Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values

[LarkinVB]

I don't understand a word of you BT chatter

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: gazra
I bet multiplayer team games of this computer game would be extremely challenging and so much fun, no matter whether you were on the winning side or losing side!

Hehe, yep, good old days when we played 2v2 team games. I had the pleasure of playing a couple of games with both Henrik and Kai (the developers), and it was great fun. They're fantastic. I miss those days. Well, except the games against Hetzer the head chopper [:D] (RIP, fellow Jock).

[gazra]

n48: "Try doing an experiment: use a balanced approach in your SP games, say, weaker weapons (a single strong weapon on a chassis and a few weaker ones) or even try using pre-made titans consistently... roleplay a little... you'll see how ToS suddenly becomes much more deep and challenging than before, with an even greater replay value! A totally different game..."

You're quite right, n48. I will probably do the things that you suggested after I have mastered this game and when I replay the game and am seeking a greater challenge. But my problem is that I find it difficult to roleplay at the expense of having more capable Jocks and Titans. I've found some of the enemy Titans in the 'Deep Core' starter campaign (like the 'Ascension III' and the 'Spiritwalker') to be formidable (even against my "super" Jocks and custom-designed Titans!). I find it difficult to roleplay this game when:
1. Around half of the Titans have names that are from 'Mechs in BATTLETECH (in my opinion, it is sacrilege to use classic 'Mech names like the Warhammer, Marauder, Battlemaster, Awesome, and Atlas anywhere else but in BATTLETECH!).
2. Quite a few of the default Titans in v1.2.1 of the game seem to be not optimally designed.
3. The way the game determines the initial attribute values and skill values of new Jock recruits is so unfair! (not including any modifiers due to your Squad Leader's rank and 'Leadership' skill value).
4. Some of the different weapons in this game seem to be better than others.
5. The game allows you to custom design your own Titans.

CrushU: "Generally, I consider shields very much worth it, mostly because while that extra 25 heat from that tesla bolt striking your shields DOES kinda screw your heat up, it's better than 25 damage going into your leg and screwing that up. Heat is easier to fix than armor."

I agree with CrushU. I prefer using shields too. They save you a lot of money when repairing armor. The only cases where you wouldn't want your Titans to have active shields are:
1. You're fighting Titans that don't have Meson Guns or energy weapons.
2. You're fighting Titans that only have GME Rack weapons.
3. You're Titan has overheated and you desperately need to cool it down as fast as possible.
But even in the above cases, active shields provide some protection from exploding Titans. In my experience, heat plays a MUCH more significant role in this game than it does in BATTLETECH, so I can see n48's point of view. It's not fun when your pristine Titan shuts down in the middle of a battle because it has overheated. On the negative side, an active shield increases a Titan's HD (HiDing factor or visibility) by 0.5, making the Titan easier to detect. And shields can overload, which DOUBLES the amount of heat absorbed from the weapon, and renders the shield useless for a while (and then you have to spend yet more time reactivating the shield, which prevents you from attacking during that time). On the other hand, shields reduce the amount of heat received from Flame Throwers and Napalm missiles. Every piece of equipment in this game has its pros and cons. It just boils down to your playing style and what you prefer to use.

SireChaos: "I would say BT is more "ruthless", i.e. deadly."

Reading the manual for this computer game gave me the impression that combat in this computer game seemed more ruthless than in BATTLETECH. However, now that I have actually PLAYED this computer game a bit, I now agree with you, SireChaos, that MechWarriors in BATTLETECH have a much greater chance of dying in battles. A single head shot by an AC/20, Gauss Rifle, or Clan ER PPC will instantly kill a MechWarrior. What was I thinking?

CrushU: "Five CLPLs+TC and 52 Heatsinks on a 3/5 move Clan Assault with full armor"

I only have old editions of the BATTLETECH rule books and Technical Readouts (that date back to 1992 or earlier), so I'm not familiar with the Battle Values of 'Mechs, and I don't know anything about "level 2 rules", "BV2 rules", "double-blind movement", "the BV2 system", or the "Blitzkrieg" and "Fire Moth" and "Ice Ferret" 'Mechs. According to my calculations, CrushU's above 'Mech design would not be able to have full armor (i.e. 19 tons for 304 armor points) - it would be 1 ton short of being able to have full armor.

SireChaos: "And there´s the mech´s weakness... ridiculous rear armor, no rear-facing weapons"

In the 3rd printing of 'The BattleTech Compendium' (1990), an optional rule is that 'Mechs without hand and lower arm actuators are able to flip both arms over during the Reaction Phase rather than perform a torso twist, which then allows any arm-mounted weapons to fire into the rear firing arc. Note that BattleMechs that are constructed without lower arm and hand actuators suffer no weapons fire penalties for lacking these components. Another benefit of a 'Mech having no hand and lower arm actuators is that the 'Mech's cost (in C-Bills) is cheaper. Quite frankly, why a 'Mech would have hand and lower arm actuators in the first place is beyond me!
My version of CrushU's "perfect" 'Mech design has much more sensible armor point allocation, so it wouldn't suffer from that problem, SireChaos.

SireChaos: "Do the rules you use include the ability of energy weapons to set fire to woods?"

Yes, but it is an optional rule in the 3rd printing of 'The BattleTech Cempendium' (1990). Titans of Steel: Warring Suns uses a lot of the rules from BATTLETECH, which is one of the reasons why this computer game is superb.

CrushU: "I play Invasion 3042"

Why is the game called 'Invasion 3042' when the Clans invaded the Inner Sphere in 3049?

SireChaos: "And there´s the mech´s weakness... ridiculous rear armor, no rear-facing weapons, no arm-mounted weapons. If the battlefield has any kind of cover (which they almost invariably have), a reasonably fast enemy (8/12 movement would be great, preferably with jump jets) can get close enough to it to get into its rear as soon as it wins initiative; then, one solid hit will lay open the rear armor and score critical hits. Anyway, I´ve never played double blind, but from what you describe, my tactics against that mech would be to use two fast units with low BV, maybe Vipers or Ice Ferrets, and get them on either side of this mech - it could not turn in any way that would not have it end up with its back turned to one of them. That, and/or use fast-moving units that stay in the CLPL´s long range bracket, to keep your unit´s to-hit modifiers high."

The following quote is from page 7 of the Revised Second Printing of 'BattleTech Technical Readout: 3050': "Each Clan warrior selects his own target, and it appears to be dishonorable to allow another warrior to help in a kill". SireChaos, if you were roleplaying Clan MechWarriors, then they would be dishonored for using such tactics.
SireChaos, you certainly have a keen eye for the best 'Mechs in the BATTLETECH universe. That Viper is one of the best 'Mech designs. Its only design faults are that it doesn't have enough heat sinks to be able to fire all of its weapons without overheating, and that it has an XL engine which makes critical hits to its engine more likely. My personal favorite 'Mech in all of the Technical Readouts up to and including 3055 is the Masakari (Alternate Configuration C). I also like the Rifleman IIC, the Behemoth, the Pouncer (Primary Weapons Configuration), and the Awesome AWS-8Q.

SireChaos: "And, if you keep running 10+ hexes per turn, and stay within the long range bracket, you´ll get a total modifier of +8 to your enemies´to-hit roll. Even with those -3, that´s a +5, for a 2d6 roll, the more so if you, too, are in a woods hex, or there are some woods in the line of fire.

In that case, SireChaos, CrushU would need to roll 9 or better (with 2d6) to hit your 'Mech if your 'Mech had no cover. That's a 27.777 % chance that each of his 5 Clan Large Pulse Lasers has to hit your 'Mech, which means that he is statistically likely to hit your 'Mech with at least one of the Clan Large Pulse Lasers each turn. If, however, SireChaos' 'Mech also had woods cover, then his 'Mech is statistically likely to not be hit at all. Which leaves the rather obvious question of just how SireChaos is actually going to defeat CrushU's ultimate 'Mech whilst SireChaos' 'Mechs are running around at long range with their +6 penalty (even worse if CrushU's 'Mech has any woods cover) to hit with their weapons due to range and their movement. CrushU's "perfect" 'Mech does have one slight weakness - his maximum weapon range is 20 hexes. If SireChaos was to use 'Mechs with longer range weapons like the Gauss Rifle, ER PPC, and Clan ER Large Laser, then, so long as he was able to keep his 'Mechs just out of CrushU's 'Mech's weapon range, SireChaos would be able to fire at CrushU's 'Mech until it was toast - it would be a LONG battle, though!

LarkinVB: "I don't understand a word of your BT chatter"

LarkinVB, considering that you co-made 'Titans of Steel: Warring Suns', how can that computer game contain so many of the rules of BATTLETECH if you don't know anything about BATTLETECH?

SireChaos: "Kinda off-topic, but I am sort of curious what those "perfect designs" for BattleTech are."

The following were my custom designs for the "perfect" 'Mech in BATTLETECH that I came up with back in the mid 1990's:

'Mech Name: Sniper
Mass: 100 tons
Technology: Clan
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Armor Factor: 288
Heat Sinks: 26 [52]
Max. heat/turn: 52
'Mech Cost: 10,412,000 C-Bills

Engine: 300 Vlar (19 tons)
Cockpit: (3 tons)
Gyros: (3 tons)
Internal Structure: Endo Steel (5 tons) (7 slots)
Armor: 288 (18 tons)
5 Clan Large Pulse Lasers (30 tons) (10 slots)
Targeting Computer (6 tons) (6 slots)
26 Clan Double Heat Sinks (16 tons) (28 slots)
========================================
(100 tons) (51 slots)

Armor Allocation
================
H 9
LA/RA 30
LT/RT 30
LT(R)/RT(R) 10
CT 44
CT(R) 15
LL/RL 40

Critical Hit Table
==================

Left Arm
========
2 Clan Large Pulse Lasers
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Head
====
Endo Steel

Right Arm
=========
3 Clan Large Pulse Lasers
2 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Torso
==========
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks
6 Endo Steel

Center Torso
============
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Torso
===========
Targeting Computer
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Leg
========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Leg
=========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Design Notes: this 'Mech does not have hand actuators or lower arm actuators.
_______________________________________________________________________

'Mech Name: Punisher
Mass: 100 tons
Technology: Clan
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Armor Factor: 304
Heat Sinks: 31 [62]
Max. heat/turn: 62

Engine: 300 Vlar (19 tons)
Cockpit: (3 tons)
Gyros: (3 tons)
Internal Structure: (10 tons)
Armor: 304 (19 tons)
4 Clan ER PPCs (24 tons) (8 slots)
Clan Small Pulse Laser (1 ton) (1 slot)
31 Clan Double Heat Sinks (21 tons) (38 slots)
==========================================
(100 tons) (47 slots)

Armor Allocation
================
H 9
LA/RA 34
LT/RT 32
LT(R)/RT(R) 10
CT 46
CT(R) 15
LL/RL 41

Critical Hit Table
==================

Left Arm
========
2 Clan ER PPCs
2 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Head
====
Clan Small Pulse Laser

Right Arm
=========
2 Clan ER PCCs
2 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Torso
==========
6 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Center Torso
============
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Torso
===========
6 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Leg
========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Leg
=========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Design Notes: this 'Mech does not have hand actuators or lower arm actuators.
_______________________________________________________________________

'Mech Name: Headhunter
Mass: 100 tons
Technology: Clan
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Armor Factor: 304
Heat Sinks: 29 [58]
Max. heat/turn: 59
Mass Critical

Engine: 300 Vlar (19 tons)
Cockpit: (3 tons)
Gyros: (3 tons)
Internal Structure: (10 tons)
Armor: 304 (19 tons)
3 Clan ER PPCs (18 tons) (6 slots)
Clan ER Large Laser (4 tons) (1 slot)
Targeting Computer (5 tons) (5 slots)
29 Clan Double Heat Sinks (19 tons) (34 slots)
==========================================
(100 tons) (46 slots)

Armor Allocation
================
H 9
LA/RA 34
LT/RT 32
LT(R)/RT(R) 10
CT 46
CT(R) 15
LL/RL 41

Critical Hit Table
==================

Left Arm
========
Clan ER PPC
4 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Head
====
Clan ER Large Laser

Right Arm
=========
2 Clan ER PPCs
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Torso
==========
4 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Center Torso
============
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Torso
===========
Targeting Computer
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Leg
========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Leg
=========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Design Notes: this 'Mech does not have hand actuators or lower arm actuators.

"Your Squad sucks bosons!" - Professor Farnsworth (Futurama)

[LarkinVB]

1. Half of the Titans have names that are from 'Mechs in BATTLETECH (in my opinion, it is sacrilege to use classic 'Mech names like the Warhammer, Marauder, Battlemaster, Awesome, Behemoth, and Atlas anywhere else but in BATTLETECH!).
2. A lot of the default Titans in v1.2.1 of the game are not optimally designed.
3. The way the game determines the initial attribute values and skill values of new Jock recruits is so unfair!
4. The different weapons in this game are not balanced - some weapons (like the Light Meson Gun, Heavy Meson Gun, Neutron Blaster, E.M. Pulser, Black Ray Gun, Tesla Bolt, Plasma Gun, and Gauss Cannon) are much better than others!
5. The game allows you to custom design your own Titans.
The above 5 issues need to be fixed in a game-balancing patch before players can truly roleplay this game (or before I can, at the very least).

1. Rename them
2. Optimize them
3. Don't understand why this is bad.
4. This is new to me and I played about 500+ battles
5. Titan customization is bad and needs to be fixed in a patch ? I'm stunned.

[Thorgrim]

ORIGINAL: gazra
I find it difficult to roleplay this game when:
1. Half of the Titans have names that are from 'Mechs in BATTLETECH (in my opinion, it is sacrilege to use classic 'Mech names like the Warhammer, Marauder, Battlemaster, Awesome, Behemoth, and Atlas anywhere else but in BATTLETECH!).
2. A lot of the default Titans in v1.2.1 of the game are not optimally designed.
3. The way the game determines the initial attribute values and skill values of new Jock recruits is so unfair!
4. The different weapons in this game are not balanced - some weapons (like the Light Meson Gun, Heavy Meson Gun, Neutron Blaster, E.M. Pulser, Black Ray Gun, Tesla Bolt, Plasma Gun, and Gauss Cannon) are much better than others!
5. The game allows you to custom design your own Titans.
The above 5 issues need to be fixed in a game-balancing patch before players can truly roleplay this game (or before I can, at the very least).

1. It's a tribute to BT, of sorts. Matter of opinion I guess. By half you mean about 80 or so? Did you count them? Should those words be removed from dictionaries, so that they're not accidentally used in other games?
2. The default database is not supposed to be an optimized db. It's mostly a compilation of solid designs, with variation in configurations and roles. It's also a "guide" on how to design titans. The fact that it is not an optimized db is an incentive for players to fire up the factory and work to optimize them and/or build their own, according to their playstyle. The Factory is a game within the game. BTW, BT official designs are nowhere near optimized...
3. Opinion.
4. Opinion.
5. Thankfully, and it rocks.
Maybe you just need to play it a bit more?

Reading the manual for this computer game gave me the impression that combat in this computer game seemed more ruthless than in BATTLETECH. However, now that I have actually PLAYED this computer game a bit, I now agree with you, SireChaos, that MechWarriors in BATTLETECH have a much greater chance of dying in battles. A single head shot by an AC/20, Gauss Rifle, or Clan ER PPC will instantly kill a MechWarrior. What was I thinking?

You might want to consider that it's actually intended [;)] If jocks would die left and right, you'd see everyone bitch about it.

Quite frankly, why a 'Mech would have hand and lower arm actuators in the first place is beyond me!

Well, when you'll want to pick something up from the battlefield (a severed arm to use as a club for instance), you'll find out [;)]

The following quote is from page 7 of the Revised Second Printing of 'BattleTech Technical Readout: 3050': "Each Clan warrior selects his own target, and it appears to be dishonorable to allow another warrior to help in a kill". SireChaos, if you were roleplaying Clan MechWarriors, then they would be dishonored for using such tactics.

You might want to read further into the BT storyline. This wasn't exactly followed by *all* Clans, and it even got dumped after they took several ugly beatings from the IS stravags. Also notice that the Clans started assimilating IS MechWarriors after the invasion, and not all of them followed strict Clan doctrine - Phelan Kell/Ward/Wolf ring a bell? [:D]
This worked well while the Clans had the technological superiority. The BT storyline got a little "out of control" after the invasion IMO, and the boardgame too as a consequence.

[gazra]

Thorgrim: "Should those words be removed from dictionaries, so that they're not accidentally used in other games?"

I realize that BATTLETECH copied some of the 'Mechs from ROBOTECH, and that the old Amiga computer game Steel Empire (also known as Cyber Empires) had 'Mechs named the 'Behemoth' and 'Titan' around the same time that BATTLETECH released the 'Behemoth' and 'Grand Titan' 'Mechs in 1992, so BATTLETECH isn't completely original either. But, to me, every 'Mech name in the BattleTech Technical Readouts 2750, 3025 and 3050 are sacred and should not be used anywhere else. How hard is it to come up with some new names for Titans that haven't been used before in other 'Mech games? Be creative and give 'Titans of Steel: Warring Suns' its own unique, rich universe.

Thorgrim: "BTW, BT official designs are nowhere near optimized..."

You don't need to tell me that. Isn't it pathetic just how poorly designed almost all of them are? At least the default Titans in this computer game don't suffer from that problem.

Thorgrim: "Well, when you'll want to pick something up from the battlefield (a severed arm to use as a club for instance), you'll find out."

With 5 Clan Large Pulse Lasers, 26 double heat sinks, and a targeting computer, why would you even consider making a club attack, or let an enemy 'Mech get within melee range of your 'Mech for that matter? I'd probably rather have a 'Mech that was able to flip its arms over than a 'Mech that was able to pick up a club and also make punch attacks without any penalties.

Thorgrim: "You might want to read further into the BT storyline. This wasn't exactly followed by *all* Clans, and it even got dumped after they took several ugly beatings from the IS stravags. Also notice that the Clans started assimilating IS MechWarriors after the invasion, and not all of them followed strict Clan doctrine - Phelan Kell/Ward/Wolf ring a bell? This worked well while the Clans had the technological superiority.

Thanks for teaching me about that, Thorgrim. I wasn't aware of that. What exactly are "stravags"? Do you mean ComStar's Com Guards? Or is it a derisive slang term used by Clan MechWarriors to describe Inner Sphere MechWarriors?

Thorgrim: "The BT storyline got a little "out of control" after the invasion IMO, and the boardgame too as a consequence."

I couldn't agree more! My favourite era of BATTLETECH is 3025, before the Federated Commonwealth and the Clan invasion detracted from the BATTLETECH universe's rich background.

[CrushU]

Pah!

Stravag is a term for anyone not of Truebirth. (Which means you're a Freebirth, aka, conceived naturally) As all of the IS are Freebirths, stravag applies to any and all of them.

I like the Clans. I like their ways of combat. None of the silly wars, we use ordered Trials. Each Clan is reasonably distinct as well... Personally I like Ghost Bear the best. Only Clan founded by a married couple... Strong sense of ties to other Clansmen, unlike other Clans which consider Individuals to be unimportant.

As for arm flipping... Yeah. Generally being able to flip arms is more useful than the punching would be. (Penalties to punches for missing hand/lower arm actuators.) For the most part, hand actuators are included on 'Mechs for RP reasons. (Can't pick up things without a hand)

That Sniper is almost the exact same thing as the 5 CLPL mech that is so deadly... There's a specific reason they were put in the Torsos instead of the Arms... I can't recall what, though. It's *possible* they put less armor on the arms and armored the torsos heavier.

[Thorgrim]

The Bear RULZ! [:D]