Command Ops: Battles From The Bulge takes the highly acclaimed Airborne Assault engine back to the West Front for the crucial engagements during the Ardennes Offensive. Test your command skills in the fiery crucible of Airborne Assault’s “pausable continuous time” uber-realistic game engine. It's up to you to develop the strategy, issue the orders, set the pace, and try to win the laurels of victory in the cold, shadowy Ardennes.
Command Ops: Highway to the Reich brings us to the setting of one of the most epic and controversial battles of World War II: Operation Market-Garden, covering every major engagement along Hell’s Highway, from the surprise capture of Joe’s Bridge by the Irish Guards a week before the offensive to the final battles on “The Island” south of Arnhem.
I don't get the logic here. You must have a printed manual because you're old fashioned but you don't want a printed manual afterall.
Why don't you just say say what you mean - you feel that a Battle of the Bulge game that explores the whole campaign in 27 scenarios and with a robust AI is a rip of for you at $80 USD.
There's always this - released in 2001, 20 scenarios (once a sentimental favourite of mine though no longer on my HD) and an AI that struggles at $50USD.
Maybe what Matrix needs is the Shamwow guy to show what "makes sense"
Thanks for your advise on HPS Bulge 44 and helping me decide to not buy the overpriced model and get a proven model at a much better price HPS Bulge 44. I played COTA again and to be honest it was ok, nothing great.
Hope you got it from NWS.. only 29 there (all HPS titles are)!
I think that the value of something is always subjective; we are just expressing points of view.
Reviews are the same: a reviewer could claim "objectiveness" but it's a myth.
I think that this thread is very rich of useful feedback for Panther Games, they have a "profile" of a good number of potential/already customers, and with these numbers at hand they can better decide future investments and marketing strategy.
Boardgames are a very different product type, so I think that the comparison doesn't work. The digital download version of a PC product eliminates a lot of costs, and boardgames are today (at least sometime) very rich of maps, counters, cards and so on, and the price can be higher. In the board-wargames sector the average price is higher than the PC games average.
Maybe I still hope that Panther Games will change its mind about BftB and convert HTTR scenarios freely for us, it would be great and it would lower the price issue (for those thinking it's an issue obviously).
I think that the value of something is always subjective; we are just expressing points of view.
Reviews are the same: a reviewer could claim "objectiveness" but it's a myth.
I think that this thread is very rich of useful feedback for Panther Games, they have a "profile" of a good number of potential/already customers, and with these numbers at hand they can better decide future investments and marketing strategy.
Boardgames are a very different product type, so I think that the comparison doesn't work. The digital download version of a PC product eliminates a lot of costs, and boardgames are today (at least sometime) very rich of maps, counters, cards and so on, and the price can be higher. In the board-wargames sector the average price is higher than the PC games average.
Maybe I still hope that Panther Games will change its mind about BftB and convert HTTR scenarios freely for us, it would be great and it would lower the price issue (for those thinking it's an issue obviously).
Bye!
This 'price' thread has probably helped them with regards to, it has changed a lot of people's minds...
I think the bigger loss, is the people who don't visit the forum... hear about a great game.. go to the store see the price and then move on...
I have been silently reading this thread for some time. But as a customer of Panther games, I think I deserve some forum space for my opinion.
I own HTTR and COTA and I do like the series. However, I am not yet convince that changes to the engine and new BotB scenarios justify the heavy price. I think one of the biggest things that annoy me is that there was no attempt to link the scenarios together to create a sort of grand campaign (please correct me if I am wrong). Going the extra mile to do this would have done a lot to convince me otherwise.
Mind you, I would not mind paying 80 for the software as is, but there would have to be a lot of "added value" to convince me to pay that much. With that in mind, I did think this was a good idea
My 2 cents. For me the price would be OK only for a gold edition, including HTTR+COTA scenarios with the new engine.
Somebody also said they should through in a printed manual at that price which I think is not such a bad idea (at lease it is a start).
I think one of the biggest things that annoy me is that there was no attempt to link the scenarios together to create a sort of grand campaign (please correct me if I am wrong). Going the extra mile to do this would have done a lot to convince me otherwise.
How do you think that could actually work with this series? I know a lot of folks like a 'campaign' option, but what this game offers is a series of historical scenarios as meticulously researched and accurately presented as possible. Any sort of 'carry forces forward and get new units' approach would just make a nonsense of that, even if not totally wrecking the balance of each scenario.
I can only think of two ways of doing it. One would be simply linking scenarios in temporal order but unless you have some sort of scenario 'unlocking' on successful completion of others (which would drive most people up the wall, including me), why bother? The other would be something like the branching campaigns of some of the HPS series with loads and loads of historical, partly historical and fictional scenarios depending on actions and outcomes but, again, would the demand be enough to justify the extra development time, which would be substantial?
I do remember when the top of the line EB games were at 40$. It was said they were so expensive because the MANUALS inflated the costs. Then I noticed the games quickly moved up into the 50$ bracket on the shelves, and just about non of them came with a manual anymore. So much for that theory about the manual cost. I think it was a ruse all along.
I haven't checked EB prices in ages as I don't go there anymore, but I bet average price for a new game is what, 60-70$ now? And I bet you still dont' get those big manuals and charts & posters like in the old days for half the price.
I really do miss when you'd purchase Civ III and get a really nice well done hefty manual, they were always a joy to read and keep as a souveneir. I still got manuals from TOAW etc. kicking around. Sometimes when on a trip to the dentist office and I know I'm going to have to burn off time, I'll tag one of these along and brief through em again for nostalgia.
I haven't checked EB prices in ages as I don't go there anymore, but I bet average price for a new game is what, 60-70$ now? And I bet you still dont' get those big manuals and charts & posters like in the old days for half the price.
Actually, the average price for a newly released PC game is between 40-50 bucks. I know that when Starcraft II comes out, that'll be somewhere around 55-60 dollars. I also recall id games being around 50-55 bucks when released. But on average, they're between 40-50. And depending on the game, you still get those big manuals you're talking about. It's only after a year or two when the publisher puts out a cheaper version that you won't see a manual with the game. It also largely depends on the type of game. You won't need anything beyond a hotkey card for an FPS, but for something like Civ IV, a big manual is nice!
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Actually, the currency value is different in from country to country so maybe I should have specified my values were in a CAN (get it?). Though I think the US & CAN were pretty close not to long ago, but that's probably changed for the worse with the terrible economy in the US right now.
Anyway, I still have a whole stack here of them manuals from all my older collections. It's almost like a library and I really ought to organize it all better someday. Maybe.... someday.
I still remember though, when you'd walk into a store, if you couldn't make up your mind between getting Civ III, or another game, one would just pick up the two boxes and notice something. The the first would seem very heavy, indicating getting something extra of value. The other would feel feather light, indicating lesser. So all things being equal, people would always go with the former.
I remember also when the trick of making the GAME BOX BIGGER seemed to be some sort of sales gimmick that started some new craze with the publishers. The EB guys used to tell me they hated stocking those because they minimized shelving space.
I just got here because a few minutes ago I read the perfect (8/8) review at outofeight.info. I'm a fan of wargames, but I hadn't heard of matrix games before, well, I did when I saw the Distant Worlds review, but didn't see any wargames. Well, more exactly, I'm a Paradox Interactive fan, mainly of the Europa Universalis and Hearts of Iron series. Now, I'm not trying to compare those games, but they cover a similar market, and PI markets is quite niche too. However, they have a different approach for the pricing. Let's take EU3, for example. If you but the game at release, as I did, it costs 40€. They patch it 3 times, then they release the first expansion, Napoleon's Ambition, for 20€, another patch and some time later, we get in nomine for another 20€. And when we thought it was all over, we get Heir to the Throne, that makes the game near perfect, for another 20€. In total, we paid 100€ to get a near perfect game. Had it sold for 100, or even 80€ at release, with all the expansions included?. Hell, no, it wouldn't. When they needed more money for the game, they released an expansion, so it wouldn't amount to that much.
However, as I see it from what I've read, Matrix is offering a near perfect game from the beginning, and justifies, with reason, that the game is worth it, something I'm not disputing. The problem is, that even if it's a niche market, it's STILL a videogame, even more, a PC videogame, and PC videogamers, even those to buy niche market games, aren't used to pay more than 50, let alone 80€/$ or more for a game, even if it's unique and near perfect. And we see the reaction here.
BftB has 27 missions, wouldn't it be better for the business to release the game with 13 missions at 50€/$ and 2 expansions of 7 missions with some AI and UI updates for 20€ each?.
The difference valrond is that over time the EU3 game came down to $7.99 complete less that last expansion. This BftB will 99.9% not come down to that level. You might see a 25% discount two years from now in December and that's it. I have no problem with games retailing for $80 what I have a problem with is them staying at $80 10 years from now. Check the dates of many of the Matrix Library and the prices. Some games are well over 5 years old and still their origional price or in the case of HTTR or COTA even HIGHER than they started out.
Still pointless... It's like going down to your favorite car company with a sign and calling the news media to broadcast your perspective about their pricing. Sure, you get your 15 minutes, but they aren't going to change their price because you are complaining about it. Especially if other people are buying their cars.
What affects price. Perceived value, quality and demand.
This game is in demand, it has perceived value and great quality. It is a BMW, Lexus, Rolls Royce, Mercedes, etc. You don't go to a BMW dealer and complain about price. They'll laugh you out of the dealership.
I'm kind of laughing here that this thread is still alive.
Still pointless... It's like going down to your favorite car company with a sign and calling the news media to broadcast your perspective about their pricing. Sure, you get your 15 minutes, but they aren't going to change their price because you are complaining about it. Especially if other people are buying their cars.
What affects price. Perceived value, quality and demand.
This game is in demand, it has perceived value and great quality. It is a BMW, Lexus, Rolls Royce, Mercedes, etc. You don't go to a BMW dealer and complain about price. They'll laugh you out of the dealership.
I'm kind of laughing here that this thread is still alive.
I'm not sure what country you live in but in the US buying a car is one big price negotiation, they won't "laugh you out of the dealer" unless you are being completely ridiculous.. wanting to pay 40-50 dollars for a video game instead of 80 is not the same as offering 10K dollars for a 50K car. People complain about the price all day long difference is the car dealer will cut you a deal because you will go somewhere else... here they got you by the nuts because you want something only they can sell, so that is why they are jacking up the price and saying PAY IT OR FUCK OFF. There can really be no demand for the game without supply... with digital downloads supply would be unlimited.. the only "demand" for the game is that you want it... higher price = lower demand..
ORIGINAL: valrond
BftB has 27 missions, wouldn't it be better for the business to release the game with 13 missions at 50€/$ and 2 expansions of 7 missions with some AI and UI updates for 20€ each?.
Ah the Paradox strategy. There are pepole who don't like that strategy as they seem to think that important fixes are included in those expansions which should be part of the original in the first place (a patch that is not free). It does give the developer some money to work with but consumers think it's unfair since they think Paradox is releasing substandard software initially.
Matrix strategy is completely different as they release the whole game but makes it more painful to the developer. Prices like these cannot be avoided due to certain circumstances. But I sure wish they tweaked the business model to make it benefitial to both parties.
Still pointless... It's like going down to your favorite car company with a sign and calling the news media to broadcast your perspective about their pricing. Sure, you get your 15 minutes, but they aren't going to change their price because you are complaining about it. Especially if other people are buying their cars.
What affects price. Perceived value, quality and demand.
This game is in demand, it has perceived value and great quality. It is a BMW, Lexus, Rolls Royce, Mercedes, etc. You don't go to a BMW dealer and complain about price. They'll laugh you out of the dealership.
I'm kind of laughing here that this thread is still alive.
I'm not sure what country you live in but in the US buying a car is one big price negotiation, they won't "laugh you out of the dealer" unless you are being completely ridiculous.. wanting to pay 40-50 dollars for a video game instead of 80 is not the same as offering 10K dollars for a 50K car. People complain about the price all day long difference is the car dealer will cut you a deal because you will go somewhere else... here they got you by the nuts because you want something only they can sell, so that is why they are jacking up the price and saying PAY IT OR FUCK OFF. There can really be no demand for the game without supply... with digital downloads supply would be unlimited.. the only "demand" for the game is that you want it... higher price = lower demand..
+1 for billyjj he wins the world cup of reasoning. [:D]
Also let's just do some math here. We'll make it real easy. Let's just say they had 1000 loyal customers willing and ready to pay $60 for this game that comes to 60000 they could have made. But, due to the high price they lost half of their loyal customer base (based on pricing threads in several forums this isn't far from the truth) so they got 500 of their loyal customers to pay $80 for this game and that comes to 40000 so I really don't see how this marketing strategy is going to pay off for them. To just break EVEN to the 60000 they would have to get 750 of their loyal customers out of 1000 to buy it and that ain't happening. Not to mention they pissed off 250 to 500 loyal customers by pricing out of their range. That's going to effect future sales of other games down the line as those customers turn away from Matrixgames for other more reasonable sources like Paradox or Strategy First or Shrapnel or HPS or Battlefront.
Just some food for thought that breaking even point is a long ways off.
ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns...
so I really don't see how this marketing strategy is going to pay off for them.
Start here MajFrankBurns. Let me know if you need more help.
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