Modding the politics.

[Petiloup]

I believe that this game and the metagaming referring too is also due to a big simple thing that was forgotten in the game... Fuel & Politics.

It is quite obvious there is not much interest for the Axis to see the US coming to war early but we forget why the Japs did Pearl Harbor. At the end of 1941 they had about 6 months of fuel reserve to last if the US did kept the fuel embargo. The US did do the embargo on Japan because of China so do anyone think they will look at Japan invading Russia and stay put doing nothing? Maybe if Japan just withdraw of China first but even so who knows.

So I guess modding the ressources to show how critical fuel can be would be tricky but to be realistic there should be a mod making the US go to war earlier if Japan declares war to Russia. Would say 2 turns afterwards to let a diplomatic time to set in between. Germany and Italy would declare war on US to respect their pact with Japan.

By the way Japan did try their luck against Russia in 1939 in Mongolia and were trashed badly. There shouldn't be any reason for Russia not to be able to attack Japan anytime as they did against Finland in 39, against Poland to help their German friends, against Roumania to get Moldavia. Stalin was eager to increase his realm so why not against Japan if he feels like it?

In GGWAW you can't because Russia is part of the good guys which is wrong. If Germany and Japan can change their Global Strategy why not Russia?

My modif would be to propose to let Russia declare war to who they want but with some choices.

1/ Choose an option at the beginning of the game or during if Russia and Japan agrees on a non-aggression pact. They don't, well the Japs take the risk of Russia attacking them in 1940.

2/ Russia attack a Neutral but then their entry date of war against Germany is postponed by 1 turn or more for some countries. or another solution like a heavy cost in production for doing so.

[PyleDriver]

I agree with alot you say, thier is no way in the game to sway politics...If there was a table that creates a playing field that say, supply is spent , in tandem with certain occupations, and the amount of troops present in an area, would determan, how major and minor powers are activated...For instantance: (1) I don't think Rumania would only enter the war only if Yugoslavia is occupied. (2) Would the Soviets stand by and watch Germany overrun England with only 3 Malita units in Poland in 42. (3) Would the U.S stand by and watch Japan invade the Dutch West Indies...They might on this one, if the Japanise, spent enough, political points...I think there should be a seperation between Dutch/British teritories and American's in SE Asia. (4) Do the the Germans have to declare war on the U.S. just because Japan does...Ect..Ect...Ect

Get the drift, if there was a political table, in which this is built in, WOW!!!, then we have an outragous game.

[8D]
Jon Pyle

[Petiloup]

I should think that a lot of the players of GGWAW should know a bit about World In Flame. Those 2 games are of course light years apart in their concept but what make WIF a great game is that it is really more open. Democraties are stuck by politics while Russia enjoys more liberties and the Axis, well they don't care of anything but maybe trying to prevent the USofA to enter war to early.

That's the beauty of the game if you are way too much aggressive with the Axis then you'll get Uncle Sam whipping your butt faster.

In GGWAW there is no stick against the carrot of being aggressive but leaving Uncle Sam and Big Joe out of the game till 43. The people of the USA didn't want to go to war, true but Roosevelt was eager to find a way to enter the war. In the meantime he was helping Britain a lot by sending supplies and even 50 destroyers against a base in Bermuda. What a joke as if he cared about Bermuda.

Here is also a few facts:

14 June 1941,
U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt order all German assets frozen. The Department of States also closes all German consul and propaganda offices in the United States.

7 July 1941,
American troops join British troops in the occupation of Iceland.

26 July 1941,
U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt orders all Japanese assets frozen. He also orders the suspension of all trade with Japan and lay an embargo on oil, give rise to the attack on Pearl Harbor.

1 August 1941,
USA puts complete oil embargo on Japan.

2 August 1941,
The American agreed the Lend-Lease plan to the Soviet Union.

6 August 1941,
American and British governments warn Japan not to invade Siam (Thailand).

11 September 1941,
U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt declares a shoot-on-sight order against all German and Italian shipping.

28 September 1941,
Conference at Moskow; Stalin, Harriman (United States) and Beaverbrook (United Kingdom).The United States extended assistance to the Soviet Union through its Lend-Lease Act of March 1941.

All this quite demonstrate that Roosevelt will not have stayed put while Germany invade the world waiting for his turn to come next. With American Troops in Iceland how long would it be to have troops in UK in case of an invasion? (Speaking of invasion and knowing the German navy in WW2 it is propesterous to think Germany has even the remote capacity of invading Scotland.)

My biggest issue with GGWAW is that it opens a way for the Axis to review the Hitler strategy to find a winning one. Of course what's the point of playing a game if we need to make the same mistake than the one done in real history but it should therefore goes both way.

Why should Russia keeps this silly deployment of forces knowing Germany is getting ready for an attack. Barbarossa was not a surprise, Russian intelligence had all the needed warnings but Stalin didn't want to upset Hitler and prefer to ignore all those signs. So why do we need to stay as stupid as Stalin (in that case) if a german player can avoid Hitler mistakes?

Well there is an answer that of course if Russia can be smarter then there is not much chance for Germany to get an easy invasion and the chance of success of one will diminish accordingly but this is the problem. You can't give one a chance to do better without a risk.

So I do look at Franco Alliance as a great work done as a modif but I think there is still a few flaws to be addressed. Now I'm not almighty so it's just something I propose open to discussions. After that not sure if I'll be able to do even a partial mod but maybe we can bring some real authentic flavor to GGWAW as you can feel it in WIF.

1/ Totally agree on making Spain a German ally and think making him unfrozen if London falls is not a bad idea. Now as taking London is not that complicate we should make the US enter war against Germany if London falls. Roosevelt wouldn't let Britain go without a fight. Maybe a partial mobilization like unfreezing only the East of USA would be good enough.

2/ Iraq should be an frozen German ally also and get activated with one Militia if Germany enters Syria, Palestine or Egypt (both land zone). 1 militia inside would be plenty enough as troops.

3/ No factory for Hungary and no deduction of 1 Russia factory. It's difficult to balance a game by changed production but adding one factory for Hungary is putting Hungary on the same level than Rumania which is simply not the case. Any WW2 game will show you a lot more troops raised by Rumania than by Hungary until later in the war. Also to deduct one factory from Russia is putting aside the fact that Russia did mobilize and loose way more troops than any other countries in this war.

At the begining of Barbarossa the german had about 3,000,000 man in Russia against 4,700,000 millions Russian soldiers. In 1941 the germans did loose about 600,000 man and russia 4,000,000 man but then in April 1942 there was 4,000,000 german soldiers in Russia against 5,000,000 russians. This means you wipe out almost all the Russian troops on the map and put them back one year later. This capacity of recovery is difficult to translate in a game. At the end of the war Russia did loose 13,600,000 man against 3,500,000 germans and 295,000 Americans. Stalin wanted to win but didn't care much how and at what cost. As I say this is difficult to translate in a game but certainly not by diminishing their production. One thing would be to get militia like for China. Their value are low and they die fast but you still need to kill them. After that then you could take of one factory for play balance.

4/ Optional rule of stacking limit in Gibraltar. I understand for Infantry and even more for tanks but not for Artillery and Anti-air guns unless you want to leave Gibraltar open to air attack and an easy invasion. The germans had a awfull hard time to do the blitz so bombing Gibraltar from Italy shouldn't be a walk in the park either.

5/ Japan goes West. Well the USA did embargo all Oil trade because of China and they would let Japan invade Russia without doing anything? Would also make the US goes to war because of that but let's say 2 turns after the invasion so to reflect a diplomatic period before going to war.

6/ Pacific priority zones. This a fair idea but only speaking of amphibious assaults not for surface ships. Truk is in zone C and I wouldn't see Nimitz not bombing this place to dust if he had the chance and there was Japanese carriers there. With the right intelligence available the US will surely show the Japanese how a Pearl Harbor is done but without any infamy.

7/ Russia, well this would be the tricky part and not sure if possible but we should change Russia a bit. First would be to let Russia declare war on any minor country or Japan. Not Germany unless in 43 like initialy done. Declaring war on a minor or Japan should go with a price and it could be postponing USA entry by 1 or 2 turns for Japan or more. Russia was aggressive as proven by the Winter War against Finland, the invasion of Poland and the annexion of Moldavia. Being left alone by Hitler what would have been next for Stalin? Turkey was a prize he really wanted to grab. Secondly if Russia is not frozen we should still force her to garrison the border with Germany with a minimum of troops in each land zone. The easiest I gues would be to find a way to put partisan against russia in those zone if the garrison limit is not met. Then for the rest Russia would be free to change the way it views her defense. Germany can changes Barbarossa then Russia can change her defense. That sounds fair to me.

[PyleDriver]

Some very fine points, it reinforces what I said that there is a need for a political table...I agree that Spain should be a neutral Axis minor, and how do you deal with it? Franco offered Hitler passage to Gabralter but declined. Hind sight?...Turkey likewise should be a neutral Axis minor...This in itself (the politics) is a complicated game, but is very needed...Not giving the Soviets more of a free hand until attacked does bother me in the game also. Agian, if Stalin felt Eastern Europe was wide open, he wouldn't sit on his hands, in 42...He read Mien Kampf...Roosevelt wanted in the war badly, pushed Japan with the oil embargo, then covered up knowing of the attack on Pearl Harbor...Look at the Maine or Luisitania, talk about triggers in Americian History...lol

[8D]
Jon

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: Polonthi

The US did do the embargo on Japan because of China so do anyone think they will look at Japan invading Russia and stay put doing nothing?

Well actually in game terms the oil embargo you refer to is in effect even if Japan chooses Russia over China. Other than that, yes they just might stay put and do nothing for a long while. Afterall, the West did not have much love for Russia, and if Japan and Russia started to war again when it was just a few years ago they had their last war, most Westerners probably would have just rolled their eyes and said "there they go again."

By the way Japan did try their luck against Russia in 1939 in Mongolia and were trashed badly. There shouldn't be any reason for Russia not to be able to attack Japan anytime as they did against Finland in 39, against Poland to help their German friends, against Roumania to get Moldavia. Stalin was eager to increase his realm so why not against Japan if he feels like it?

Because maybe Russia realized that in hindsight the reason they trashed the Japs so badly before was really a stroke of luck. What should have been a surprize attack on Russia instead turned out to be a big surprize for the Japs because Russia was informed of the attack and was well prepared for it. Stalin or any substitute ruler should be wise enough to know that Japan learned a hard lesson on that one and would not be so easy the second time around. So in fact I'm more than satisfied with the Manchurian garrison requirement of 3 troops to deter Russia from any thoughts of expansion into Jap territory. If you feel 3 is not enough then perhaps 4 would please you more, but the effect on gameplay would be minor.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Would the U.S stand by and watch Japan invade the Dutch West Indies...They might on this one, if the Japanise, spent enough, political points...I think there should be a seperation between Dutch/British teritories and American's in SE Asia.

I don't believe any amount of political wheelings and dealings would have allowed Japan to attack the Dutch West Indies without that bringing in the US. So they might as well do Pearl Harbor instead and catch the US off guard.

Do the the Germans have to declare war on the U.S. just because Japan does...Ect..Ect...Ect

I just don't see how once the US is in the war that they would have confined it to one front. Also since the US is totally unfrozen once any Axis attacks it, the German declaration of war that you refer to is meaningless.

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: Polonthi

Why should Russia keeps this silly deployment of forces knowing Germany is getting ready for an attack. Barbarossa was not a surprise, Russian intelligence had all the needed warnings but Stalin didn't want to upset Hitler and prefer to ignore all those signs. So why do we need to stay as stupid as Stalin (in that case) if a german player can avoid Hitler mistakes?

Yes it's true that if we can undo the mistakes Hitler made by assuming command ourselves and using hindsight to improve your chances, why not allow the Allies the same liberties? Well my answer to that would be that it would make for a very poor game. The Axis would never have a chance. If it wasn't for the Frozen rules, Russian could pull back all his forces from the front and Barbarossa would not be the smashing success it was at first. Then the rest of the war would result in them trading these few places back and forth with little chance that Germany could ever get close to Moscow or the Caucasus. Even more complicated games like the one refered to are guilty of setting things up so that Germany has a chance. They make tables to penalize you in artificial ways so that you don't metagame. But some of you are arguing that these tables make things more realistic. They don't as much as you think they do. They are artificial constructs to balance the playing field by applying penalties so that it's not a no-brainer to change your setup to prepare for what you know is coming from hindsight. WAW does away with these more complicated tables by just using the frozen rules and setting up some nuetrals as frozen German territory. In the end, the right feel is preserved without added complexity.

[Lebatron]

Speaking of the oil embargo and how it forced Japan to declare war on the WA's, I wanted to point out that most of what you have a problem with is not really the US entry date, but rather the poor balance that forces the Axis to do the Russian double team most games and delay US entry as long as possible. If the Pacific theater worked in the stock game, then you would see many games in which the Japs attack the US around the historical timeframe to secure some oil rich areas. If the game played like that(it can in my mod), and only some games used the Axis double team on Russia, nobody would be complaining about the US fixed entry date of Winter 1943, because it would be a moot point most games. Did you know that before patch 1.040 the US jumped right to x3 production if Japan attacked them? So if you think it's currently stupid to bring the US in early, it was even more so before. 2by3 used my idea from Franco's Alliance to leave the US production multiple at x2 if Japan attacked. It helps a little, but really doesn't work fully unless the US drives through the South Pacific first as my house rule in Franco's Alliance encourages.  

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: Polonthi

So I do look at Franco Alliance as a great work done as a modif but I think there is still a few flaws to be addressed. Now I'm not almighty so it's just something I propose open to discussions. After that not sure if I'll be able to do even a partial mod but maybe we can bring some real authentic flavor to GGWAW as you can feel it in WIF.

1/ Totally agree on making Spain a German ally and think making him unfrozen if London falls is not a bad idea. Now as taking London is not that complicate we should make the US enter war against Germany if London falls. Roosevelt wouldn't let Britain go without a fight. Maybe a partial mobilization like unfreezing only the East of USA would be good enough.

Well if I had the US unfreeze when London falls then the chances the Axis could get AV would fall quite a bit. I'm open to considering this as it does seem more realistic, but playbalance would need to be modified. A partial east coast unfreeze may work along with a reduction to the AV requirement. Drop it by a few points maybe? Please take your suggestion over to the Franco mod thread and we can continue the discussion there. What I could do is make a beta version of 2.5 for you and others that may be interested in trying some of these ideas out. It would help to find the right mix of what works and what doesn't.

2/ Iraq should be an frozen German ally also and get activated with one Militia if Germany enters Syria, Palestine or Egypt (both land zone). 1 militia inside would be plenty enough as troops.

I didn't want to go wild with changing neutrals and only changed Spain because it was so obvious to me that there was a problem with metagaming there. However, I would consider this. Also someone had mentioned Turkey too.

3/ No factory for Hungary and no deduction of 1 Russia factory. It's difficult to balance a game by changed production but adding one factory for Hungary is putting Hungary on the same level than Rumania which is simply not the case.

That 1 factory in Hungary does not put it at the same level as Rumania. Rumania has 3 factories. As far as building 1 militia every other turn, which each could do, I don't see that as putting them on an equal level. Rumania could also build 10 supply which would represent more material for the war effort. Not having a factory in Hungary was an oversight on 2by3's part. Since you can only work in integers on this game, 1 is closer to reality then zero would you not agree?

Also to deduct one factory from Russia is putting aside the fact that Russia did mobilize and loose way more troops than any other countries in this war. At the begining of Barbarossa the german had about 3,000,000 man in Russia against 4,700,000 millions Russian soldiers. In 1941 the germans did loose about 600,000 man and russia 4,000,000 man but then in April 1942 there was 4,000,000 german soldiers in Russia against 5,000,000 russians. This means you wipe out almost all the Russian troops on the map and put them back one year later. This capacity of recovery is difficult to translate in a game. At the end of the war Russia did loose 13,600,000 man against 3,500,000 germans and 295,000 Americans. Stalin wanted to win but didn't care much how and at what cost. As I say this is difficult to translate in a game but certainly not by diminishing their production. One thing would be to get militia like for China. Their value are low and they die fast but you still need to kill them. After that then you could take of one factory for play balance.

Them vast numbers of troops your refer to are partly from the initial drafting that creates all them free militia everywhere. Changing it so that it worked like China instead would actaully be a worse tradoff for Russia. It's better to get them all at once and be able to move them into concentrations then to have to wait for Germany to attack a certain zone like in China to create them. As far as them now having 12 factories, that was done so that the battle is more desparate than it is in the regular game. That is if Japan does not attack Russia and plays more historically. At 13 without Japans help the Germans don't have much chance of really pushing deep. And that is where the fun is. You got to keep in mind that the stock game almost allways plays out with an Axis double team and therefore Russia really needs 13 then. But my mod adds extra territories in the far east and there is the changes in the Pacific to consider too. In the end Russia does not need as much production as it does in the stock game. Anyway there is a 13th factory in the build que, so the full cost of a 13th does not need to be paid. To be honest I had considered leaving it at 13, but only if I added a new house rule that prevented any lend lease to Russia until Germany attacks. But it just seemed easier to leave a house rule out when the same thing can be achieved in game.

4/ Optional rule of stacking limit in Gibraltar. I understand for Infantry and even more for tanks but not for Artillery and Anti-air guns unless you want to leave Gibraltar open to air attack and an easy invasion. The germans had a awfull hard time to do the blitz so bombing Gibraltar from Italy shouldn't be a walk in the park either.

Don't forget that Northern Italy is now range 3 from Gibraltar due to the double dorder I made on the coastline of Northern Italy. Only German heavy bombers can reach from there, and if they do, they would get torn up by the Flak and 2 fighters most likely stationed there. Only by putting fighters and tac air on Sardinia would Germany have the airpower to take Gibraltar. If Germany goes all out like this to take Gibraltar, well then, maybe it should fall. If the Brits really wanted to stop the Germans from taking it, then they could try to hold the Western Med with sea power. That would be costly since the Axis would have air superiority over the area. That would be realitic too, because Gibraltar is not an airbase with unlimited capacity. My mod is set up so that the WA's have to attack Vichy territory in North Afica to find better places to base the aircraft and thus gain air superiority over the Med.

5/ Japan goes West. Well the USA did embargo all Oil trade because of China and they would let Japan invade Russia without doing anything? Would also make the US goes to war because of that but let's say 2 turns after the invasion so to reflect a diplomatic period before going to war.

I touched on this topic already, but I will repeat that due to my changes the Axis double team is not the only viable Axis strat anymore. Even with my changes if the Axis still choose the double team strat, the US entry of Winter 1943 still works fine. The game could still go either way.

6/ Pacific priority zones. This a fair idea but only speaking of amphibious assaults not for surface ships. Truk is in zone C and I wouldn't see Nimitz not bombing this place to dust if he had the chance and there was Japanese carriers there. With the right intelligence available the US will surely show the Japanese how a Pearl Harbor is done but without any infamy.

You may be misreading my house rule. In it I do say that air is free to attack anything in range. Go ahead and bomb Truk. The movement restriction is for surface ships only as that represents caution not to enter hostile waters that you have no air superiority over. US raiding into hostile waters has been an unrealitic feature of this game. You can send in a surface ship, go past several Jap held islands, sink some transport and get the hell back out before the Japs could respond. Well that does not take place in a minute I might add. It takes several days to travel that far, and in that time Jap air patrols could spot the US ships sailing way past range of air cover. What do you think would happen? Its realitively easy to rebase air to sink them ships. If the carrier air were the only aircraft protecting the fleet, Jap land based air could quickly overcome them. But this can't happen with an I go you go turn based system. If it was realtime then what I explained above could happen. So what I tried to create was a realtime feel by making it necessary for the US to take an island, rebase air cover there, then move forward again one step at a time. The letter categories reflect the priorities, with varying path choices, that reflect real world politics that the Pacific committee made up of several nations considered the most important areas to secure first. Hence Australia would not be abandoned by the US to fend for itself.

7/ Russia, well this would be the tricky part and not sure if possible but we should change Russia a bit. First would be to let Russia declare war on any minor country or Japan. Not Germany unless in 43 like initialy done. Declaring war on a minor or Japan should go with a price and it could be postponing USA entry by 1 or 2 turns for Japan or more. Russia was aggressive as proven by the Winter War against Finland, the invasion of Poland and the annexion of Moldavia. Being left alone by Hitler what would have been next for Stalin? Turkey was a prize he really wanted to grab. Secondly if Russia is not frozen we should still force her to garrison the border with Germany with a minimum of troops in each land zone. The easiest I gues would be to find a way to put partisan against russia in those zone if the garrison limit is not met. Then for the rest Russia would be free to change the way it views her defense. Germany can changes Barbarossa then Russia can change her defense. That sounds fair to me.

I see what you are saying. Drop the frozen rules and replace with garrison requirments across the board. I will consider this further.

[PyleDriver]

Lebatron, the point, and only point I'm suggesting is in this game, is that, to add a political table inwhich we have a little influence, in the triggers and consiquences, would be outragagous...The finer points can be argued later...And this is not addressed to you, but to 2by3.

Jon Pyle

[Lebatron]

I understand the point your trying to make. However my counterpoint is that if the Pacific theater was fixed, the US entry date would be a moot point since the Axis double team of Russia would be much less common. If the Japs are always surprize attacking the US in late 41 or early 42, does it really matter if some Axis tention table would have placed US entry at late 42 or even late 43? You are asking 2by3 to fix the wrong thing. It's not the US holding off declaring war till 43 that's the problem here, it's the fact that the Japs never want to attack the US until Fall 42. I have fixed this issue in Franco's Alliance by making the historic Japanese strategy viable again. And have added territories to the Soviet Far East to balance an Axis double team squeeze with the historic Jap strat. So in essence the Japs now have basically 3 main directions they could lead to victory. 1 Russian strat. 2 China/India strat. 3 Historic Pacific strat.  At this point I doubt there is anything that 2by3 could do to fix the stock game. There are no such mechanics in play that would make the South Pacific work correctly. Therefore only house rules that in effect force the US not to ignore the South Pacific can fix this theater.

[PyleDriver]

But not everyone who buys this game, has found this web site...Or has found your greatness...Why dont you go to work for these guys?...Or do you?...lol

[&o]
Jon Pyle

[PyleDriver]

Ok here it goes agian, there are no, and I mean NO, politics in the game. If Japan drives deep into China, after the embargo, the Japanise Player should know the risk the U.S. coming in...You have done a great job at balancing the game, however, if the Japanise did attack the Soviets, agian there should be the fear of Americian activation...I think myself, and others are mearly saying, don't put things in a box....Why do you think we liberateded the Philipians, when Formosa, (sorry I'm a poor speller) would have done the same, with less losses...Politics...Even Hitler launched the Kursk Offensive, after being told it would fail, because of the political picture..."We don't wan't no stinking boxes" its better said in a Mexician acsent...lol

[8D]
Jon

[Lebatron]

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

But not everyone who buys this game, has found this web site.

Your right about that. Its to bad that the official home page at http://www.worldatwaronline.com sucks. It does a poor job of bringing the W@W player community together. Nor is there a place on that site that lists player made mods. It has a downloads subsection that sits emtpy other than a reference to an out of date patch. Take a look at the homepage of GalCiv2 for an example of how it should be done. There players need no other place to gather to discuss ideas and contribute to the future of the game franchise. If 2by3 took that approach I'm 100% certain that the W@W player community would be larger and more in touch with each other. The problem is less than 1 out of 10 who bought this game ever bothered to come to the forum here. But I can say almost 100% of PC gamers will visit the homepage of a game they bought at least a few times. If the homepage isn't a ghost town they will keep coming back for as long as the game interests them. I know this for a fact. I got 3 close friends that are PC game geeks like myself[:D] Of the 4 of us I'm the only one that ever visits the forum here. But when I'm over their houses we have many times spent time looking at homepages of the games we frequently play. Tony likes the GalCiv2 homepage for instance and will keep looking it over for new news, but he will not enter the forum for W@W even though he likes the game a lot. My theory is that most gamers are like my friends rather than me, and will not look far to find where the discussions are taking place. Which is why the homepage must be where the action is so to speak.
You listening Joel?

[Petiloup]

Hi Lebatron,

In fact I'm trying to do a mod based on what I saw you did in "Franco Alliance" that I'm calling "Stalin Gamble". It's pretty much at an end of the whatever Alpha or Beta version but still struggling a bit with the unfrozen part as I'd like because of the limit per region. Still it begin to come nicely to some results. That explain also why I didn't look at the forums for a few days. I must say that without your mod I would have had way more difficulties to do it, if I even would have think it possible. Let me first reply you then let you know some of my changes. Maybe we could try those changes together and see how it goes.

ORIGINAL: Lebatron

Well if I had the US unfreeze when London falls then the chances the Axis could get AV would fall quite a bit. I'm open to considering this as it does seem more realistic, but playbalance would need to be modified. A partial east coast unfreeze may work along with a reduction to the AV requirement. Drop it by a few points maybe? Please take your suggestion over to the Franco mod thread and we can continue the discussion there. What I could do is make a beta version of 2.5 for you and others that may be interested in trying some of these ideas out. It would help to find the right mix of what works and what doesn't.

[reply] At the end I'm opting for a partial unfreeze of the USA, not sure where the play balance would need to be stopped as the US without the Pacific to leave a "peacefull" Japanese player alone or a partial continental US.[/reply]

2/ Iraq should be an frozen German ally also and get activated with one Militia if Germany enters Syria, Palestine or Egypt (both land zone). 1 militia inside would be plenty enough as troops.

I didn't want to go wild with changing neutrals and only changed Spain because it was so obvious to me that there was a problem with metagaming there. However, I would consider this. Also someone had mentioned Turkey too.

[reply] I did the change with 1 militia inside. Iraq stays frozen till Cairo is occupied. Very easy to put down for the British anytime before they move so just for the fun of doing it.

For Turkey this is less obvious, as Russia is at the border. Hitler was trying to use the Arabs to create some unrest against the British but the Turks are not big friends with Arabs so how to combine both? what would be the interests for the Turks unless Hitler is really winning the war and at that point Turkey losses it's interest.[/reply]

3/ No factory for Hungary and no deduction of 1 Russia factory. It's difficult to balance a game by changed production but adding one factory for Hungary is putting Hungary on the same level than Rumania which is simply not the case.

That 1 factory in Hungary does not put it at the same level as Rumania. Rumania has 3 factories. As far as building 1 militia every other turn, which each could do, I don't see that as putting them on an equal level. Rumania could also build 10 supply which would represent more material for the war effort. Not having a factory in Hungary was an oversight on 2by3's part. Since you can only work in integers on this game, 1 is closer to reality then zero would you not agree?

[reply] I agree an at the end did kept your idea, I have just changed the way Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria enters the war. This will be more related to Russia than Yugoslavia but still with an automatice release date after 41 or 42.[/reply]

4/ Optional rule of stacking limit in Gibraltar. I understand for Infantry and even more for tanks but not for Artillery and Anti-air guns unless you want to leave Gibraltar open to air attack and an easy invasion. The germans had a awfull hard time to do the blitz so bombing Gibraltar from Italy shouldn't be a walk in the park either.

Don't forget that Northern Italy is now range 3 from Gibraltar due to the double dorder I made on the coastline of Northern Italy. Only German heavy bombers can reach from there, and if they do, they would get torn up by the Flak and 2 fighters most likely stationed there. Only by putting fighters and tac air on Sardinia would Germany have the airpower to take Gibraltar. If Germany goes all out like this to take Gibraltar, well then, maybe it should fall. If the Brits really wanted to stop the Germans from taking it, then they could try to hold the Western Med with sea power. That would be costly since the Axis would have air superiority over the area. That would be realitic too, because Gibraltar is not an airbase with unlimited capacity. My mod is set up so that the WA's have to attack Vichy territory in North Afica to find better places to base the aircraft and thus gain air superiority over the Med.

[reply] True enough but then you should do a rule for Malta or other small places. There is nothing that prevent the German to build 10 Heavy air, launch them against Gibraltar with the help of a few heavy ships, 1 militia landing to make 2 heavy ships firing or more then if ever they bomb the artillery and 1 of the other 2 units left it will make it open for a sea invasion. I feel this is too easy as on my side I don't look at the number of troops as a problem of space but as a problem of time. Let me explain. A turn is a full season so in 3 months if air raids are destroying the capacity of Gibraltar to defend itself there would be no reason in real life to send some reinforcements to keep up fighting. As in the game a player do his whole turn before the other one can react then you need to transpose this time problem into being able to stack more troops than real. Now in the mod I'm doind I have simply state a house rule (very good idea) to forbid the UN player to invade any Neutral and/or Unfrozen German Ally unless it is Vichy or Iraq. Vichy because of the Free French issue and Iraq because it's the only way to translate that issue into the game. For the rest I don't think Churchill or Roosevelt would have invade Spain or Finland to get a foothold in Europe. It might be a game but you still need to play a democracy like one. That's why I wanted to change the Russia side as he's far from being a democrat (not a republican either .[/reply]

5/ Japan goes West. Well the USA did embargo all Oil trade because of China and they would let Japan invade Russia without doing anything? Would also make the US goes to war because of that but let's say 2 turns after the invasion so to reflect a diplomatic period before going to war.

I touched on this topic already, but I will repeat that due to my changes the Axis double team is not the only viable Axis strat anymore. Even with my changes if the Axis still choose the double team strat, the US entry of Winter 1943 still works fine. The game could still go either way.

[Reply] Didn't had the chance to test a squeeze move GER/JAP against Russia with Franco Alliance so not sure how Russia can do in this case. You have a point if it can resists pretty well already so will trust you on that. Now I wanted to create the option for Stalin to attack Japan before they did if he feels like it. Might work or not, stupid or not, just wanted the JAP to be scared with a real threat on their border not with merely 3 or 4 garrison of militia. Like it is it seems possible but need some play testing. Still did an house rule to make the SOV and the JAP sign a Non-aggression Pact before going to war that would be enforced till GER is dead for Russia or USA enter the war for JAP. If ever they go to war (call it a limited war) then they could enforce a peace by seizing some defined territories and then a Peace Treaty would be enforced the same way as the Non-Aggression pact. Of course this has to be respected by the players and is not enforced by the game itself[/reply]

6/ Pacific priority zones. This a fair idea but only speaking of amphibious assaults not for surface ships. Truk is in zone C and I wouldn't see Nimitz not bombing this place to dust if he had the chance and there was Japanese carriers there. With the right intelligence available the US will surely show the Japanese how a Pearl Harbor is done but without any infamy.

You may be misreading my house rule. In it I do say that air is free to attack anything in range. Go ahead and bomb Truk. The movement restriction is for surface ships only as that represents caution not to enter hostile waters that you have no air superiority over. US raiding into hostile waters has been an unrealitic feature of this game. You can send in a surface ship, go past several Jap held islands, sink some transport and get the hell back out before the Japs could respond. Well that does not take place in a minute I might add. It takes several days to travel that far, and in that time Jap air patrols could spot the US ships sailing way past range of air cover. What do you think would happen? Its realitively easy to rebase air to sink them ships. If the carrier air were the only aircraft protecting the fleet, Jap land based air could quickly overcome them. But this can't happen with an I go you go turn based system. If it was realtime then what I explained above could happen. So what I tried to create was a realtime feel by making it necessary for the US to take an island, rebase air cover there, then move forward again one step at a time. The letter categories reflect the priorities, with varying path choices, that reflect real world politics that the Pacific committee made up of several nations considered the most important areas to secure first. Hence Australia would not be abandoned by the US to fend for itself.

[Reply] Maybe I did make myself clear, sorry. In fact my issue is that it seems those rules are enforced against the US but not against Japan or does that mean Japan has to respect those priority zone also before doing a move? If so it will be strange to impose an axe of attack to the Japanese player and if not it means you have 2 players playing by different rule and by definition this is not fair. If the Japanese can go to the West Coast of US and prey on the lone transport ships there then the US should be able to do the same. I know it can be felt as not quite logical but you had a surprise attack from the British against Tarento in Italy and nobody did see it coming. I know the distance are not quite the same but it means that in WW2 there were times when things with not much chance of success were still achieved. Now in GGWAW if the Japanese want to avoid this then he needs planes to get an opportunity fire but of course he can then loose those quite fast. At the end after Midway there was just nothing much the JAP could do if the US wanted to go anywhere. Was till risky in 1943 but in 1944? Anyway we could debate on this a bit but if someone can hide his ships behind that rule then I have a problem with it. Now you are also right that the US can in GGWAW bomb the JAP ships even in Japan if he wants which he never tried to do so where is the right thing to do?[/reply]

7/ Russia, well this would be the tricky part and not sure if possible but we should change Russia a bit. First would be to let Russia declare war on any minor country or Japan. Not Germany unless in 43 like initialy done. Declaring war on a minor or Japan should go with a price and it could be postponing USA entry by 1 or 2 turns for Japan or more. Russia was aggressive as proven by the Winter War against Finland, the invasion of Poland and the annexion of Moldavia. Being left alone by Hitler what would have been next for Stalin? Turkey was a prize he really wanted to grab. Secondly if Russia is not frozen we should still force her to garrison the border with Germany with a minimum of troops in each land zone. The easiest I gues would be to find a way to put partisan against russia in those zone if the garrison limit is not met. Then for the rest Russia would be free to change the way it views her defense. Germany can changes Barbarossa then Russia can change her defense. That sounds fair to me.

I see what you are saying. Drop the frozen rules and replace with garrison requirments across the board. I will consider this further.

[Reply] My approach here is to enable Stalin to go for Persia and Turkey, not speaking of Aghanistan. Turkey can lead to an early limited war with Germany. I mean limited because it would unfreeze some regions but not the border states with Germany. Those would unfreeze in 1943 or if Germany attacks them. Still both players could bleed to death fighting over Turkey or Germany could just drop it and let Russia have Turkey then by an house rule Stalin would be authorized to attack Greece or Bulgaria. If during that "limited war" Germany invade a region or Russia then it would be Total War also. At anytime they could ask for Peace and have one till 1943 or later if the players want too. As for Japan "limited war" nothing can prevent the players to negociate their own peace by giving/taking regions, agree to a Absolute Peace till that date or so, put this condition as US at war or not, and then prepare for the next round. The only one above this idea of creating an empire would be the UN player.

I know that GGWAW in its sense is only about putting Germany and Japan out by one date and look at the victory points but still you could look at doing a table to see who's winning between Stalin and the Anglo-saxons. If you don't put an end date then you could imagine Stalin ending with a bigger chunk of the word than in reality.

At the end I did the mod "Stalin Gamble" just to see if I could and for fun.

As part of the changes I have added:

- Vichy declaring war if London falls and giving Vichy 1 heavy and 1 light fleet,

- Putting Syria as a German controlled region after vichy but with no troop,

- Added on Tac Air in Malta at the start of the game to give an opportunity fire on the first turn and avoid invading Egypt right away,

- Putting Italy is unfrozen german ally before Paris falls to avoid unfreezing Vichy right away but taking Tunisia or Algeria,

- Putting Scapa Flow on the Scottish and the North Sea,

- Changing the activation of Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria.

- Also the one of Finland to a region near Leningrad (name escapes me right now),

- Added a factory to Turkey to entice the GER or the SOV to attack it.

- Enable Italy and Rumania to build infantry and Italy fighters, don't think it changes much as you still need Supply and Research points from somewhere but they did had a consequent army even if of poorer quality in general.

- Change the Factory multiplier of Italy to 3 in 1944 (if she's still in the war she might have produce better weapons as you can see she was doing in 1943 already).

- Put the costs of the UN player to 1000 supply to invade a neutral and changes Azores to a Frozen ally region that is unfreeze when Paris falls.

- Put one infantry in South Africa and generate militia if invaded.

- Diminish the number of German tanks from 7 to 5 with 1 more in Tripoly and 1 in the next phase of production. To compensate for the cost of production have given 1 more infantry to the German. This way you have to use some air support to take Paris or you might well fail. France was not so a sure thing and only the inept high command of France did loose all chances to win but still Germany was on an all out attack there and didn't do much more then Denmark and Norway on top of it. This way he still can but going for Yugoslavia at the same time is not so easy anymore.

- Diminish the range of the german Heavy and Tactical air to represent the Blitzkrieg strategy meaning close support not long range attack. To compensate I have increased their LA strength. Next I'd like to put a 2 MP border with North-Sea/Scotland to represent the increased distance from the continent (any help there as I'm still looking how to do that). The Luftwaffe was already struggling to hit the South of Britain so hitting Scotland??? This way it means you should have more to protect England as Scotland is hard to hit with more than anything but Heavy Air units if you increase their range first as I did decrease it. THIS would be my major change beside politics but I feel it can represent the limitation Germany had in planning anything like Operation Sea Lion. You want it then you can still do it but England will tougher to resist and it will cost more so the Russian will gain something there also. This would be fairly accurate in it's effect but it might create a total unbalance in the game and make it impossible for the German but that I don't know before some testing. Making it harder as I say also I'm not sure if after your mod of Franco Alliance it needed to be any harder for the German but I did those mods more in the spirit to represent the limits Nazi Germany did had at the beginning of the War and that they could work to change it later on if they wanted but in 1940 they had ME109 and Stukas not Mustangs and B17 so they have to live by it.

Thanks for any comments.