US Recon Estabs

[TMO]

Dear All at Panther and Matrix

Congratulations on a very slick (I've only had it a couple of hours) new addition!! Really enjoying being able to get vehicle and weapon descriptions so easily. I've just opened the tutorial and am looking at some of the US units. I'm puzzled by a couple of things about A Tr 25 Cav Rec Sq - the number of small arms listed is just three (one each M1 rifle, M1 carbine and one SMG. According to TO&E 2-27 (July 1943) its establishment is 93xM1 carbines, 26xM1 rifle and 30xSMG. Likewise the number of jeeps and 60mm mortars are smaller than the establishment figures. My question is, are these lower numbers a question of the fact that in the game this unit is not at full strength, is it due to the fact that although a driver was issued with a SMG in the game he's not modelled as using it or is it an oversight (or a combination of all three)?

http://www.militaryresearch.org/2-27%2015Jul43.pdf

A second question is that the number of 37mm rds seems very high - 148 per M8. I haven't had a chance to do much delving into this but a quick look at Wikipedia (yes, I know!) suggest 80 rds or less.

I have to say that my first impression, on the whole, is that you have done an extremely impressive job!

Regards

Tim

[final_drive]

Dear Tim,
 
Thanks. Yes, you are right, both are glitches: firstly, the numbers of the small arms must have not been filled out when the Cav Tp Estab was built. Secondly, the way the Estabs data model works, (1.) it is possible for a gun to be used in different vehicles, but (2.) ammo loads are values relevant to the gun. So 'copying' a gun along with all its stats 'into' another vehicle is very easy, but one has to take into consideration that the ammo loads are of course not necessarily similar in both vehicles: we have tried to avoid this, but in this case the gun for the M3 Stuart was apparently still also being used for the M8 Armored Car.
 
We'll note these down for correction. In the meantime, there's now the Estab Editor. [:)]
 
Cheers

[TMO]

Final Drive

I haven't read the manuals yet, but how many drivers/gunners etc are taken out of the equation when it comes to working out how many rifles, smgs etc are still effective within a unit ? What do you think it should be for A Tr 25 Cav Rec Sq?

Regards

Tim

[final_drive]

Tim,

Various people have worked on (various parts of) the Estabs at various times. We've done efforts like you describe, starting from TOEs for unit estabs, substracting values (vehicles, drivers, messengers etc.) from them and adding these to their respective HQ, Base and/or support platoon(s) etc. But to work out a complete set of comprehensive conclusive rationales for this is nearly impossible given the quantity of and variation in units. And then once these Estabs are being used in a Scenario and set at a randomized unit strength percentage, decreasing both personnel and equipment accordingly, one quickly realises - however painstakenly the effort on the Estab level might have been started -, it can only be as much: without exact historic nominal unit strength data (and, except in some very rare cases, how to find these figures at a reasonable investment on company level, let alone broken down according to the same rationale as used for the game engine?) this can only be an approximisation. Next to that other factors, either from real life (such as national differences in doctrine), or in relation to the game engine (like how it handles mount- and dismount routines) add to the fact that calculating Unit Estabs and derived scenario unit strengths can never fully become a 'rocket science', although the starting point for development has always been the TOE or KStN.

Short answer for the concrete example: taking out the drivers and gunners personal weapons makes sense.

[TMO]

Final Drive
 
Thanks for your reply. Starting to have a look at the Estabs Editor. Have come across something odd - if you take a look at the Bren LMG none of the Fire Type boxes are checked in the Performance tab.
 
Regards
 
Tim

[final_drive]

Tim,

Thanks. Jotted down!

[TMO]

Something  very odd - if you take the recon unit I was refering to earlier and add one rifle or carbine, the .30 calibre ammo count goes up by 206 rather than (what I suspect to be correct) 60. If you add three rifles or carbines it goes up by 197 per weapon; for an extra 35 the increase is 128 per weapon. Adding six SMGs, the increase is the correct amount of 180 per weapon. Can anyone throw any light on this please?

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

Now I'm very confused. Just modified the M8 unit in the tutorial by cloning the .30 cal M1919A4 MMG (then setting this to zero) and replacing it with a modified version (.30 cal M1919A5 MG - M8, 1500 rds) which I think to be a more accurate representation of the vehicle. Despite the new weapon having a lower ammo allocation (2000 down to 1500) the overall .30 allocation for the unit has increased from 36,403 rds to 42,420. I'd have expected it to fall by 6,500 rds.
 
Regards
 
Tim

[TMO]

Just substituted the original gun (.30 cal M1919A4 MMG - 2,000 rds) and the number of 0.30 rds is back to 36,403.

Regards

Tim

[TMO]

As another experiment I've just removed all 0.50 cal guns from all 12 Shermans in B Coy 35 Tank Bn which should also remove all 0.50 cal rds. However instead of zero there are 5802 rds left. Cloned the 0.50 M2 HB - veh weapon and modified it as 0.50 M2 HB - M4 with just 300 rds and issued the Shermans with this. The total of 0.50 cal rds for the unit now stands at 6769 (or 564 rds per gun). Double clicking on the weapon and looking at the performance tab clearly shows Std load as 300. If someone could explain what's going on I'd be very grateful.
 
Regards
 
Tim 

[final_drive]

Tim,
We've taken notice of your observations.
Dave,
Could you have a look at this (when you have a moment)?

[TMO]

Thanks Final Drive
 
Regards
 
Tim

[TMO]

Just had a look at 3RTR HQ (29 Armrd Bgde) in the 'Dinant - Do or Die scenario'.  The lone Sherman Firefly in the HQ , if at full strength, should have 35 rds HE and 35 rds AP since it starts with around 100% personel and equipment.  Instead it is allocated 25 rds HE and 25 rds AP. Does this mean that it is starting the scenario at full strength but with a low ammo load?

Regards

Tim

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Hi TMO,

When you're curious about something like this, you may find more immediate answers by opening the scenario in the scenario-maker utility:

[TMO]

Thanks for your help PoE. After opening the scenario editor things become a lot more clearer.

Regards

Tim