I have read a lot of opinions saying that winning as Germany is too hard or nearly impossible. I am starting to think that those who say this give up when the empire begins to collapse and assume a loss.
In three attempts as the Germans, I have one marginal victory and two decisive. These are all by following a more or less historical approach except for not throwing away my army actually trying to conquer Russia. Once things go bad in the East, conserve your forces and fall back in good order. Do not assault Moscow, ever.
I am starting to wonder how the Germans can lose without making a big mistake somewhere.
IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
Moderators: Joel Billings, JanSorensen
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
I doff my hat to you as I continue to get clobbered every game I play. Just about to start another game.......
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
Are you playing out to the bitter end?
If you hold even just west Germany at the end of the game and Japan has not surrendered, I think the worst you can do is a draw unless you did not repair the German factories when they get bombed. Holding West Germany plus Austria and Checkoslovakia is pretty easy. Holding Berlin is not so easy, the Russians go for it pretty hard the last couple of turns.
You can usually even retake Italy since the WA AI seems to like moving their entire Italian force into France to push for west Germany.
I'll agree that winning by conquering Russia is a real achievement. I have not come even close to pulling that off. Just holding until the end of '46 is pretty easy if you avoid a massive defeat that costs you most of your army.
Maybe the difference is that I am too conservative and don't take the big gamble that leads to my downfall. I suppose my approach is not that much fun after the first time or two.
One thing that I think helps is to keep at least one long range bomber in western France along with some shorter range ones. These can steadily bleed the WA transports much better than subs can. I also but at least a heavy fleet and often a heavy plus a light in Norway. From there, it is easy to destroy any transports that are trying to ship lend lease to Russia.
You really can't destroy the American fleet, but every transport they are rebuilding is one less other thing that they build. Plus, if they can't build up the really huge fleet, they can't lauch a big enough invasion to push you out of France by the Historical route. This leaves them having to clear Africa and come through the south. You should be able to stall effectively by commiting a few troops to Africa.
In my latest game, it is Spring '44 and the WA still only holds the one province in NW Africa. They have not even tried to push east becasue the force I have facing them is almost as big as theirs. They caved completely in the Mid East. Which reminds me, if you take Egypt be sure to get a bomber there too. It can kill one transport a turn in the Persian Gulf while one of the Italian Fleets basedin Cairo can destroy one a trun in the Red Sea.
The AI always pulls its combat fleets back safely out of air range but leaves a few naked tranports.
This steady attrition against the WA transports probably buys Japan a lot of time also. My Japanese ally never seems to do extremely well, but he also never completely collapses.
Now, against human opponents, I think Germany might be in a real tough position. If you stall the human on one front he will creatively look for a weak spot instead of accepting the stalemate.
If you hold even just west Germany at the end of the game and Japan has not surrendered, I think the worst you can do is a draw unless you did not repair the German factories when they get bombed. Holding West Germany plus Austria and Checkoslovakia is pretty easy. Holding Berlin is not so easy, the Russians go for it pretty hard the last couple of turns.
You can usually even retake Italy since the WA AI seems to like moving their entire Italian force into France to push for west Germany.
I'll agree that winning by conquering Russia is a real achievement. I have not come even close to pulling that off. Just holding until the end of '46 is pretty easy if you avoid a massive defeat that costs you most of your army.
Maybe the difference is that I am too conservative and don't take the big gamble that leads to my downfall. I suppose my approach is not that much fun after the first time or two.
One thing that I think helps is to keep at least one long range bomber in western France along with some shorter range ones. These can steadily bleed the WA transports much better than subs can. I also but at least a heavy fleet and often a heavy plus a light in Norway. From there, it is easy to destroy any transports that are trying to ship lend lease to Russia.
You really can't destroy the American fleet, but every transport they are rebuilding is one less other thing that they build. Plus, if they can't build up the really huge fleet, they can't lauch a big enough invasion to push you out of France by the Historical route. This leaves them having to clear Africa and come through the south. You should be able to stall effectively by commiting a few troops to Africa.
In my latest game, it is Spring '44 and the WA still only holds the one province in NW Africa. They have not even tried to push east becasue the force I have facing them is almost as big as theirs. They caved completely in the Mid East. Which reminds me, if you take Egypt be sure to get a bomber there too. It can kill one transport a turn in the Persian Gulf while one of the Italian Fleets basedin Cairo can destroy one a trun in the Red Sea.
The AI always pulls its combat fleets back safely out of air range but leaves a few naked tranports.
This steady attrition against the WA transports probably buys Japan a lot of time also. My Japanese ally never seems to do extremely well, but he also never completely collapses.
Now, against human opponents, I think Germany might be in a real tough position. If you stall the human on one front he will creatively look for a weak spot instead of accepting the stalemate.
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
eventually I suppose you have to play a human opponent in just about every game after you've found "the trick" to beating the AI. I'm not one to play conservatively, therefore I tend to lose a lot. however I have won as germany by lasting quite awhile. I have kept my russian border pretty close to where it started, but I always seem to lose italy.
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
ORIGINAL: Dalwin
Are you playing out to the bitter end?
Regretfully, the bitter end comes quickly. I just don't have the knack of correctly attacking Russia and driving them back far enough before they are able to build up. The manual says you need to take Leningrad on the first turn wich I have tried to do. My best attack was with a 48% chance of success and needless to say it failed. Thus, Finland stays frozen and my campaign in the east is doomed to a quick end. I find myself without an adequate cushion in the East which means I have to stretch myself thin in the west. I find the AI to be very good in exploiting this weakness which is actually making the game a blast to play.
I usually pull my bombers east and leave the west defended by flack, artillery and fighters. I shall have to give your idea a shot.
I've noticed the Japanese seem to do pretty well in the Pacific, certainly better than I could do at the moment.
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
Double post, sorry.....
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
Yeah, to save Italy you need to either commit heavily to both ends of the African front or take Gibralter and Egypt. Either of these approaches takes a lot away from the Russian front. This works, but only if you are willing to go into Russia with the understandign that you cannot "go for it" and actually try to conquer them.
I suppose it is time for me to either find human opponents or find a "gutsier" way to win as the Germans.
I suppose it is time for me to either find human opponents or find a "gutsier" way to win as the Germans.
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
ORIGINAL: Bossy573
ORIGINAL: Dalwin
Are you playing out to the bitter end?
Regretfully, the bitter end comes quickly. I just don't have the knack of correctly attacking Russia and driving them back far enough before they are able to build up. The manual says you need to take Leningrad on the first turn wich I have tried to do. My best attack was with a 48% chance of success and needless to say it failed. Thus, Finland stays frozen and my campaign in the east is doomed to a quick end. I find myself without an adequate cushion in the East which means I have to stretch myself thin in the west. I find the AI to be very good in exploiting this weakness which is actually making the game a blast to play.
I usually pull my bombers east and leave the west defended by flack, artillery and fighters. I shall have to give your idea a shot.
I've noticed the Japanese seem to do pretty well in the Pacific, certainly better than I could do at the moment.
The manual does say to take Leningrad on turn one, but I never do this. I find that if I Threaten to push NE between Leningrad and Moscow, the Russian pull out of Leningrad and let me have it for free on either turn 2 or 3. This has the disadvantage of letting the Russian fleet escape into the baltic, but one sortie by my fleet and a few planes takes care of that.
I have had good luck with not attacking directly into Eastern Poland. By pushing both to the north and south of Eastern Poland with tanks, you can Encircle the half dozen units there and destroy them rather than letting them retreat. Using your airborn unit and aircraft is important to make this encirclement easier.
I also find that if I leave a very thin line in the two provinces in front of Moscow, the Russians cannot resist pushing here. They will take a second province to the west and leave a number of tank units there that can be encircled and destroyed. This leaves you once again with a very thin line in front of Moscow so that the cycle is repeated.
Not only does this cost the Russians more than it costs you, it stablizes the center of the front for a long time. If I have a problem it always ends up being in the north. If the Russians decide that they really want to retake Karelia, Leningrad, and Finland; it is pretty hard to stop them for long. I try to keep a large force in Leningrad even when it is not on the front line to avoid complete collapse in the north.
The south ends up being the meatgrinder where I lose most of my units. However, as long as I keep coming up with units to throw into the grinder, I can usually still be holding Odessa in '44. The Russains can do annoying things with Bombers based east of the Black sea. Keeping planes based in Rumania is pretty much a must.
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
ORIGINAL: Dalwin
The manual does say to take Leningrad on turn one, but I never do this. I find that if I Threaten to push NE between Leningrad and Moscow, the Russian pull out of Leningrad and let me have it for free on either turn 2 or 3. This has the disadvantage of letting the Russian fleet escape into the baltic, but one sortie by my fleet and a few planes takes care of that.
I have had good luck with not attacking directly into Eastern Poland. By pushing both to the north and south of Eastern Poland with tanks, you can Encircle the half dozen units there and destroy them rather than letting them retreat. Using your airborn unit and aircraft is important to make this encirclement easier.
I also find that if I leave a very thin line in the two provinces in front of Moscow, the Russians cannot resist pushing here. They will take a second province to the west and leave a number of tank units there that can be encircled and destroyed. This leaves you once again with a very thin line in front of Moscow so that the cycle is repeated.
Not only does this cost the Russians more than it costs you, it stablizes the center of the front for a long time. If I have a problem it always ends up being in the north. If the Russians decide that they really want to retake Karelia, Leningrad, and Finland; it is pretty hard to stop them for long. I try to keep a large force in Leningrad even when it is not on the front line to avoid complete collapse in the north.
The south ends up being the meatgrinder where I lose most of my units. However, as long as I keep coming up with units to throw into the grinder, I can usually still be holding Odessa in '44. The Russains can do annoying things with Bombers based east of the Black sea. Keeping planes based in Rumania is pretty much a must.
Directive 21: CASE BARBAROSSA for my next game of GGWAW. I'll let you know how it turns out!
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Willy Liao
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:22 pm
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
I was able to win an auto victory in my second game as Germany vs Normal AI with simple supply. (The first game was an awful disaster--invaded england just as the soviets declared war. Insufficient forces on either Britain or Eastern front to do anything.)
Turns out the human might have an unfair advantage over computer given that that you can turn auto victory on/off with a flick of a switch. In my second game, I seized Spain & gibraltar early. Then I seized Malta, and swarmed North Africa with enough air & land units to grab Egypt. Once the Mediterrean was closed I stuffed some fleets at both Gibraltar & Egypt, including subs to repeatedly trash individual transports. I kept transports on station throughout the med to get Vichy French trade, though I learned to my sorrow they were vulnerable to air attack without escorting fleets. After some time, the WA quit sending fleets to Egypt/eastern africa.
Then I dared venture two transports out, amphib landed one infantry into Italian East Africa & walked the breadth of the continent taking resources away from the WA. In the meantime, I built up for a 1942 invasion of Russia. The Soviets can't resist invading Persia when this happens, but because I control the Mideast I counter attacked to grab Persia. I now had a small force just south of the Caucasus with 6 rich resources, plus decent forces in Poland/Prussia. I piled half my Panzers into Prussia with some infantry & artillery, and was able to seize Leningrad by not using all the panzers to attack the Baltic States, letting them exploit their 2 movement points. This was of course assisted with a heavy fleet unit's bombardment & about 4-5 tactical & heavy bombers.
After that we fought back & forth, avoiding Moscow--I'd grab weakly defended areas up North or in the south with panzers, then I'd either reinforce them or retreat the very same turn if it looked like I couldn't get enough units their by SR to defend without heavy losses. Another thing I did was to walk a single infantry from Northern Persia into western kazakhstan and walk around cutting rail lines from the Eastern Soviet provinces. I'd take & lose some provinces, always trying to defeat him in detail. The AI sometimes sends out small forces to grab undefended provinces, which can then be killed without much risk.
I finally had some more factories come online and I repaired enough resource centers in Africa & Russia to get an auto victory in Summer 1943 when combined with Japanese AI factories that came online. Operation Torch had occurred by this time with about 20 units in former Vichy French North Africa, but I SR'd just enough land units to Tripoli to check his offensive. It turns out I didn't even need the central/south africa resources (though at that time I could just pop out one transport into the Red Sea to connect them to my network). I had enough resources + factories from Persia, Iraq, Caucasus & Kiev plus my other holdings to win. Even if the WA had gone all the way to the Mideast & seized gibraltar & retaken Africa I could hide the Rumanian transport in port until I needed those 8 caucasus & persian resources, and pop him out on the turn of victory to provide the transport net needed to get them. Don't think this strategy would work as well against a human player...
I actually originally played the game to summer 1944 because I didn't understand how production points were counted for auto victory (I later went back to my save games to realize I could win a year early). In this later version of the game, I had double panzer pincers from N & S meeting at Kazan, some distance behind Moscow, which I rail repaired & SR reinforced. This screws with his reinforcement & let me partition his tanks which are very dangerous in the western pocket, because they can move 2 points. He only had about 3 tanks in the western pocket, and 2 in the area to the east of Kazan, neither of which was strong enough to break through by itself & preventing a double-region exploitation. I still had to do my trick of grab a region, and withdraw in the same turn, but it didn't matter--if you spend a few supply points to grab a factory & resources, you'll cost him supply to repair it, plus I believe the units in production in that region are all scrapped. I actually got a panzer unit into the Urals & looted his factories & mines, heh heh. I also walked one infantry into western kazakhstan & went around cutting rails & resources. So much fun...
Turns out the human might have an unfair advantage over computer given that that you can turn auto victory on/off with a flick of a switch. In my second game, I seized Spain & gibraltar early. Then I seized Malta, and swarmed North Africa with enough air & land units to grab Egypt. Once the Mediterrean was closed I stuffed some fleets at both Gibraltar & Egypt, including subs to repeatedly trash individual transports. I kept transports on station throughout the med to get Vichy French trade, though I learned to my sorrow they were vulnerable to air attack without escorting fleets. After some time, the WA quit sending fleets to Egypt/eastern africa.
Then I dared venture two transports out, amphib landed one infantry into Italian East Africa & walked the breadth of the continent taking resources away from the WA. In the meantime, I built up for a 1942 invasion of Russia. The Soviets can't resist invading Persia when this happens, but because I control the Mideast I counter attacked to grab Persia. I now had a small force just south of the Caucasus with 6 rich resources, plus decent forces in Poland/Prussia. I piled half my Panzers into Prussia with some infantry & artillery, and was able to seize Leningrad by not using all the panzers to attack the Baltic States, letting them exploit their 2 movement points. This was of course assisted with a heavy fleet unit's bombardment & about 4-5 tactical & heavy bombers.
After that we fought back & forth, avoiding Moscow--I'd grab weakly defended areas up North or in the south with panzers, then I'd either reinforce them or retreat the very same turn if it looked like I couldn't get enough units their by SR to defend without heavy losses. Another thing I did was to walk a single infantry from Northern Persia into western kazakhstan and walk around cutting rail lines from the Eastern Soviet provinces. I'd take & lose some provinces, always trying to defeat him in detail. The AI sometimes sends out small forces to grab undefended provinces, which can then be killed without much risk.
I finally had some more factories come online and I repaired enough resource centers in Africa & Russia to get an auto victory in Summer 1943 when combined with Japanese AI factories that came online. Operation Torch had occurred by this time with about 20 units in former Vichy French North Africa, but I SR'd just enough land units to Tripoli to check his offensive. It turns out I didn't even need the central/south africa resources (though at that time I could just pop out one transport into the Red Sea to connect them to my network). I had enough resources + factories from Persia, Iraq, Caucasus & Kiev plus my other holdings to win. Even if the WA had gone all the way to the Mideast & seized gibraltar & retaken Africa I could hide the Rumanian transport in port until I needed those 8 caucasus & persian resources, and pop him out on the turn of victory to provide the transport net needed to get them. Don't think this strategy would work as well against a human player...
I actually originally played the game to summer 1944 because I didn't understand how production points were counted for auto victory (I later went back to my save games to realize I could win a year early). In this later version of the game, I had double panzer pincers from N & S meeting at Kazan, some distance behind Moscow, which I rail repaired & SR reinforced. This screws with his reinforcement & let me partition his tanks which are very dangerous in the western pocket, because they can move 2 points. He only had about 3 tanks in the western pocket, and 2 in the area to the east of Kazan, neither of which was strong enough to break through by itself & preventing a double-region exploitation. I still had to do my trick of grab a region, and withdraw in the same turn, but it didn't matter--if you spend a few supply points to grab a factory & resources, you'll cost him supply to repair it, plus I believe the units in production in that region are all scrapped. I actually got a panzer unit into the Urals & looted his factories & mines, heh heh. I also walked one infantry into western kazakhstan & went around cutting rails & resources. So much fun...
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Striker_002
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:31 am
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
Sord of mini aar...
Funny, my first game as germans (4th overall, used simple supply, normal ai and gave myself +10 supply help) was a success and probably all because I managed to take moscow early. I had taken it in spring 1942 when i committed every bit of nearby forces to capturing it, I smashed most of the Russian army and captured their main production area so it took them out for the rest of the game. Their were still in a pain in the ass untill I captured the Urals factories but after that I kept expanding eastward and even managed to help out my japenese allies by capturing sinkaing. The only draw back to this is I was lucky it happened so quick, as in fall 1942 the allies did a succesful early invasion of southern italy, and a couple turns after took france too. I eventually won an autovictory as I repaired my captured resources but the Allies had managed to liberate france (though I took southern Italy back.) lesson learnt, might be a good idea to commit more forces to the war in the west, I thought the I could get away with just leaving a skeleton force in western europe but got a bloody nose in the end. Thought I'd just share my experiences with germany. You can win if you do it right, I probably didn't even need that small bit of supply help.
Funny, my first game as germans (4th overall, used simple supply, normal ai and gave myself +10 supply help) was a success and probably all because I managed to take moscow early. I had taken it in spring 1942 when i committed every bit of nearby forces to capturing it, I smashed most of the Russian army and captured their main production area so it took them out for the rest of the game. Their were still in a pain in the ass untill I captured the Urals factories but after that I kept expanding eastward and even managed to help out my japenese allies by capturing sinkaing. The only draw back to this is I was lucky it happened so quick, as in fall 1942 the allies did a succesful early invasion of southern italy, and a couple turns after took france too. I eventually won an autovictory as I repaired my captured resources but the Allies had managed to liberate france (though I took southern Italy back.) lesson learnt, might be a good idea to commit more forces to the war in the west, I thought the I could get away with just leaving a skeleton force in western europe but got a bloody nose in the end. Thought I'd just share my experiences with germany. You can win if you do it right, I probably didn't even need that small bit of supply help.
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
I realized this....
I kept posting that Germany was too hard because I was expecting to conquer the world!
Once I realized that just pulling off a different end than the historical one was winning - I realized I haven't lost yet as Germany.....
However, I am now losing because I am trying new strategies and pushing hard to actually take and hold Moscow (that's my current goal)....
I have had one game where I pushed Russia all the way back to China/Far east but then slowly lost it - but I finished with holding Easter Poland and the surrounding area.
Conservative play definitely makes "beating" the AI easier - so I tend to try and conquer instead of just hold my own.
Great post.
I kept posting that Germany was too hard because I was expecting to conquer the world!
Once I realized that just pulling off a different end than the historical one was winning - I realized I haven't lost yet as Germany.....
However, I am now losing because I am trying new strategies and pushing hard to actually take and hold Moscow (that's my current goal)....
I have had one game where I pushed Russia all the way back to China/Far east but then slowly lost it - but I finished with holding Easter Poland and the surrounding area.
Conservative play definitely makes "beating" the AI easier - so I tend to try and conquer instead of just hold my own.
Great post.
"Frazzblut the skreedle - NOW!"
RE: IS winning as Germany against the AI too easy?
Well, in my one and only game as Germany, I got my clock cleaned by 1944 -- full surrender. But I made boatloads of mistakes. I built a half-dozen factories and then later realized I lacked the resources and manpower to run them. I researched useless stuff. I repaired regions that immediately fell the next turn. One thing I did right was to make enough supply, but that alone didn't save me from complete annhilation. When Japan fell, it was total victory for the Allies. 
