1950s US/Soviet Mod Data

[BletchleyGeek]

Loads and works fine under 261 (the upcoming final patch), dhole.

Just played the first hour of the scenario, so I can't say much about how the forces play out, but I got a good feeling [:)]

[Werezak]

Sweet! I'm also glad to get a second opinion, even if its just a quick glance.

I've discovered some nice T/O&Es at the Combined Arms Research Library Digital Library for US Infantry battalion, regiment and divisions in the early 1950s. This will definitely help me out the american forces, which until now have been mostly copies of the default ones.

[Tophat1815]

Whats the soviet T/O&E look like? Glad you are trying to tackle this monster.

So are you envisioning NATO(basically US forces)using airborne troops to grab an airfield and fly in troops to Hungary? Or violate Austrian neutrality and make an armored dash into Hungary? Remember its 56' and the French and British have dreams of acquiring certain canal concessions in Egypt. T-54's vs M-48's sounds interesting.

[Perturabo]

I like this project.

[Werezak]

I'm basing the Soviet T/O&E primarily off of the orbats over at Armoured Acorn, as they're the most comprehensive source of data that I have been able to find for this time period so far. Then for numbers on personnel and basic infantry equipment (rifles, etc) I have had to stitch together from many disparate sources and then fill in the remaining holes with guesswork.

As for the scenario concerns, they just seem so far down the road right now, I don't feel inclined to worry about them. I'm really aiming more for "ballpark" historical accuracy with this project anyways. Putting togther estabs is a massive amount of research work. I think I already have a new found respect for the default db, it is really impressive once you've had a taste of trying to make one yourself. Right now my goal is to get several different types of divisions modeled in the game for each side, and have things behave in the game as you'd reasonably expect them to. I also want to include some "building blocks" scenarios to help people (including myself) put together anything they might fancy using the mod.

[Werezak]

[Edit: Moved to its own thread.]

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: dholedays

As for the scenario concerns, they just seem so far down the road right now, I don't feel inclined to worry about them. I'm really aiming more for "ballpark" historical accuracy with this project anyways. Putting togther estabs is a massive amount of research work. I think I already have a new found respect for the default db, it is really impressive once you've had a taste of trying to make one yourself. Right now my goal is to get several different types of divisions modeled in the game for each side, and have things behave in the game as you'd reasonably expect them to. I also want to include some "building blocks" scenarios to help people (including myself) put together anything they might fancy using the mod.

Excellent approach. I would even limit your initial effort to say just one division type per side. Then try it out on an existing map and see how it plays. It's always bets to try a little, test a little.

[Werezak]

I've been updating the estab, added lots of new stuff. I've added the download link to the front of the first post so it is easier to find. In the .zip file I've included a scenario file showing most of the forces I have completed so far (the scenario itself is empty, you have to open it up with the editor to see the OOB).

Also I've been updating the basic US infantry forces, they should reflect the 1950s cold war period much better now.

[BletchleyGeek]

Nice, I see you've starting adding AFVs.

By the way, I found this map of the Austrian-Hungarian frontier, which you might find interesting [:)]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/west ... nl33-3.jpg

It's 1:250,000 but I think it will be fine, if you can supplement it with aerial images of the time to determine vegetation with more detail.

You can reach the AMS Western Europe collection here

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/western_europe/

For some reason, the maps covering Western Germany (or most of it) aren't available.

[Werezak]

That's a pretty nice collection of maps there!

Also I have finally completed a full division for each side! (details at the top of the thread)

[Werezak]

Also there is a new sample scenario for people to try. It is a 4 day scenario with a Soviet Strelkovaya Division attempting to secure a river crossing from a US Infantry Division.

I'm probably not going to be working on the mod as much for the next while, since I have a new job. I will still work on it periodically though. New additions should be faster though since a lot of the groundwork is done. I think my next goal will be to add Armoured Divisions.

Anyways, enjoy!

[Werezak]

So as for back story, I've been thinking of a situation where the Hungarian revolution is much less of a violent uprising, in that most of the Hungarian government and military end up concurring with the sentiment of the demonstrators and oust Mátyás Rákosi and the ÁVH in a mostly bloodless way, and the new government is recognized by the west. Hungary then decides to withdraw from the WP and declare itself neutral. The Soviet Union, already having conceded troop reduction agreements to Poland as a result of "Polish October," becomes paranoid that it's control over the eastern bloc is slipping away and invades Hungary. Since Hungary has officially declared it's neutrality as a sovereign nation, NATO intervenes, and an international crisis ensues.

So my intention for the mod is to have NATO vs. the Soviet Union, with Hungary allied with NATO. I still haven't firmly decided on a name. I like BG's "Showdown on the Danube," though I was also thinking "Conflict on the Danube" had a nicer acronym, though it doesn't sound nearly as snazzy lol.

As for developing the mod estab, I think my next goal will be to get Tank/Armored divisions in. I also will eventually want to put in Hungarian OOBs but that will come much later down the road.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: dholedays

So as for back story, I've been thinking of a situation where the Hungarian revolution is much less of a violent uprising, in that most of the Hungarian government and military end up concurring with the sentiment of the demonstrators and oust Mátyás Rákosi and the ÁVH in a mostly bloodless way, and the new government is recognized by the west. Hungary then decides to withdraw from the WP and declare itself neutral. The Soviet Union, already having conceded troop reduction agreements to Poland as a result of "Polish October," becomes paranoid that it's control over the eastern bloc is slipping away and invades Hungary. Since Hungary has officially declared it's neutrality as a sovereign nation, NATO intervenes, and an international crisis ensues.

So my intention for the mod is to have NATO vs. the Soviet Union, with Hungary allied with NATO. I still haven't firmly decided on a name. I like BG's "Showdown on the Danube," though I was also thinking "Conflict on the Danube" had a nicer acronym, though it doesn't sound nearly as snazzy lol.

As for developing the mod estab, I think my next goal will be to get Tank/Armored divisions in. I also will eventually want to put in Hungarian OOBs but that will come much later down the road.

Plausible strategic situation except given Hungary's desire for independence from Soviet influence at that time.

NATO intervention is problematic because Hungary is land locked from the NATO Bloc in 1956.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: dholedays


PzShreck -> B-10 RR

I'm not sure how justified some of these are, but it gets the job done I guess.

The B-10 RR was a Soviet 82 mm smoothbore recoilless rifle (hence "RR") that had been introduced in 1954, and which served as a dual purpose weapon.
It could fire HEAT rounds (with relatively large wing stabilizers) with a muzzle velocity of 322 meters/second, AND it could also fire HE frag grenades in indirect fire mode (pretty much like a mortar) with a max range of 4500 meters.

The East German Army [NVA] introduced it with the designation RG-82 (R = "rückstoßfrei" =recoilless, G = "Geschütz" =gun).

In turn, the Panzerschreck had a really low muzzle velocity, its grenade had to exit and travel 2 meters until it actually reached its max velocity of 105 meters per second, and its (halfway reliable) max. range was ~180 meters (where some German/Swiss sources say 400 meters, based on training results using Panzerschreck derivates produced after the war and used in the Swiss Army, IIRC). Also, the Panzerschreck's grenades just had little fins, no wing stabilizers like the B-10 rounds.

So, in case you're using the estab data of the Panzerschreck for the B-10, then you won't do the RR justice.
I'd advise to use the German 7.5 cm Leichtgeschütz 40 ("light gun"), which should be in the COTA estabs, since that's a recoilless rifle/gun, and adjust its values accordingly.

EDIT: With that solution, there will be no indirect fire mode, I guess, unless the lG 40 underwent the same change as the le.IG ("light infantry gun") guns, which Dave made after a discussion about the IGs dual purpose capabilities.
The IG guns were actually triple purpose guns: indirect fire [main purpose] with HE, direct fire with HE and antitank-role (the production of overcalibre AT hollow-charge rounds for the le.IG.18 started around 1940, already, the guns' AT capabilities turned out to save the day in North Africa quite some times).

I remember that I had a discussion with Dave about the recoilless lG 40 guns, back then, but I can't remember whether the gun actually made it into the estab or not.
I think he (or one of the Panther bunnies) argued that the gun shipment didn't make it to Crete, due to the convoy being attacked by the Royal Navy (and returning to port), or something like that.

Interestingly, there are pictures showing 75mm lG 40 guns in action .... on Crete [:D] :

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Bil ... LG42-2.jpg

Anyway, the German 75mm lG 40's rounds used 75mm field gun HE rounds (weight: 5.8 kg) and HEAT rounds, too. With HE rounds, the lG 40 had a range of 6500 meters. Muzzle velocity: 345 m/sec.
Weight of the gun: 270 kg for the mountain division-version, 175 kg for the Fallschirmjäger-version.

The effective AT-range of the B-10 was ~400 meters (107mm B-11 RR = 450 meters) and the max range in HE frag-mode 4500 meters (107mm B-11 RR = 6650 meters). The best AT round could penetrate 240 mm of armor.

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi ... coilless=0

The AT round of the B-10 RR had a weight of 3.87 kg, 4.11 kg and 4.9 kg (3 types), the 2 different types of HE frag rounds a weight of 4.9 kg, each.

Talking about recoilless rifles ... check this out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespa_150_TAP

Quite funny looking thing , hehe.

[GoodGuy]

edit: i hit the quote button instead of the EDIT button, so pls see edits above.