Attack at a Specific Hour

[Johnus]

I'm a newbie with COA so forgive me if I should know this. How does one, is one able to, direct a command to attack at a specific hour ?? A lot of time is spent in the advanced tuturial manual on estimating the delay in getting orders executed.

But what about where you want a unit(s) to attack (or whatever) at dawn the next day and you have more than enough time for your orders to take effect and for the unit(s) to form up, etc.

Can you do this ?? If so, how ??

Thanks.

[emcgman]

Probably check my post just below re: backup plan orders. It's basically the same question as yours, but your question is worded more accurately.

emcgman

[FredSanford3]

That's a buggaboo I have. You have to estimate yourself when the attack will take place by using the orders delay info.

And "starting" time of the attack is also a little fuzzy. The orders delay time given is the time lag needed to start to comply with the given order. In other words, if you have a several Km approach march to your FUP, then you have to guesstimate the time it will take your troops to move to the FUP, dork around at the FUP while they re-org (there's always 1 or 2 slackers that hold up the show), and then make the final assault move. Arriving at a hard "H-Hour" for when the mayhem actually starts is extremely difficult, and generally a headache that I don't even try to worry about, other than trying to get within a couple hours of my intented schedule.

Moral of the story: Don't rely on split-second timing, because you will invariably be wrong. Also, smaller, battalion sized attacks are easier to guess the timing on, if for no other reason than there's fewer units to be those 1 or 2 slackers I mentioned, and the units are generally already close to one another (or they should be- in most cases, if you are scattering subunits of Bn-sized commands you are most likely seriously screwing up). I personally now pretty much avoid higher level attacks due to the excessive orders delay and implementation time lags.

That said, I do believe that I read somewhere that they are contemplating a way to specify a "jump-off" time in future releases.

[Johnus]

Thanks for the responses guys. I think there is room for improvement here.

I know that nothing is simple in war. Things always go wrong, even with the most simple and direct orders. Giving two separate battalions each the order to attack at dawn, is a very, very different thing from a guarantee that they both attack at dawn. Where you have plenty of time, however, you should be able to give that specific order.

Love the system and the game and I'm looking forward to BFTB.

[FredSanford3]

I agree. I think being able to specify a "jump off" time for orders should be possible, but with a substantial additional orders delay. Much more 'hurry up and wait' going on in that case.

[Fred98]

It is somethig that would truely "make" the game.
 
-
 
 

[MarkShot]

Quick points:

(1) Getting a grasp on time and what things take is a large part of the game.

(2) Planning often involves working backwards from I want GOAL @ XX:XX, then I must initiate the following @ YY:YY.

(3) Once you have formed your Task Forces (those groups of units who you will give direct orders to) and they have propagated one set of orders, then the force order delay for the senior unit (the one with the white bar) is accurate. Given that most scenarios run at least a few days and that you are likely to keep your task forces intact, then after the first day, the force delay values should serve as very good planning indicators.

(4) You would think it should not be a big day simply to have a projected time when a hypothetical order will kick off. I agree, but so many things can go wrong. You may have an attack which should kick off in four hours which you can call very accurately given your experience and the force delay. But then, someone spots your units FUPing and calls in some arty ... and it takes an extra 2-4 hours before the attack launches.

(5) This is combat command; not a train simulator --- see above.

I hope that helps.

[Johnus]

MarkShot:

Your points are good ones.

My point is that it should be easy to give the order: "attack at dawn" where there is enough time for all concerned units to prepare for such an attack. The attack does not have to actually happen. (A unit concerned might, never get the order, lose the order, ignore the order or get attacked while forming up, etc.)

The commanding officer should not, however, need to calculate reaction times (again where there is more that enough lead time). He should not have to think: "okay for a dawn attack, I need to give the first battalion the attack order at 10:00 pm, the second battalion at 1:00 am, etc.

(By the way, I never tried train simulator; but I have enjoyed TRAINZ)

[FredSanford3]

For the reasons you stated, obviously a designated H-Hour wouldn't be carved in stone, due to the possibility of interference, etc, but would represent an idealized time that neglects unplanned delays. However, the scheduling of operations is often done in that manner IRL. I wouldn't suggest modifying the game engine to "force" an attack at a particular time, but it would be a planning aid instead, basically replacing the manual timing calculations the player has to do already.

The game engine IMO is geared toward replicating a "Hasty Attack", e.g. telling a unit to go do something (say attack) as soon as possible. Many times though, a Set Piece or Deliberate Attack will be pre-planned, say the day or evening before (or even earlier). It would be nice to be able to tell a brigade to attack (i.e. depart the FUP in assault formation) at 0600 the next morning at say 2100 the evening prior, without having manually calculate the sum of order delay, travel time, and FU time to arrive at some artificial "issue orders time". In reality, this is reflected in wording orders along the lines of "be in position to attack Not Later Than such and such time".

For instance, Eisenhower didn't launch Overlord by thinking "Let's see, I want the troops to hit the beach at 0900 06 June, and it will take about 18 hours to cross the Channel, and another 32.2 hours to load the troops into the transports, and another 16.3 hours to march the troops from their camps to the docks, and still another 14.6 hours to communicate the orders down the chain of command. So I need to tell Monty to go invade France at 2354 on 2 June. I better set my alarm clock. Wouldn't want to miss that." I think they worked out a good bit of that in advance. It's not to say that everbody was doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing at 0900 6 June, some of them were too busy getting killed to comply with their orders. Slackers. (j/k)

[MarkShot]

I had the same problems when I started playing:

(1) Having thing happen at a specific time.

(2) Coordinating the actions of two separate forces.

I had also asked for changes especially regarding #2. It was pointed out to me by others with more historical knowledge that the level of comms, control, and coordination was vastly less than what we are used to today in military operations. (For example, in the real MG operations, the radio gear wasn't working.)

So, I see why you ask for these things. My point is that once you get used to the game play, they aren't show stoppers and especially with the "force delay" tip I gave above, you can get pretty good control over timing if no surprizes occur. I've often been able to have a force move out just 30 minutes after the Sun has set.

{I think what I would most like to have would be a "what if" order tool for all orders. It would work like this: Form a hypothetical force and give it an order. You could then check what delays would be involved in actually executing the order. That would both address your concern and help a lot in planning; especially when new players are involved.}

{The other thing I would like to see is an HCCE, Harpoon Classic Edition, staff order concept. Often while playing you have to remember at specific times to give particular orders to keep everything on schedule. Of course, when things get exciting, you could forget. HCCE's staff order allows you basically enter a reminder from your staff to fire at a specific time into the game. Very nice feature ... for almost any realtime game.}

I tend to regard the attack order in the game to be a planned attack (move1 {travel}, move2 {get into formation}, reorg {FUP}, assault, exploit, defend1 {hold}, defend2 {secure}). When I want a hasty attack, then I simply order a move with max aggression and ROF. Your units will basically take off with poor organization, but shoot it out if they run into light resistance. My COTA AAR was a hasty attack. My HTTR was a deliberate attack.

Have fun!

[Johnus]

Franklin Nimitz:

Ditto.

And isn't there in every old war movie worth its salt, the obligatory "let's synchronize our watches" scene ??

[FredSanford3]

{The other thing I would like to see is an HCCE, Harpoon Classic Edition, staff order concept. Often while playing you have to remember at specific times to give particular orders to keep everything on schedule. Of course, when things get exciting, you could forget. HCCE's staff order allows you basically enter a reminder from your staff to fire at a specific time into the game. Very nice feature ... for almost any realtime game.}

I think that's pretty much what we're asking for, with maybe a "total delay time to implement" calculator tacked on.

Don't get me wrong, to me this is a fairly minor point of gameplay ease. Wargamers tend to be masochistic enough that this isn't a big deal.

IMO, and I know I'm repeating myself from other threads: The #1 improvement to the game engine would be mounted/dismounted & limbered/unlimbered modes for units. I know from previous replies that it's an active topic w/in Panther as well, but is in the 'easier said than done' category. Just kickin' the anthill...

[Crimguy]

Didn't I read somewhere that the Attack at: command was going to be in BTFB?

I also think that the points are valid ones. The current system does not allow units to be coordinated as to time, unless you have them all under the control of one organic superior. One should be allowed to issue orders that would allow for enough time to organize, form up, and wait for a specified time to attack. As it stands now, the units form up and attack once everyone's where they're supposed to be.

[Fred98]

In real life a general wants the attack to start at 6 am he must give the orders by "X" o'clock. Any later and not all of the units will receive the orders.
 
Its the one feature the game's crying out for. It would make the game a classic!
-
 

[Crimguy]

Well, maybe that's what happened at Gallipoli ;-D