Thoughts on Waypoints.

The highly anticipated second release in the Panzer Command series, featuring an updated engine and many major feature improvements. 3D Tactical turn-based WWII combat on the Eastern Front, with historical scenarios and campaigns as well as support for random generated battles and campaigns from 1941-1944.
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76mm
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: Mobius
I don't see a way to relate multiple waypoints in a simple platoon order command. It is like issuing written orders to all the subunits of just how far to go before turning off the highway, what point to turn 48° move another 120m and what tree to park next to in advance of actually moving out. At least how do make it seem like this is not happening?

First, I don't understand the difference between waypoints and "order chains" mentioned by Eric?

Second, this discussion reminds of the discussion on covered arcs. While I agree that a long chain of waypoints is unrealistic, and unnecessarily complex, having a couple of waypoints is in no way unrealistic.

In real life, if a platoon leader wants his platoon to move to a destination, he could simply point to it and rely on his trained and experienced squad leaders and TCs to execute the move along the best covered routes. Or he could simply lead himself and rely on his subordinates to follow him--no need for written orders at all.

And all this nonsense about "48 degrees" and "120 meters"--again, in real life, no one would think about meter or degrees at all--they're thinking in terms of covered routes, potential kill zones, etc. For instance, why is it unrealistic to suppose that a squad would sneak 20 meters up to a road, dash five meters across the road, and then make a 90 degree turn into a gully on the far side? They wouldn't be thinking about any of the meters or degrees--just "up to the road"--"across the road"--"into the gully".

The fact is that IN REAL LIFE you have subordinates who can think for themselves to at least some extent and don't need *every* *single* *action* spelled out for them (yes, even in the Russian army!). In a game where your subordinates are unthinking automatons, you need waypoints to give them some semblance of intelligence.

If you're worried about people getting carried away, limit the number of waypoints (2-4?).
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: Mraah


Instead of waypoints ... an ETA (estimated time of arrival).

How about a time value (in seconds) at the end of the rubberband. You know, to give us an idea, based on the route the unit takes, an estimate of how long he's gonna get there. The actual time could help, but perhaps an estimate would be more realistic ... The Platoon Commander might have to take his shoes off to count higher than 10 [:D].

But seriously folks ... You think this would be a good compromise instead of waypoints?

Rob


Rob,

A bit further up in the thread Erik mentioned wanting to put estimated position at end of phases on the rubber bands (I assume as some kind of marker). This would be just as good as waypoints for me, if not better.

Rick
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I'm happy with either a movement to enter/load order or the ability to add an enter/load order at the end of whatever movement order I've already given them. Leaving a building or unloading from a vehicle could be automatic with any kind of movement order and not need anything special.

MR

I really dont want to see it done automatically, except as a special order. ie move to enter, or move to mount order. Sometimes I just want to move to a building for cover, without entering.

Rick
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: Mobius

I think one way-point is good enough to get my units to face the right way at the end of a move.  Other than that I think way-points are an answer in search of a question.

Ah, yes. I'd forgot about facing. besides mount at end for infantry, maybe a facing at end for Vehicles. Good point.

Rick
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by Mobius »

ORIGINAL: Rick
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I'm happy with either a movement to enter/load order or the ability to add an enter/load order at the end of whatever movement order I've already given them. Leaving a building or unloading from a vehicle could be automatic with any kind of movement order and not need anything special.
MR
I really dont want to see it done automatically, except as a special order. ie move to enter, or move to mount order. Sometimes I just want to move to a building for cover, without entering.
Rick
If done in movement there should be a time cost. To mount up on vehicles would take maybe 20-40 seconds. If dismounting maybe half that time. Entering building might require more time as just barging into an unknown building could be dangerous. So time is taken to check it out and make sure it is clear.
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: Mobius
ORIGINAL: Rick
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I'm happy with either a movement to enter/load order or the ability to add an enter/load order at the end of whatever movement order I've already given them. Leaving a building or unloading from a vehicle could be automatic with any kind of movement order and not need anything special.
MR
I really dont want to see it done automatically, except as a special order. ie move to enter, or move to mount order. Sometimes I just want to move to a building for cover, without entering.
Rick
If done in movement there should be a time cost. To mount up on vehicles would take maybe 20-40 seconds. If dismounting maybe half that time. Entering building might require more time as just barging into an unknown building could be dangerous. So time is taken to check it out and make sure it is clear.


Very good point - I have to admit, I hadn't thought about that. (of course, there isn't any time penalty right now) I can hop into bldg, then out in my order phase. But you are right it does take time (though not much for small cottages).

Rick


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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by bardolph »

nm
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by 76mm »

I was also thinking that it might be cool if the number of way points units may use depends upon their experience/quality.

For instance, conscript troops might actually need to be led by the hand at every step (no waypoints). An elite unit might fall back on SOPs, excellent NCOs, etc. so that they could execute some kind of maneuver based on a simple hand-signal from the platoon leader (3-4 waypoints).

As things stand now, I understand that there is no difference between how conscript and elite units execute orders? Maybe this is one way to draw distinctions between troops of different quality?
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by z1812 »

Hi 76mm,

Those ideas sound quite interesting and very imaginitive. Good thoughts.

regards John
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by British tommy »

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

When I play CM, I never check HQs for bonus and move people around for an advantage. I rarely use arcs. I don't like to pbem people who have learned all the tricks of the game and beat me because of that, instead of beating me with tactics.

But this happens with all war games out there and no doubt will happen with this game as well. My answer is to find players who like to use tactics and then stick with them for PBEM games.

As for arcs, it's there within the game but your not forced to use them if you don't like them. The more options a game has, the more players you will keep happy. I like way points and would like to see them in this game. If the option to use them (or switch way points on) is within the game, then both of use would be happy [:)]
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Rick

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I'm happy with either a movement to enter/load order or the ability to add an enter/load order at the end of whatever movement order I've already given them. Leaving a building or unloading from a vehicle could be automatic with any kind of movement order and not need anything special.

MR

I really dont want to see it done automatically, except as a special order. ie move to enter, or move to mount order. Sometimes I just want to move to a building for cover, without entering.

Rick

Then don't end the movement order on the building.

Good Hunting.

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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: Mobius

If done in movement there should be a time cost. To mount up on vehicles would take maybe 20-40 seconds. If dismounting maybe half that time. Entering building might require more time as just barging into an unknown building could be dangerous. So time is taken to check it out and make sure it is clear.

Why is that? It's not that way now. If I get close enough to the building I hit the mount command and they are in. The mount command at the moment costs me nothing but being close enough. No time penalty.

I'll assault the building if I need to but I'm NOT going to sit outside on the ground for 40 seconds while we all talk about going inside!!

We are not got to take a break and "smoke and joke" while we decide on how to get in there. The order to advance into the building would have been given before we ever started moving towards it. Buildings are extremely dangerous combat situations. You don't just decide to wander over and see if you're invited to supper.

When you move towards a building you do so with a purpose in your life if you want said life to continue into the foreseeable future.

Good Hunting.

MR
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Rick

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I'm happy with either a movement to enter/load order or the ability to add an enter/load order at the end of whatever movement order I've already given them. Leaving a building or unloading from a vehicle could be automatic with any kind of movement order and not need anything special.

MR

I really dont want to see it done automatically, except as a special order. ie move to enter, or move to mount order. Sometimes I just want to move to a building for cover, without entering.

Rick

Then don't end the movement order on the building.

Good Hunting.

MR

The way building are right now are impassible, which means you move "close" to a building, then mount (as I'm sure you know), you don't actually moved "on" to a building. I simply don't want to end up mounting, or entering the buiilding unless I spefically order the unit to enter it. Buildings make good cover to hide behind as well as to hide in.

Thanks
Rick
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by Mobius »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
ORIGINAL: Mobius
If done in movement there should be a time cost. To mount up on vehicles would take maybe 20-40 seconds. If dismounting maybe half that time. Entering building might require more time as just barging into an unknown building could be dangerous. So time is taken to check it out and make sure it is clear.

Why is that? It's not that way now. If I get close enough to the building I hit the mount command and they are in. The mount command at the moment costs me nothing but being close enough. No time penalty.
The net result of the way it is now is that it takes somewhere between 0-40 seconds to enter a building depending on your end move position. Thus 20 seconds on average. I thought the goal was to be more realistic?
Plus it there are ever basements added to the game you wouldn't know if the building was occupied until you get right up to it.
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I'll assault the building if I need to but I'm NOT going to sit outside on the ground for 40 seconds while we all talk about going inside!!
Right blindly barge the entire squad through the door in to take a SMG burst in the face. Plus there would have to be a door in the direction of the entry or are the squadies going to leap through the windows?
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by RocketMan »

ORIGINAL: Mobius
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I'll assault the building if I need to but I'm NOT going to sit outside on the ground for 40 seconds while we all talk about going inside!!
Right blindly barge the entire squad through the door in to take a SMG burst in the face. Plus there would have to be a door in the direction of the entry or are the squadies going to leap through the windows?

At the scale PZCK is modeled, there has to be some abstraction. Modeling a squads entry into a building through actual doors and windows is certainly to much detail.

What I would like to see is continuous movement into buildings rather than the mount command, with a large movement reduction for going through the building walls.
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by Mobius »

ORIGINAL: RocketMan
ORIGINAL: Mobius
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I'll assault the building if I need to but I'm NOT going to sit outside on the ground for 40 seconds while we all talk about going inside!!
Right blindly barge the entire squad through the door in to take a SMG burst in the face. Plus there would have to be a door in the direction of the entry or are the squadies going to leap through the windows?

At the scale PZCK is modeled, there has to be some abstraction. Modeling a squads entry into a building through actual doors and windows is certainly to much detail.

What I would like to see is continuous movement into buildings rather than the mount command, with a large movement reduction for going through the building walls.
I’ll go along with the abstraction argument if we could apply it also to something like “that a squad would sneak 20 meters up to a road, dash five meters across the road, and then make a 90 degree turn into a gully on the far side”.

Let’s just order it to move cautiously to the gully on the other side of the road facing a selected direction.
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: RocketMan

At the scale PZCK is modeled, there has to be some abstraction. Modeling a squads entry into a building through actual doors and windows is certainly to much detail.

What I would like to see is continuous movement into buildings rather than the mount command, with a large movement reduction for going through the building walls.

I think thats was what Mobius had in mind in his first post about a time penalty - and While I hadn't thought about it, it makes sence

If I recall correctly, there's a slight penalty applied to crossing a fence when moving, so it only makes sense to put one in for entering a building. And I agree - we don't want to mess with doors and window and what not.


Rick

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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by thewood1 »

I think CM also applies a certain amount of time to enter buildings, as well as mounting AFVs.
 
Note that if you detail building entry, you will end up with the mess called CMSF.
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by 76mm »

ORIGINAL: Mobius
I’ll go along with the abstraction argument if we could apply it also to something like “that a squad would sneak 20 meters up to a road, dash five meters across the road, and then make a 90 degree turn into a gully on the far side”.

So are waypoints "unrealistic" or "not abstract enough"? [&:] Two different issues...

Also, I strongly disagree with the notion that modeling individual doors and windows in buildings is the same level of abstraction as including waypoints.
ORIGINAL: Rick
I think thats was what Mobius had in mind in his first post about a time penalty - and While I hadn't thought about it, it makes sence

As I understood it, Mobius was referring to the delay associated with the possibility of "losing a turn" because you can't combine a move and a mount in the same turn, rather than an explicit movement penalty as proposed by others. I guess this works from a realism perspective as long as players don't figure out how to time their movements so that they consistently have zero delay instead of 40 seconds. The bigger issue to me is that it just seems like a pain in the butt to have to micromanage units that are trying to enter buildings by having them mount.
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RE: Thouhts on Waypoints.

Post by rickier65 »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

As I understood it, Mobius was referring to the delay associated with the possibility of "losing a turn" because you can't combine a move and a mount in the same turn, rather than an explicit movement penalty as proposed by others. I guess this works from a realism perspective as long as players don't figure out how to time their movements so that they consistently have zero delay instead of 40 seconds. The bigger issue to me is that it just seems like a pain in the butt to have to micromanage units that are trying to enter buildings by having them mount.

Ah, maybe I jujst interpreted different then. I thought he meant if we tacked on a "mount" or "enter building" order we would need to alot time for it. And I really hope Matrix doesn't make it happen automatically, that means I'd lose the ability to hide behind buildings. And don't misundertand, I'd like to be able to order a unit to "Engage--Move-->Enter Building" I just dont want to see my unit entering unless I tell it to.

Ah well - I guess we all have our druthers. This is all stuff of the next game in series, so I imagine there will be plenty of discussions between now and when it comes out.


And I don't mind having waypoints - I just dont know that I need them if or at least not more than one or two.

I'm finding that I'm using Advance order now a lot (been experimenting with different orders to see how they turn out in game)

Rick
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