues.[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]The backwards or Laterial thing is crasy needling word use, because originally backwards passes behind The LOS was a fumble any ways. Probably done for the same reason as the one-yard.[/font]
[font="courier new"][font=arial]
[/font] since we are posting about a play involving a pass; I skipped that part of the title which makes no difference to our post exchanges. [font=arial]during passing down
[/font] can happen on any down and yardage combination; the rule is just appliable when a pass is happening. Like we all know, not trying to preach. [/font]Ineligible player downfield
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"] Thanks for that clarification. I guess it is easier on the referees to have that yard. While I do not like it (as a defensive mind player/coach) question fairness, I guess it helps to make the game run better and I guess I will accept it. Interestly, when I head refereed Flag FootBall it was a flag, no matter what measurement; of course flag football is slower and has less rules.[/font]
Note that the rule is "across the line of scrimmage", but the NFL allows a one yard buffer. In youth football, a drive block can only be sustained for two yards prior to the pass being thrown; in the NFL, the contact rule applies.
[font="courier new"]Like my previous post stated, he can only be talking about The NFL's sponsor youth leagues and/or PWFBL and other Youth FB Leagues.[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]The backwards or Laterial thing is crasy needling word use, because originally backwards passes behind The LOS was a fumble any ways. Probably done for the same reason as the one-yard.[/font]
Thank you. Not racist/favorite animal. Hate Madden/NCAA/Industry is behind. Past-coach/player/sports radio/referee, now-private: teacher/coach/owner-Great White's Sports Association-FootBall/Rugby/Lacrosse, planned-late ‘2010. Student/industry person? PM
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Great White
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
[/font][font="courier new"]Marauders[/font][font="courier new"] is partly* right, with one-yard, but only when stupid NCAA Rules. *-read to find out why
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]I need to make known now that [font="courier new"]Marauders[/font] has proven he is right and that The NCAA rules are only different than High School rules, I was wrong.[/font]
Thank you. Not racist/favorite animal. Hate Madden/NCAA/Industry is behind. Past-coach/player/sports radio/referee, now-private: teacher/coach/owner-Great White's Sports Association-FootBall/Rugby/Lacrosse, planned-late ‘2010. Student/industry person? PM
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Great White
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RE: Timing pass not working properly
[font="courier new"]Marauders[/font][font="courier new"],[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"] Since we now all understand The NFL, NCAA and High Schools' Ineligible player downfield rules I have two-questions relating right back to MF, for you.[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]1. Does MF reflect this one-yard?[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]2. What is the Canadian rule on it?[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"] Since we now all understand The NFL, NCAA and High Schools' Ineligible player downfield rules I have two-questions relating right back to MF, for you.[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]1. Does MF reflect this one-yard?[/font]
[font="courier new"][/font]
[font="courier new"]2. What is the Canadian rule on it?[/font]
Thank you. Not racist/favorite animal. Hate Madden/NCAA/Industry is behind. Past-coach/player/sports radio/referee, now-private: teacher/coach/owner-Great White's Sports Association-FootBall/Rugby/Lacrosse, planned-late ‘2010. Student/industry person? PM
RE: Timing pass not working properly
1. I don't believe the computer checks plays for this. As the rule varies from league to league even in one style of play, it would be really hard to police. This is the kind of thing that commissioners usually check in playbooks from time to time. For people playing against the CPU, it is something that should be known and not cheated on.
2. It is a similar rule in the CFL.
Brockleigh is correct on this rule as it applies to the CFL for balls caught behind the line of scrimmage.
Ineligible Receivers[font=arial] (Rule 6, section 4, Article 5). Changed in the CFL in 2004[/font][font=arial]
[blockquote]
If a forward pass is caught behind or on the line of scrimmage, ineligible players may legal block downfield before the pass is caught.[/blockquote][/font]
2. It is a similar rule in the CFL.
Brockleigh is correct on this rule as it applies to the CFL for balls caught behind the line of scrimmage.
Ineligible Receivers[font=arial] (Rule 6, section 4, Article 5). Changed in the CFL in 2004[/font][font=arial]
[blockquote]
If a forward pass is caught behind or on the line of scrimmage, ineligible players may legal block downfield before the pass is caught.[/blockquote][/font]
RE: Timing pass not working properly
Here is a note on this rule from, "ask the official".
My question has to do with the penalty “illegal receiver downfield”. Is there a 5 yard buffer past the line of scrimmage that the linemen can operate in without the penalty being called? I.e. Can a Lineman be a couple yards past the line of scrimmage while the qb is throwing the football?
[blockquote]
A minor point here is that the penalty is for "ineligible receiver downfield." There is no such thing as an "illegal receiver" although many announcers make the same mistake.
Rule 8-2-2, note 1 states that: "The guideline for officials to use for an ineligible player to be illegally downfield is that the offending player must be more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage prior to the pass." This restriction ends when the ball leaves the passer's hand. The following rule 8-2-3 indicates that a blocker may block an opponent at the line of scrimmage and drive him downfield where, if he loses the block, he must remain stationary. Although no distance requirement is stipulated in this second rule, it is typically interpreted to be no more than a yard or two beyond the line of scrimmage. So to answer your question, there is a bit of a buffer (1-2 yards at most) but nowhere near the 5 yards that you mentioned.
It may be of interest to you to know that the NCAA rule book stipulates no more than 3 yards for the same situation. So if you are watching a college game, you may see a little more leeway than you see in the NFL. [/blockquote]
My question has to do with the penalty “illegal receiver downfield”. Is there a 5 yard buffer past the line of scrimmage that the linemen can operate in without the penalty being called? I.e. Can a Lineman be a couple yards past the line of scrimmage while the qb is throwing the football?
[blockquote]
A minor point here is that the penalty is for "ineligible receiver downfield." There is no such thing as an "illegal receiver" although many announcers make the same mistake.
Rule 8-2-2, note 1 states that: "The guideline for officials to use for an ineligible player to be illegally downfield is that the offending player must be more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage prior to the pass." This restriction ends when the ball leaves the passer's hand. The following rule 8-2-3 indicates that a blocker may block an opponent at the line of scrimmage and drive him downfield where, if he loses the block, he must remain stationary. Although no distance requirement is stipulated in this second rule, it is typically interpreted to be no more than a yard or two beyond the line of scrimmage. So to answer your question, there is a bit of a buffer (1-2 yards at most) but nowhere near the 5 yards that you mentioned.
It may be of interest to you to know that the NCAA rule book stipulates no more than 3 yards for the same situation. So if you are watching a college game, you may see a little more leeway than you see in the NFL. [/blockquote]