National Effectiveness

[Vinnie O]

One of the things that really irks me is that Russian units, especially air units, can sit in the rear and gain "experience" and then come into play with combat effectiveness greater than German units that have spent 6 months in combat.

The German units average DOWN because replacements have a lower "experience" level than the receiving unit, while the Russian units average UP, because replacements have a HIGHER "experience" rating than the pre-war army and air force.

This makes no sense. Colonel Dupuy has documented a 2:1 (or greater) superiority of Germans over Russians in "combat effectiveness" (see "Numbers, Prediction and War"). It should not be possible for ANY Russian unit to achieve an "experience" rating better than perhaps "50%" and Russian replacements should join their units with an experience of perhaps 10%, since they are merely illiterate peasants who have been handed guns or told to sit in an airplane.

It is important that you read "Stalin's Reluctant Soldiers" by Reese. What Trotsky and Stalin created as "the Red Army" was NEVER what Europeans would call an "army" and was in fact MUCH closer to what the Nationalist CHINESE called an "army".

[leopard]

Originally posted by Vinnie O:
One of the things that really irks me is that Russian units, especially air units, can sit in the rear and gain "experience" and then come into play with combat effectiveness greater than German units that have spent 6 months in combat.

The German units average DOWN because replacements have a lower "experience" level than the receiving unit, while the Russian units average UP, because replacements have a HIGHER "experience" rating than the pre-war army and air force.

This makes no sense. Colonel Dupuy has documented a 2:1 (or greater) superiority of Germans over Russians in "combat effectiveness" (see "Numbers, Prediction and War"). It should not be possible for ANY Russian unit to achieve an "experience" rating better than perhaps "50%" and Russian replacements should join their units with an experience of perhaps 10%, since they are merely illiterate peasants who have been handed guns or told to sit in an airplane.

It is important that you read "Stalin's Reluctant Soldiers" by Reese. What Trotsky and Stalin created as "the Red Army" was NEVER what Europeans would call an "army" and was in fact MUCH closer to what the Nationalist CHINESE called an "army".

Interesting historical stuff. As for WIR it's not really that easy to create super air groups for the Russkies. I know, I've tried. If the Luftwaffe strat bombs the rear areas those fighters will get chewed up. OTOH Russki bomber groups have been known to hit 90 exp. quite easily.

[Sapphire]

Oh yes it is. My usual procedure is to pull all my air out and put it in HQ's near Kazan until all the fighters are upgraded. In the original game they usually went into battle with about 70 experience. In WIR 2.0 they trained up much more quickly and went into battle with 85-90 experience, and very quickly wiped out the Luftwaffe.

The ground units trained very quickly too--I had guard units in 1942. I haven't tried 2.1 yet but I hope they toned it down.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Sapphire:
The ground units trained very quickly too--I had guard units in 1942. I haven't tried 2.1 yet but I hope they toned it down.

I've gotten guard units in 1942 with the old game. That doesn't sound like a problem.

[mkane]

Originally posted by Sapphire:
Oh yes it is. My usual procedure is to pull all my air out and put it in HQ's near Kazan until all the fighters are upgraded. In the original game they usually went into battle with about 70 experience. In WIR 2.0 they trained up much more quickly and went into battle with 85-90 experience, and very quickly wiped out the Luftwaffe.

The ground units trained very quickly too--I had guard units in 1942. I haven't tried 2.1 yet but I hope they toned it down.

Yeah, I agree! Is it possible to make a limit to what experience an air unit can accheive through training? I'd say ~60 should be tops! Training a unit to elite status... I don't know!! Live "killing" is needed to reach such levels. Training can NEVER replace the real thing.

[Vinnie O]

Yes,there should be a hard limit on how much "experience" a unit can gain without combat.

My favorite story on this is the US 28th Infantry Division (Pennsylvania National Guard). The 28th had been activiated a year before Pearl Harbor and didn't enter combat until the Summer of 1944, this is on the order of 4 YEARS of non-combat training. When the 28th finally engaged in significant combat they were practically annihilated in the Hurtgen Forest. Fortunately for the division commander, one of the assistant division commanders suffered a nervous breakdown, so everybody blamed HIM.

60% is a good mark for an upper limit without combat. Several German aces remark that the SINGLE most important event in the training of a fighter pilot was getting his first KILL. This allowed him to finally understand all of what all of the classroom stuff MEANT. Saburo Sakai describes fighting the COMBINED fighter groups of 3rd Fleet ALONE. He says that he realized that they were not a threat because he could see they opened fire at MUCH too great a range. He escaped the battle without a SINGLE bullet hole in his Zero. A few months of COMBAT experience by the Americans would have changed that.