PzcK vs CMBB

[thewood1]

T5 for PCK:
 
I don't want to speak too soon, but this is a cakewalk.  I just finished off the last of the SU76s.  The BA64s are dead.  One T70 is dead.  Infantry is the only real threat left.  The P4s have turned their attention to the company coming down the RR tracks.  It previously killed one and now has one suppressed.  On the other side of the map, I accidently moved two squads out into the open when I was trying to move a platoon HQ up to a jump off point.  I w/d them in reaction with no issues.  I did have to rush a couple of HT out of LOS of a T70.  They started the turn in LOS after the T70 came out of a clump of woods about 200m away.  I had to sit through 40 seconds of the T70 missing shot after shot until it was distract by a 50mm mortar moving a few hundred meters away.  At least the 50s are good for something.
 
Comments:  I am not sure what I am doing differently between PCK and CMBB.  I have totally different results.  In PCK, no more than 3 hits were scored by the SU76s on the P4s.  The only AFV they killed was the 251 sprinting across the map.  In CMBB, the initial volleys from the SU76s and the P4s were off, but they homed in quickly.  It also seems like I am able to suppress the infantry in CMBB more readily, but they recover quickly after the fire is lifted.  In PCK, it seems that once the infantry is suppressed, the odds are they won't recover and eventually are dead.

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In PCK this depends on a "likely penetration check" which means that it wouldn't fire on a SU-76 on its own. Right now, you'd have to order it to area fire at the SU-76 to get it to button.

Even on an open top AFV where you could kill a crew or passenger?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I don't want to speak too soon, but this is a cakewalk.  I just finished off the last of the SU76s.  The BA64s are dead.  One T70 is dead.  Infantry is the only real threat left.  The P4s have turned their attention to the company coming down the RR tracks.  It previously killed one and now has one suppressed.  On the other side of the map, I accidently moved two squads out into the open when I was trying to move a platoon HQ up to a jump off point.  I w/d them in reaction with no issues.  I did have to rush a couple of HT out of LOS of a T70.  They started the turn in LOS after the T70 came out of a clump of woods about 200m away.  I had to sit through 40 seconds of the T70 missing shot after shot until it was distract by a 50mm mortar moving a few hundred meters away.  At least the 50s are good for something.

It seems the Panzer IVs did much better for you in PCK, which swung the balance. What ranges were you generally firing at in PCK and CMBB? In a small scenario, the difference can come down to a few good shots and the smaller it is, the larger a role luck plays as well. I'd be interested to look at the scenario file too, when you get a chance.

[qutoe]Comments:  I am not sure what I am doing differently between PCK and CMBB.  I have totally different results.  In PCK, no more than 3 hits were scored by the SU76s on the P4s.  The only AFV they killed was the 251 sprinting across the map.  In CMBB, the initial volleys from the SU76s and the P4s were off, but they homed in quickly.  It also seems like I am able to suppress the infantry in CMBB more readily, but they recover quickly after the fire is lifted.  In PCK, it seems that once the infantry is suppressed, the odds are they won't recover and eventually are dead.[/quote]

Infantry in PCK has roughly a 50% chance to recover from suppression each phase and I see them recover regularly. If they're in a very bad spot as far as the fire their taking, then of course staying there may not be a healthy thing. They can also be kept suppressed if the fire is pinning them, as you can recover from pinned to suppressed in one phase but not all they way from pinned to unsuppressed.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Even on an open top AFV where you could kill a crew or passenger?

Small arms won't automatically fire on vehicles in PCK unless they think they can penetrate them. They can be ordered to and open topped and unbuttoned vehicles are vulnerable to crew casualties in such cases, though they'll usually button up/duck down before that happens.

[thewood1]

T5 in CMBB

I still suck.  Two P4s down and the T70s are coming on support by the two (one?) SU76.  That last AC is still hanging around suppressing some infantry.  I have started dropping mortar rounds on one SU to see if I can suppress it.  I still have almost a company of PG left, but one platoon is stuck in the RR station and the other tow are in the woods waiting to jump off.  They have a lot of open ground to cover and I can see T70s hanging around along with at least a platoon of infantry.  If I can just KO the SUs, I have a chance to take on the T70s before range closes and the 45mm becomes a threat.

Comments:  I still suck.

Erik,

The ranges were generally between 800m and 600m in both.  The final firefight in PCK was about 600m.  The ongoing fight in CMBB has not been below 650m.  All hits have been front hull or turret.

It may be just the fact the infantry is walking down the middle of the road on the suppression issue.  One difference between CMBB and PCK is that the P4s in CMBB engaged the RR track infantry with hull MG while also shooting at the SUs.  This kept that infantry company in check for a while.  In PCK, they kept switching targets, but never engaged two at the same time.

[thewood1]

T6 in CMBB:
 
I don't suck as much.  The P4 killed the last two SUs just in time to start suppressing the infantry coming down the RR track.  I have given it an armor covered arc and hunt command towards the center of the map to hopefully pick off the T70s.  For those not familiar with CM.  The covered arc tells the P4 to only engage enemy in an arc set by me.  An armor CA means only engage armor.  It will ignore the CA if threatened outside the arc.  Hunt means move until a valid target appears, stop, engage, keep moving if enemy is destroyed.  I think its similar to defend move in PCK.  I am having all infnatry remain in place until I either win or lose the armor battle.

[thewood1]

T6 in PCK:
 
I am 3/4 of the way to victory.  I am bounding the P4 platoon to the RR station.  My infantry is somewhat useless at this point.  I have set up a platoon in woods in the middle of the map to cover the P4s flanks, but the P4s are picking off the T70s as they do their bounding movement.
 
Comments:  something about this was way too easy.  It may have been the initial setup.  I let the computer pick setup in PCK and then copied it CMBB.  I do think something is a little off in PCK.  6 SU76s sitting in LOS of three P4gs should have taken out at least 1, probably 2, before being wiped out.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
Comments:  something about this was way too easy.  It may have been the initial setup.  I let the computer pick setup in PCK and then copied it CMBB.  I do think something is a little off in PCK.  6 SU76s sitting in LOS of three P4gs should have taken out at least 1, probably 2, before being wiped out.

Tough to judge on only one replay without seeing the scenario. Luck can play a role especially at >700m ranges when initial hits become less likely. Although the SU-76s have decent guns, their guns are not as good as those on the Panzer IVs, nor is their armor able to handle much, nor are they as accurate. Each SU-76 is worth 29 points in PCK. Each Panzer IV(G?) is worth 62, so 3 vs. 6 is an even matchup, though not necessarily at all ranges.

[thewood1]

T7 in PCK
 
All three P4s firing at the rifle company on the RR tracks broke their back.  Over 80 seconds, three squads dead, the rest heading for the hills.  But it is a little dicey on the right flank.  All that infantry and the remaining T70s are making a run at the Soviet objective in the middle of the map.  They killed a second 251.  A remaing 251, two 50mm mortars, and a gaggle of infantry are holding them off.  I would like to send on P4 over there, but am not sure I want to deal with the command issues.  I may just send the whole platoon over.
 
Comments:  One of the 50mm mortars is taking an immense amount of fire and shrugging it off.  It is the first real heavy fire any of my infantry have seen.

[thewood1]

T7 and T8 in CMBB
 
I suck again.  That SU76 I thought I had killed wasn't dead.  It engaged my P4 at the end T8 from 800m just as it cam around a corner.  Now I have to deal with that threat.  If I had been more careful in tracking how many SUs my P4 killed I wouldn't have been surprised.  One of my issues is keeping the two games seperate in my mind.
 
What is amusing is that in RL, I couldn't have done the coordination I have in either game.  I would have had the infantry jump off at a selected time without knowing what threats had been dealt with.  My god's eye lets me hold back the infantry until the armor affair is settled.

[thewood1]

I am going to finish up each game and post results.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
What is amusing is that in RL, I couldn't have done the coordination I have in either game.  I would have had the infantry jump off at a selected time without knowing what threats had been dealt with.  My god's eye lets me hold back the infantry until the armor affair is settled.

At this scale? I'm not sure why you couldn't have held your platoon back - you're basically a company commander and you do have radios and platoon commanders.

[thewood1]

Here is the final screen:

In PCK, three turns later:

I kept my P4 platoon together to clear out the train station. They killed the last T70 from across the map. That allowed to rush up my 231 AC and that help wipe out the infantry on the right flank.

[thewood1]

CMBB final

I suck, but not as bad as I thought. I had to make an infantry assault to finally push the soviets to the breaking point. I had already captured the objective, but it was a hidden objective and the soviets built their last stand around the wrong flag.

My lone P4 had a final confrontation with an SU76 and won, but in the middlw of the fight a soviet mg killed the TC, who was unbottoned. While shocked the P4 shrugged off 3 hits. I was very lucky. The P4 went on to wipe out the last soviet armor and pin the cluster of squads defending the false flag. I had to do the final assault to end the game and took a few casualties doing it.

The final score really doesn't reflect how close it was. If I had lost my last P4, it was over. If they had managed to take and hold the true objective, I would have had at best a draw.

Comments: I gave myself 45 minutes in this and in the end, if it had been 30 minutes, I would have lost.

[thewood1]

I am not sure what to make of the completely different way the two games played out.  I am going to replay the PCK scenario again straight through and see if it was a fluke.
 
Off hand I would say the PCK AI waited too long to bring the T70s and infantry compay on its left into play.  If it had been coordinated with the SU76s and the company on its right.  They may have taken both objectives and decimated my infantry. 
 
What I have a problem with is the "uberness" of the P4gs.  6 SU76s should have been able to get more than 3 hits on 3 P4s not moving in open at 650m on average.  I am going to go back to the editor and check the experience/morale of the SUs and see if they are OK.
 
The other thing was the complete uselessness of infantry on both sides.  I am not sure what to make of that either.  Is it they were handled badly by both myself and the AI.  I don't know.
 
Now as to why I did this...I have seen BFC fans completely ignore any thing that remotely competes with CMBB.  I am hoping some of them look at this and it allows them to make a rational decision.  Face it CMBB/AK is dead.  So, depending on your priorities, you should look at any new bandwagon that comes to town.

[Erik Rutins]

Those results actually came out pretty similar - I think a lot swung on the fact that your Panzer IVs won the fight against the SU-76s in PCK more handily early on than in CM, which is what made the rest of the battle more of a tough fight in CM, though it ended up with a Major Victory and comparable casualties from the look of it.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I am not sure what to make of the completely different way the two games played out.  I am going to replay the PCK scenario again straight through and see if it was a fluke.

Luck can definitely be a factor in a scenario of this size. Could you post a copy of both scenarios here too so that we can give it a try as well?

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

I think it's also important not to draw conclusions that are too large out of a single scenario replay given luck and random factors. The games are different, but I think based on a larger pool of experience, impresions and feedback the other questions can be put in perspective. I think you highlighted some differences and also showed that close to the same scenario on close to the same map can end up with very similar results.

[thewood1]

How do I post a non image file?

[Erik Rutins]

Zip them each up and post them as attachments.