WIP New Map and Scenario

[Chief Rudiger]

Here's a look at a map i'm making of the battle of Merdjayoun, during the Syria-Lebanon campaign against the Vichy French in 1941. The French hold the towns with static low quality garrisons to begin with but are strong in artillery and are well dug in. Early reinforcements should prevent the weak Australian attackers from exiting North off the map and later reinforcements, including a Bn of Foriegn Legion will retake lost ground.

The scenario ends immediately if the Australians exit two Bns to the North East within the first days but if thwarted, as was the case, he can exit another force to the NW and score points. This will not terminate the scenario and will in fact weaken his force to the point that he cannot resist the French counter attack. Reinforcements will arrive piecemeal to prevent any advance into Palestine, to the South, and to maintain communications with the force to the NW.

Other battles i hope to recreate are the swinging battle of Jezzine, to the NW of this map, and the set piece attack on the River Damour, on the coast. Smaller scenarios might include the French counter attack on Kunietra, where the French wiped out a British Bn, or Mezze, near Damascus, where an Indian Bde was left unsupported and overrun, and afterwards reduced to one composite Bn!

I will post a WiP scenario later this week and hopefully get some advice on tweaking the AI objectives.

UPDATED - Here is the link to the WiP scenario: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UGZOEB70

VERSION 2 - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YRQARS5Z

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Certainly looks and sounds interesting.

When you're wrapping things up, don't forget to include a narrative for your scenarios.

It'll help players understand how it all came to pass.

[tyrspawn]

ooo French Foreign Legion!

[Chief Rudiger]

Don't get excited, all the Legion units are are standard French infantry but with higher stats!

[simovitch]

You guys are doing a fantastic job with these scenarios. Just so you know, Unless something comes up there are no changes to the BFTBestab file from what was released in Patch #1.

Keep up the good work.

[Chief Rudiger]

This scenario is still a WiP and should probably be split over two scenarios. One, where the allies spend several days bringing up sufficient strength to take Merdjayoun and try to press North towards the exit objective, and a second where a single Battalion of dispersed infantry and some divisional troops are left to guard the LOC and try to check a French counterattack from driving South into Palestine. There should then follow a long battle to retake Merdjayoun, now held by Legionnaire as well, with troops recalled from the NW and with Pioneers and a British Battalion from the South.

This is condensed into a 4 days battle as a proof of concept piece with the French counter attack Bde arriving on D2, at the same time but closer to the action than the Australian Divisional troops.

The French R35 should be superior to the Australian and British Vickers Lt tks, but the Australians infantry are armed with Boys ATk Rifle while the French only have AT Platoons attached to their Bns, their infantry are therefore perhaps more vulnerable to tank attacks.

I'm unsure about the values for tank armour and weapon penetration. The Boyes ATk rifle shouldn't be able to penetrate the front armour of an R35 but I'm not sure about the Vickers Lt Tank's .5 cal MG. I'm not sure how the engine handles these fights at short range where damage to tracks and vision blocks should probably cause mobility and mission kills, and whether killer flanking shots can happen when units are virtually on top of each other. I plan to tinker with the map terrain values so tanks travel by the roads and tracks, which really represent donkey paths, forcing them to present their flanks and restricting their effectiveness to routing shaken troops and other head on shock actions along the main road.

The initial French forces are well fortified, but have limited Arty ammunition until D2 and their guns are immobile (more to prevent them wandering and so increase thier initial lethality to infnatry in soft hats in the open). The Australians on the other hand have 25pdr support. These are attached to Bns at the start to encourage their immediate use by the Bn AI on D1 but should probably be move to Bde command for this condensed scenario so the AI can handle them better. I am still researching the scale of artillery on each side. The australians should certainly not be able to pass Col's ridge without getting a stonking. I've emblaced more stationary 75's out of range of most of the early fighting so that the Aussies can't just march off the map.

I split the ammo for each weapon up so a .303 SMLE uses different ammo to a Bren or Vickers gun. This means a unit whose been shooting at enemies at long range might run out of Vicker ammo but not be defensless should it be rushed. No two French weapons share the same ammo calibres so this is not a problem for them.

I know there's a lot of rough edges but comments would be appreciated, especially on AI objectives, and vehicle and weapon estabs. Some known bugs are that the mobile troops guarding Qleaa/Khirbe want to move to Khiam. I thought about adding some fortress terrain in Qleaa/Khirbe to make it more appealing but thought it looked a bit odd.

Also, the Vichy static artillery doesn't engage the enemu until they are very close. If the work as they were supposed to then they should prevent the Australians easily carrying both Khiam or Khirbe/Qleaa at the start.

The AI also doesn't want to counter attack on D2 enough i feel. Maybe it doesn't think it is strong enough, i don't know.

Also, the Australian mortar platoons don't move up within range of the attack location often enough.

Link to Zipped Game Files: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UGZOEB70

Please note: You will need to create an images file in your Estabs folder called "COTAtestestab_Images"

[FredSanford3]

The megaupload link says "file temporarily unavailable". Making revisions?

[Chief Rudiger]

Nope, works for me. If it still doesn't work for you I can email the files.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

The megaupload link says "file temporarily unavailable".

For the uninitiated, "Megaupload" just does this sometimes. So, it may not be the perfect place to store your files for download by others. Then again, it's REALLY easy to use, and the price is right. [;)]

[Chief Rudiger]

10 downloads, no comments? Even bad ones?

[Arjuna]

Chief,

Would you like me to ask Matrix if they would host it? If so, please email a copy to me ( dave[at]panthergames[dot]com ).

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

10 downloads, no comments? Even bad ones?

Hiya Chief Rudiger,

Don't be concerned. It takes a sitting or two to form an intelligent opinion regarding these scenarios.

Initial observations....

-Super concept
-Nicely researched and executed map and OOB
-The victory conditions seem somewhat askew; more on this in a moment.
-There's a problem with your values for "minor road" movement. For motorized units, it's only 3. This can be amended in the mapmaker utility.
-A very, very minor item...you've assigned an armoured cavalry icon to some Allied carrier units. Those should probably be armoured infantry, oui?

About the victory conditions...

In both games, I decided to bypass the forward VP and go straight for the exits under cover of darkness. This actually worked quite well, although I had to flog my diggers to keep them moving. However, just before dawn, the game ended in a draw when two or three friendlies exited the center-most exit point. This will need some massaging. [:)]

Now let me contradict myself...

It may take more than a sitting or two to form an intelligent opinion of these scenarios! [;)]

Edit: For posterity's sake, the default "minor road" values are wrong (as they were in the CotA MM/editor).

[Chief Rudiger]

@Arjuna

Maybe when i'm happier the scenario, thanks!

@PoE

Thanks for your comments

I forgot about that value, you're right. I've changed all the road movement values and downgraded some of the minor roads to tracks to funnel the attackers into Khirbe/Khiam.

Re Carriers: Do you means the Aus Div Cav Sqdns or the Inf Bn Carrier platoons in unused in the estab? I gave the Cav Sqdns the same icon as they had in COTA. and decided not to represent the carrier platoons as discrete units as they would impede the movement of the whole formation over rough terrian (i.e. the map!).

Re Victory Conditions: I think i've tried to cram too much into one scenario and by taking out the exit objectives the attacking AI doesn't simply try to bypass the French to get to the exit. The Exit NE to win or NW if you fail sounded nice on paper but i don't think it translates into a workable game.

I suppose i could set up a string if "secure" objectives on the main road as well as the exit objectives to make the AI cover its LOC to the exitted troops?

Are the initial objectives too easy for the Aus player? He should be tied up "in the wire" at Khirbe/Khiam for long enough for a meeting engagement to take place at Col's Ridge with the French reinforcements. As a measure of the positions strength the actuall set piece attack on Khirbe was supported by two Field Arty Regt, so double what a Brigade should have. Also, in my OOB i gave each Bn a Tp of 25pdrs, as per the Bde's original Op Istruction. This was upped to a Bty each nearer D-Day, and the troops told to wear their tin hats from the beginning - so perhaps it wasn't expected to be a walkover at all levels!

Another intesting observation is that it is repeatadly stated in the War Diaries that "Germans HAVE landed at Rayaak. Expect Motorised Counter Attack". I will research some kind of Luftlande'd force for a "Favour Axis" reinforcement schedule "what-if"?


Gameplay: How do you find the French artillery? As the French my 75's do a hit or miss job of halting the Australians at Khiam/Khirbe but as the Australians I don't notice them as much, I wonder if the AI is doing funny things with them. By downgrading roads i think i've slowed each unit, and canalised them onto certain routes, so maybe this is why i think Arty is more effective.

How does the AI handle the map/objectives? I set the VP level for defending Col's Ridge pretty high, for the French, but gave some points for resecuring Merdjayoun. This was to encourage them to hold the Ridge as a primary objective but to make it worth counter attacking if able. I'm not sure if the VP levels encourage this.

AArm/Armour Values: Do these work right? I've never seem a tank or Armd car knocked out in any plays!

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

Re Carriers: Do you means the Aus Div Cav Sqdns or the Inf Bn Carrier platoons in unused in the estab? I gave the Cav Sqdns the same icon as they had in COTA. and decided not to represent the carrier platoons as discrete units as they would impede the movement of the whole formation over rough terrian (i.e. the map!).

Because they're two units that aren't used in the scenario, it probably doesn't matter. However, I thought that you included the carrier platoons because you might use them in another scenario. The three Mk VI squadrons are labeled correctly (as armoured cavalry/light tanks).

Re Victory Conditions: I think i've tried to cram too much into one scenario and by taking out the exit objectives the attacking AI doesn't simply try to bypass the French to get to the exit. The Exit NE to win or NW if you fail sounded nice on paper but i don't think it translates into a workable game.

I suppose i could set up a string if "secure" objectives on the main road as well as the exit objectives to make the AI cover its LOC to the exitted troops?

What you might want to consider is turning things off/on. You can dictate a meeting action by setting the secure and/or defend AP objectives in the middle of the map which can still be deactivated when you want the fighting to transition to another part of the map. Likewise, the exit AP can be turned on well after the game begins.

Are the initial objectives too easy for the Aus player? He should be tied up "in the wire" at Khirbe/Khiam for long enough for a meeting engagement to take place at Col's Ridge with the French reinforcements. As a measure of the positions strength the actuall set piece attack on Khirbe was supported by two Field Arty Regt, so double what a Brigade should have. Also, in my OOB i gave each Bn a Tp of 25pdrs, as per the Bde's original Op Istruction. This was upped to a Bty each nearer D-Day, and the troops told to wear their tin hats from the beginning - so perhaps it wasn't expected to be a walkover at all levels!

I have to admit that I've, thus far, only played as the Allies. And as I've stated, I've infiltrated the Axis positions under cover of darkness. What's obvious is that the Vichy position is greatly weakened because its forces are so dispersed.

Another intesting observation is that it is repeatadly stated in the War Diaries that "Germans HAVE landed at Rayaak. Expect Motorised Counter Attack". I will research some kind of Luftlande'd force for a "Favour Axis" reinforcement schedule "what-if"?

The Luftwaffe intervention sounds like fun. In that same vane, you might consider including a squadron of cruiser tanks as a variant for the Allies.

Gameplay: How do you find the French artillery? As the French my 75's do a hit or miss job of halting the Australians at Khiam/Khirbe but as the Australians I don't notice them as much, I wonder if the AI is doing funny things with them. By downgrading roads i think i've slowed each unit, and canalised them onto certain routes, so maybe this is why i think Arty is more effective.

How does the AI handle the map/objectives? I set the VP level for defending Col's Ridge pretty high, for the French, but gave some points for resecuring Merdjayoun. This was to encourage them to hold the Ridge as a primary objective but to make it worth counter attacking if able. I'm not sure if the VP levels encourage this.

AArm/Armour Values: Do these work right? I've never seem a tank or Armd car knocked out in any plays!

Those are too tough for me to determine as yet.

The Vichy artillery is in a spot because they end up suppressed by counter-battery and mortar fire, while being assaulted by the infantry. This, again, is exacerbated by the extent to which they are dispersed. If they are going to be more effective, then they will have to be supported by other arms.

At this point in my career, I lean very heavily on the discreet game values that the developer has assigned to weapons/vehicles/units. I deviate from their values only when something seems obviously wrong, or I have to cut an item out of whole cloth, create it from scratch. The items in the estab editor aren't perfect, but they are certainly where I want to start. Put another way, when in doubt, I'm going to adopt the values that Panther Games suggests that I use.

Oh, and I do believe that I've seen the Allied light tanks take casualties. They certainly do retreat a lot when under fire.

[gabeeg]

...newb question...can someone post directions on which files go where please?  (i.e. xxx.cop and xxx.cop.cached go in Maps folder, xxx.coe goes in estabs....etc.).  Thanks!

[Chief Rudiger]

Thats it. There's a scenario file that should go in the scenario folder too. Just look for the matching file extensions.

I'll be uploading a revised version this weekend. I'm going to play around with multiple AI defend objectives for the French, and multiple Secure objectives for the Allies, to centre the fighting on the MSR on the Metulla/Merdjayoun Rd. I'm thinking a line of Secure objective on the MSR for the Allies, getting worth Less as they go North, and a line of Defend objectives for the French which get worth more as they go North, towards Col's Ridge. I hope this will encourage the Allied AI secure the MSR as it goes, realistically, and encourage the French AI to give up ground. I will set the scenario start time closer to dawn and position the Allied attackers closer to their objectives, like in the Hofen Ho-Down scenario to encourage the AI to use the troops on the spot to attack the obvious objectives.

I'm also going to change alot of the roads to tracks, visibly, and add some blown bridges, to confine movement to the vicinity of the MSR. I'm going to beef up the static garrisons, especially the front line ones, to include ATk, HMG and Mortars, as was historically the case, so that the Allies can't bypass them so easily. I have moved Ft Khiam so that it has a better FOV over the ground between it and Khirbe/Qleaa, to stop the Allies flanking that position to go straight to Merdjayoun. The arrival of the second Arty Regt will be more significant now.

Has anyone else noticed both the French AI and Australian AI massing troops at Khiam? I think i've set the VP points too high for it in the version i uploaded, but even when i think i've sorted it I still find both AI's sticking troops there like its the most important place on Earth! Is this just me?

@Arjuna,

Is there a devmode/cheat that allows you full intel all the time? So i can see what the AI is doing.

[Chief Rudiger]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Because they're two units that aren't used in the scenario, it probably doesn't matter. However, I thought that you included the carrier platoons because you might use them in another scenario. The three Mk VI squadrons are labeled correctly (as armoured cavalry/light tanks).


---------I took them out thinking the vehicles would stop the infantry Bn as a whole from accessing some areas/taking some routes. They mainly seem to have been used as Arty OP taxi's/cook house guards anyway. Some captured French tks were used as armoured OPs.

What you might want to consider is turning things off/on. You can dictate a meeting action by setting the secure and/or defend AP objectives in the middle of the map which can still be deactivated when you want the fighting to transition to another part of the map. Likewise, the exit AP can be turned on well after the game begins.

-------------Its the balancing of VPs that gets me. I am also scared of changing the goal posts too many times for the AI to deal with. I remember playing the COTA tutorial and watchin the German AI redeploy EVERYTHING when i built a new bridge and then again, an hour later, when i built another one, abandonning his prepared positions!

I have to admit that I've, thus far, only played as the Allies. And as I've stated, I've infiltrated the Axis positions under cover of darkness. What's obvious is that the Vichy position is greatly weakened because its forces are so dispersed.

------------------I'll change the scenario start time so that you'll have to wait to night D1 before putting in a concentrated attack. I am worried that the AI will leave everything in the shop window, so to speak, and have his units too fatigued and attrited (is that a word?) to do anything with after the first abortive days work.

The Luftwaffe intervention sounds like fun. In that same vane, you might consider including a squadron of cruiser tanks as a variant for the Allies.

-----------------The ME was so short of tanks i think at the time that one of the Australian Div Cav Regt had to equip itself with Ex-Egyptian Vickers Lt Tks if its CO wanted it to get in on the action, very much like Col H Jones pushing to get HIS Para Bn sent to the Falklands!

At this point in my career, I lean very heavily on the discreet game values that the developer has assigned to weapons/vehicles/units. I deviate from their values only when something seems obviously wrong, or I have to cut an item out of whole cloth, create it from scratch. The items in the estab editor aren't perfect, but they are certainly where I want to start. Put another way, when in doubt, I'm going to adopt the values that Panther Games suggests that I use.

----------------------I think you may be right. People might laugh but i'd like to see the "dice"rolls that go on for each event, to really know whats going on!

Oh, and I do believe that I've seen the Allied light tanks take casualties. They certainly do retreat a lot when under fire.

-----------------------But have you ever seen one KO'd? All i've seen is casualties from rout/surrendering!

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

Its the balancing of VPs that gets me. I am also scared of changing the goal posts too many times for the AI to deal with. I remember playing the COTA tutorial and watchin the German AI redeploy EVERYTHING when i built a new bridge and then again, an hour later, when i built another one, abandonning his prepared positions!

Establishing appropriate point values for the AP is still the hardest job that I face when I work a scenario up. I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit it, but I pretty much resort to trial and error. I start out with some values that are little more than "guestimation," and then adjust them up or down based on playing the scenario. I don't know what kind of calculus that the developer uses to establish their AP values, and I AS YET HAVE NO IDEA OF HOW TO PROPERLY FIGURE IN LOSSES as a component of who wins and loses.

I'll change the scenario start time so that you'll have to wait to night D1 before putting in a concentrated attack. I am worried that the AI will leave everything in the shop window, so to speak, and have his units too fatigued and attrited (is that a word?) to do anything with after the first abortive days work.

I've played the Axis four times since my last post. On the whole, I found it more interesting than playing the Allies. I tried several different strategies, all of which involved concentrating the Axis mobile force at different locations between the Allies and the exit points. Too far forward, the Axis gets whacked. Too far back, and the secure/defend locations are occupied too quickly by the Allies. In only one case did the Allies go for the exits (the way that I did when playing that side). And in that instance, they headed for the Western-most exit that is activated AFTER those to the east.

One thing that I found intriguing was the difficulty that the Allies had with the Axis garrison/fortress companies on the map. They can be quite a headache to the Allied advance, particularly if the French deploy their initial group of mobile forces to defend the 75mm units in the middle of the map (which in turn support the garrison units). I believe that you've expressed concern about the ability of those garrison units to delay the Allies. It may be, however, that the AI-Allies will be delayed "if they have a mind to," which is to say that a human or AI-player may bypass the Axis positions as a matter of choice. But, if Allies do pause to assault the garrisons, their advance will face significant delay.

People might laugh but i'd like to see the "dice"rolls that go on for each event, to really know whats going on!

Me too. But, I'd settle for a (much) more thorough AAR and battle stats. I can't think of a more desirable feature for future releases.

But have you ever seen one KO'd? All i've seen is casualties from rout/surrendering!

I've definitely seen friendly units take tank losses from enemy anti-tank fire, although I suspect that most of that experienced by Axis forces is from anti-tank rifles. That said, I don't recall with any certaintly having seen an armoured unit "die." IIRC, they tend to surrender, instead.

BTW, regardless of what appears to go on in the scenario, the result is nearly always a draw, the once exception being my last play as the Axis. In that one, I thought that I had thoroughly whupped the Allies, but I got a marginal defeat. Ah, the evil-genius of Chief Rudiger! [;)]

[Chief Rudiger]

I've updated many aspects of the scenario but a bug has cropped up. Whichever side you play the AI just groups his moveable forces into a big formation at their respective "table edge" as if its going to launch a Bde size attack, but just doesn't move them. Launching a suicide spoiling attack seems to "unlock" them so i thought "maybe the AI doesn't know i'm here" and so increased the starting intel level for each side.

The Allied AI knows the French hold all the VL's so should move North and the French AI should move its reinforcements to secure the Col'd Ridge posn, that starts off undefended. The French AI only seems secure Col's Ridge with the one company of Algerians that are unlocked at the beginning. After this nadda.

I can't figure out whats causing this behaviour. I thought it might be my changes to terrain values, making certain vehicles bog down the whole formation, so i set them all back to defaults and no joy.

I'm stumped. Arjuna?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Chief Rudiger

I've updated many aspects of the scenario but a bug has cropped up. Whichever side you play the AI just groups his moveable forces into a big formation at their respective "table edge" as if its going to launch a Bde size attack, but just doesn't move them. Launching a suicide spoiling attack seems to "unlock" them so i thought "maybe the AI doesn't know i'm here" and so increased the starting intel level for each side.

The Allied AI knows the French hold all the VL's so should move North and the French AI should move its reinforcements to secure the Col'd Ridge posn, that starts off undefended. The French AI only seems secure Col's Ridge with the one company of Algerians that are unlocked at the beginning. After this nadda.

I can't figure out whats causing this behaviour. I thought it might be my changes to terrain values, making certain vehicles bog down the whole formation, so i set them all back to defaults and no joy.

I'm stumped. Arjuna?

I think that the game AI wants to know more about what's out there in order to react intelligently.

If you want things to start moving to particular locations, you can create false intel reports near objectives and the game should react.

Likewise, you can use AI-only objectives set to a higher-level and that should also prod them into action.

Question for you:

I' growing curious about the apparent vulnerability of the Axis R35 AFV. It seems like its taking hits when no effective Allied AArm is nearby. I mentioned above that I thought that it was the Allied ATR that are getting all the kills. Did you build your own Boys ATR and/or other AArm weapons?