The NO HQ BU experiment (opponents welcome)

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
(Soviets have a serious lack of units & if you keep it that way as the Germans you will do well)

Why do you think I have forts on the Finns border? It frees up those units for front line duty. The extra 7-10 units can plug a lot of holes in the line.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

This is the Secret German Directive for taking Leningrad quickly. The important notes on this paper have been blackened in for secrecy ;-P (/poke EwaldvonKleist)

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
The important notes on this paper have been blackened in for secrecy ;-P (/poke EwaldvonKleist)

EwalvonKleist only objects to whitened outs

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
The important notes on this paper have been blackened in for secrecy ;-P (/poke EwaldvonKleist)

EwalvonKleist only objects to whitened outs

Oh I think not according to his last post on the subject ;-P (Love ya EwaldvonKleist)

[tyronec]

I agree with HardLuck, Axis can and should take Leningrad - with or without HQBuildup.
The general approach is much the same, commit whatever resources are needed to take the primary objectives AND take out as much units/industry as you can. What is possible in each area depends on how STAVKA defends and what rule set is being used. So without HQBuildup surrounds and penetrations are harder, against '+1' you have to be more cautious with exposed units.
Whatever the rule set, if STAVKA deploys too far forwards their armies get wiped and too far back their industry gets wiped.
However HardLuck is pulling your leg about conforming to an Attack Doctrine.

[Psych0]

Rightio, my thoughts on playing without HQ BU.

1) Absolute number one rule is to achieve maximum progress with rail conversion every single turn along the shortest route to the objectives Leningrad, Moscow and Donetz Basin. I use 3 FBDs in the north on basically 2 axes of advance, the 3rd FBD making sure that the Moscow axis always progresses by 4 hexes. The 'north FBD' goes through Baltics for 5 turns and can convert 6 hexes on its own even through swamps and across rivers. But you MUST clear the rail you want to convert the turn before and ensure no Red units can convert it back. In the south Rumania must be activated for T2 so you can start the rail from there in direction of D town.

2) Then stay max 25 hexes from the railheads so that the panzers always have at least 25-30MP. If the Reds are in striking distance then we fight, if not then we just halt at the 25 hex limit. 25-30MP is still quite a bit.

3) Use any opportunity to pocket units, 2 here, 3 there adds up. If at all possible stay above 100k captured per turn (until T5 more like 300k). More important this than to take ground. Split to regiments to secure pockets if needed. Then reform the next turn so it doesn't cost much extra MP really.

4) I have not yet experimented keeping some PzC back to refuel and take advantage of the lower MP cost crossing already converted terrain the next turn. Thus far I've always had too many opportunities to fight and pocket, but against a Sir Robin defence I am prepared to try this.

5) Using AP first for upgrading leaders and eliminating command penalties. That easily takes all AP for the first 7 turns. Then optimizing the spread of support units to make all corps stronger. And construction crews to OKH, AG HQs and security HQs planted on rail to maximize rail conversion of the entire network in between the axes of advance.

6) Deliberate attacks with Pz/Mot units I avoid like the plague, costs just way to much MP. Rather stack those panzers high and do hasties or not attack at all.

7) Motorizing infantry I have also not experimented with. Anyone got good results with that?

8) I preserve trucks as much as possible, one example is that the entire Luftwaffe just stays on the rail lines. Why not really? After turn 1 I find bombing Red air bases way too expensive, so I preserve Luftwaffe strength for when the rail heads are close to the front. I could send everything to reserve but consider that cheesy. And air cover doesn't seem to be necessary against the Red AF in 41. CAS might be handy in bigger battles but in my limited experience it works fine without the first 10 turns at least. Army / AG HQs on rails too but that's more so that the rail conversion crews get sent out from those HQs. Haven't bothered to do the comparison vs not having Luftwaffe on rails in terms of truck usage, but it feels I save something.

9) Panzers are your strongest units so why not use them to push the Ruskies around. No need to wait to for the infantry in my book. Of course with infantry on top even more is possible.

10) Can't think of much more at the moment. As you can see, no magic, nothing special, just efficient execution. And I echo HLYA's comment of sticking with the plan you set out with. Red's job is to try and tempt you to deviate from that plan.

Looking forward to your wisdoms. I'm just a new kid on the block refusing to use this silly HQ BU crap. Naturally rolling entire AGs along 1 rail line is not realistic either, but with the supply system and rail conversion rules as they are what else can you do? Especially the rail via underdeveloped Balkans and Rumania for entire AGS is totally silly, but without that the Krauts won't get anywhere near the historical line in the south.

[EwaldvonKleist]

@HLYA: Ha, you have forgotten two lines!

8) At the current state of the system, having more than 100% trucks has nearly zip effect on your supply situation. The system can simply not use an excess. Saving trucks will only help at times when there aren't enough to fulfill the requirenents.

[Psych0]

Thanks Ewald. Slowly was coming to that conclusion, good to have confirmation. I'll start keeping the Luftwaffe nearer the front then. So they actually contribute somewhat.

Anyone else with words of wisdom on the 10 points I laid out?

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@HLYA: Ha, you have forgotten two lines!

8) At the current state of the system, having more than 100% trucks has nearly zip effect on your supply situation. The system can simply not use an excess. Saving trucks will only help at times when there aren't enough to fulfill the requirenents.

(20.4.2) Supply Segment

In the first supply sub-segment eligible HQ units receive supply and eligible attached combat units in turn receive supply from their HQ units. If the following circumstances for a HQ unit are true, the HQ unit will receive additional supplies and fuel, and has the potential of receiving more than its requirement (each condition met increases the amount received):

* The HQ has over 50 percent of its vehicle requirement.
* The HQ must be within 10 MPs of the railhead.
* There is a vehicle surplus in the motor pool.

In the second supply sub-segment, combat, air base and rail repair units that could not get supplies from the HQ
unit to which they are attached will attempt to trace directly to the railhead as if they were an HQ unit. These units also have the potential for exceeding their needs in the second supply sub-segment if there is a surplus of vehicles in the motor pool.

I'd still keep Luftwaffe closer to the front

10MPs from the railhead is a good conservative distance, 5MP for transports (count the distance according to next turn's Range to Rail!).

[Psych0]

Then some thoughts on the game vs Drakken. Despite all his lamenting to me it's getting incredibly tough in front of Moscow to make much headway. 3-4 hexes per turn, same speed as the railhead. I suppose no need for more. My panzers keep doing the heavy lifting and suffering for it.

Sure he made some mistakes that cost him Leningrad too quickly but the defence of Moscow has been getting increasingly effective. It's like wading through thick syrup! I feel I don't have any options but to keep pushing head on. Keep the pressure on whatever the cost (TOE of some PzDivs at 70%). It does force him to give up the flanks so that's a bonus. Nice to be next to Moscow in T9, no discussion, but not much pocketing opportunity for 4-5 turns now and just routing units turn after turn. What do you think of this situation AGC is in?

PzG4 is on it's way to make sure that Moscow falls and then some. But Drakken probably knows/guesses that already. Model's crack corps will take Leningrad in next 2 turns and then rail to Moscow to dislodge the by then surrounded defenders there. If necessary. Would love to hear your thoughts guys.

PS: will post a screenie tonight when home.

[Nix77]

Comments on point 1: Leningrad was wiped quite quickly, but usually it's a good idea to try get the Starya Russia - Velikie Luki - Vitebsk line repaired so you can get troops from Leningrad to Moscow for the November offensive. Also preparing a Center-South rail helps, maybe from Mogilev to Kiev for example.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Psych0

Sure he made some mistakes that cost him Leningrad too quickly but the defence of Moscow has been getting increasingly effective. It's like wading through thick syrup! I feel I don't have any options but to keep pushing head on. Keep the pressure on whatever the cost (TOE of some PzDivs at 70%). It does force him to give up the flanks so that's a bonus. Nice to be next to Moscow in T9, no discussion, but not much pocketing opportunity for 4-5 turns now and just routing units turn after turn. What do you think of this situation AGC is in?

I'd say you're in an excellent situation. Just pull back the breakthrough units and refit for a turn or two, then make good preparations for a deep breakthrough or a wide pincer. There's plenty of time. Try to hide your PzCorps in forests or cities before the strike. If you had Model breaking Leningrad, get him to Moscow and gather 2-3 elite infantry corps to break the worst hardpoints. Promote Rendulic, Weiss or some other morale 8 leader to give some spice for those corps. I guess you may already have them in action since you're not spending APs to buildups!

You obviously know how to concetrate forces so the above should be an easy thing to do

Many players unnecessarily "create a front" and advance with that, but that's really not the way to do it as the Germans in my opinion. You can easily leave huge tracts of land unattended and just take it later. Just concentrate forces where it matters, and let the Soviet spread their forces in fear of panzer breakthroughs. This is the reason why the cheesy panzerball (mmm... sounds delicious!) tactic is so effective.

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: Psych0

Rightio, my thoughts on playing without HQ BU.

2) Then stay max 25 hexes from the railheads so that the panzers always have at least 25-30MP. If the Reds are in striking distance then we fight, if not then we just halt at the 25 hex limit. 25-30MP is still quite a bit.

Could be worthwhile parking the PzCorp HQ a bit closer to railhead now and then to receive full supply? Especially on clear terrain the difference is noticable: 25hx/30MP you receive maybe 30% of full supply demand, while at 10hx/15MP you get 80+% supply. So there's 15MP difference to get back to front line, the extra supply you get should easily cover that and leave you extra and the benefit of better refits from being closer to rail.

I know at most times staying away from front with the panzers is really not an option, but it's worth the try when you can manage it.

[Kantti]

Don't forget that moving that 15mp also reduces incoming supplies (weren't they somehow dependable on remaining mps?) and going back and forth increases fatigue.

[Psych0]

And the screenie of Moscow area in the Drakken game as promised...

[bigbaba]

holy moly. so many routed divisions. I guess Moscow is gone by turn 11.

[Psych0]

Similar number of routed units every turn the last 4 turns or so. They just boomerang right back into the big carpet the next turn. I presume their morale and fatigue is reduced every time I route them, I should play the Soviets some time to see what the effect on routed units actually is. And how do they become 'unrouted' so quickly?

[Psych0]

It appears that my original opponent for this AAR has gone AWOL. It's been 2 months now since his last turn. So I'll just write this one off.

This AAR is not about 1 single game anyway. The Drakken and xalinas_slith games are plenty interesting (for me at least), so I'll keep you posted on those. They might go the distance, let's see.

And thank you Nix77, I had not yet promoted the really expensive leaders like Balck, Rendulic, Reinhard, Weiss etc. Will start giving key corps that extra boost from next turn, look out!

May I ask you what you'd like to see more of in this AAR? Or something you're missing?

[tyronec]

Am on my second No HQBuildup game, the first having been abandoned.
I think it is a good way of balancing the rule set as it is now and both games have certainly been interesting and fun to play.
It does make it very hard to create big pockets, that is after the first turn or two. So probably not as historical a set up as with HQBuildups when you think of the massive pockets Axis created throughout '41. So I think the developers are going the right way in de-powering Axis with harsher logistics and more HQBuildup costs. There should be a gradual reduction of Axis strike power over the first summer.

[Psych0]

That aligns with my experiences quite well tyronec. 3 completed games, 1 abandoned and 2 ongoing and indeed it's perfectly feasible without HQ BU in summer 41. It feels tense and fun although it does close down the bigger encirclements.

So either increase rail conversion speed slightly (5 hexes instead of 4 at 2 per hex instead of 3) or indeed make BUs more costly so it really becomes a hard choice between long term better leaders and optimal command structure or short term HQ BUs. Or why not both?

Does anyone know how to change the rail conversion cost and limit parameters? Or is it hardcoded in the game? I'd love to test a game without BU but with above tweaked speed & limit.