Lawrence of Arabia Gambit for the Rising Sun

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: dereck

You know, a lot of people (including myself) have criticized Hirohito's plan as not being able to work. But at one time the entire Joint Chiefs of Staff criticized one General's plan and said there was no way it would work. This General got his way and his landings on Inchon turned the tide of the Korean War.

And he was later fired for wanting to drop a ****load of nukes on China..... You do have a point though.

[sveint]

Can we limit the personal attacks to once per lifetime

Agreed.

But I felt I had to make myself very clear here... seems some people still think the original poster is serious.

Look, it's someone who made a new board login (Hirohito - no other posts). Then drops this post to gather a fanclub. It's that simple. I WISH it was serious strategy and then we could discuss it, but it isn't.

Why don't someone start another serious thread?

[grumbler]

I took his posts very seriously, and looked at his suggested strategy very seriously as a model for my next game. I concluded that he way over estimated the impact of KB in Hawaii and way underestimated the lack of CVLs elsewhere. In short, I found his strategy worth examining but not worth following, and I enjoyed the process of doing so. Others had similar results.

So, he spent a fair amount of lifespan creating his strategy, and another fair amount defending it, and I and others spend a fair amount of lifespan looking at it.

As ways of expending lifespan, this seems rather a thing to celebrate, given that we are expending lifespan on this topic at all.

Lifespan being finite, expend it as you will. I am simply suggesting that psychoanalysis of other posters for motives is lifespan that could be expended in trying to figure out how to bag that last pesky retreating unit.

[Dereck]

MacArthur forgot the one inviolate tenate of the US military: it is subordinate to civilian leadership. He stepped out of bounds by directly flouting the direct orders of the commander-in-chief and was rightly removed from command. All the other 5-star officers stepped down from active duty (5-star rank - General of the Army, General of the Air Force or Fleet Admiral - being immune from mandatory retirement) but MacArthur was the only one to be removed against his will.

[sveint]

How to win the war in 1942 as the Allies!!!

As the genious Rommel said (or could have said, or something, insert famous quote here), "Darn the supplies"!

a) Evacuate all your ships, and as many air and land units as you can to San Fransisco. All of it!
b) Create task forces:
1) transport with as many divisions as possible
2) 4 CV air combat
3) bombardment and surface combat, a couple each at least
4) about a million supplies on all your AKs, air units on the rest of them
5) lots of fuel on more TFs
c) gather the fleet outside of Seattle
d) invade Hokkaido or Northern Japan, there's nothing there to stop you except a division or two (KB will be off near DEI or Australia)
e) bomb Japan to the stone age, enjoy massacring his ships as he tries to counterattack against your massive LBA
f) Congratulations, you win!

I don't mind sharing this strategy, because I don't think you could defend against it, even if you know I am using it. (had to borrow this, but still valid)

Lifespan being finite, expend it as you will. I am simply suggesting that psychoanalysis of other posters for motives is lifespan that could be expended in trying to figure out how to bag that last pesky retreating unit.

Thanks Grumbler, I like your sense of humor and bitter irony. The fact is WITP is a game and only exists to entertain us. Like most of us here I enjoy discussing strategies and tactics. Sadly too many people took the initial poster seriously and I intentionally made my reply very strong to wake some people (hopefully). And truely this thread entertains me, although I'm a bit dismayed but those that take the strategy too seriosuly.

Looking forward to feedback on my brilliant strategy, don't be afraid to be positive - my ego could use it! [:D]

[Captain Cruft]

ORIGINAL: sveint

How to win the war in 1942 as the Allies!!!

As the genious Rommel said (or could have said, or something, insert famous quote here), "Darn the supplies"!

a) Evacuate all your ships, and as many air and land units as you can to San Fransisco. All of it!
b) Create task forces:
1) transport with as many divisions as possible
2) 4 CV air combat
3) bombardment and surface combat, a couple each at least
4) about a million supplies on all your AKs, air units on the rest of them
5) lots of fuel on more TFs
c) gather the fleet outside of Seattle
d) invade Hokkaido or Northern Japan, there's nothing there to stop you except a division or two (KB will be off near DEI or Australia)
e) bomb Japan to the stone age, enjoy massacring his ships as he tries to counterattack against your massive LBA
f) Congratulations, you win!

Of course you are being facetious. That plan has more chance of working than the original one though ...

Land 2 Marine Divs at that base to the right of Sapporo (Agishama ?, SPS 6/6) with no LCUs in it and which has resource production.
Form up the fleet at Anchorage and approach via the Kuriles, less chance of being spotted.

[Raverdave]

To put it very simply so that there is no confusion as to what I am about to say:-

MacArthur was a wanker.

[Captain Cruft]

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

To put it very simply so that there is no confusion as to what I am about to say:-

MacArthur was a wanker.

I don't think that word exists in American otherwise the profanity filter would have had it ... Still, I don't disagree.

[Dereck]

MacArthur definitely was a megalomaniac.

MacArthur felt he had the authority to give orders to Australian troops (which he did) but when General Blamey gave orders to American troops (which he HAD the authority to do) MacArthur treated that as a mortal insult.

A book I'm reading about the Pacific war told how he played General Blamey and the Australian Prime Minister against each other so he (MacArthur) was able to sidetrack a lot of good troops, both Australian and New Zealand, to tedious and wasteful mop-up operations in rear areas instead of using them to help with the invasion of the Phillippines.

[Raverdave]

Pretty much. His true value was as a morale booster in the dark days of '42. But that is about it as far as I am concerned.

And while I am on the subject of wankers, Blamey also fits the bill.

[Dereck]

There wasn't anybody who could stand up to MacArthur until Truman came along.

MacArthur was OBSESSED with one goal: liberating the Phillippines. He had an entire American army that could have been utilized elsewhere busy just cleaning up Japanese resistance in all of the thousands of islands in the Phillippine archipelago [sic].

[mogami]

Hi, So who did he decide to play PBEM with and when is the AAR going to begin. Looking forward to following progress of this one.

[2ndACR]

Have no clue, have not seen him back in awhile.

[Hirohito]

>This is a case of one armchair general having read a book >about history,
Actually, I have probably read over a thousand books on military strategy. I was in the first gulf war where I was shot in the back, how many wars have you been in?


>being a fanboy of hero of said history book,
Well, let's see, I quoted three different military geniuses from three different books, which one are you talking about? Lawrence, Sun Tzu or Stonewall? Yes, I am a fan of all three of these military geniuses. Lawrence brought down the Ottoman Empire and never had more than ten thousand effectives. Stonewall never lost a battle adn whipped three Yankee armies, each of which outnumbered his own army, in a series of running battles up and down the length of the Shenandoah Valley before slipping away to help Lee drive McClellan from the gates of Richmond and then on to smash two more union armies at second bull run and chancelorsville. Sun Tzu's legend speaks for itself. So, yes I am a fan of theirs and take the lessons they would teach to heart.


>then having delusions of grandeur of being the Emperor of >Japan,

Any strategy game has to have a premise for who you are in the game. That dictates the kind of moves you will make. My premise is that Hirohito gets a copy of the Japanese war plan a few days before dec 7 and realizes that it is not a plan to win a war, it is a plan to start a war and he intercedes and creates a plan which will win the war and uses his position to insist that it is followed. That is why the jumping off points of the old plan are used instead of the troops being in their proper positions for the new plan, the new plan came at the last moment.

>next all he need are worshippers so he comes here to proclaim his genious and expect us to... to do what?

Gee, you seem to know a lot about me. Worshippers? I didn't proclaim I was a genius, I showed a plan that I think is credible, in order to get others to discuss it with me. A few are able to actually discuss it, most here just want to shoot off their big mouth.

>If he really thought it would work he wouldn't post here; he'd >play and use his "strategy".
How do you know what I think? I do play all the time. I will play any challenger now that my computer is fixed.

>That's not what he wants, he wants esteem and to satisfy his >own ego.

Posting a plan in a forum that is titled "War Room" and is a place where we are supposed to be discussing strategies is "satisfying my own ego"? What else am I supposed to talk about here? You seem to know a lot about what I want. You know nothing about me.

>Now's here's my "darn the torpedoes" opinion: a 3 year old can >make better attempts at getting attention, all his "strategy" >amounts to is "take everything".

Even with you knowing the plan I'll still wipe you off the map. Lawrence's plan resulted in take everything in the end.

People have said different points in the plan won't work, I say they are wrong. Here is a summary:
1. Take Hawaii if possible.
I believe that if an all out attmept is made from Dec 7, that Hawaii can be taken and the US Navy will pretty much cease to exist in the process. The objections to this idea were basically: What do you do when the USN moves into the hex occupied by Nagumo's raiding force? Well since I bumped up his force to include all of the Empire's carriers and all the capital ships in the Empire north of Taiwan plus any auxilliary ship that can either fire a bullet or launch a search plane of any kind, please do move the US Navy into that hex, it will be blown out of the water. What is left of it after the air raid on Dec 7 AM, I mean.

Hawaii in the Empires hands puts a big crimp in the USN's war plans.

2. Bypass the PI, Malaya, Singapore, and Papua New Guinea and head straight for the outer ring of islands of DEI.

The objection here is that the airforces in PI, Malaya, and Singapore will then starve Japan out. These airforces can be wiped out in two days and the air bases made unusable. Getting more planes to them will require coming from San Fran and passing two gauntlets.

3. Take India as soon as possible.

The objection here is that Britain has several divisions in India. They can be isolated and destroyed in turn. The next objection is that Britain has an armored brigade in India. The Empire has several armored regiments, if all of these armored regiments are assigned to the Southern army, and there are enough political points to do this then the equivalent of two armored brigades can be created. India can't hold if hit very early on.

4. Take Alaska including the panhandle and threaten the west coast from the highways coming from the north.

The objection here is that the Empire cannot take the west coast.

I never said "take" the west coast, I said threaten it. It can't be taken, but you can give the US player a scare and force him to keep forces occupied here.

5. Take Australia as soon as India falls.

The objection here is that Australia has too many troops.

Again, you can isolate the Australian divisions and destroy them piecemeal.

6. Keep PI, Malaya, Singapore, and Papua New Guinea isolated and take them at your leisure after India, Hawaii, Australia are dealt with.

The objection here is that "you can't do that".

I say you can. What will stop you?

Clear enough?

One personal note, you said a lot of very insulting things about someone you know nothing about. I don't insult you, don't insult me, it shows that you have illusions of grandeur when you claim to know what someone else thinks or wants or knows or reads.

Hirohito

[Hirohito]

> Agreed.

>But I felt I had to make myself very clear here... seems some >people still think the original poster is serious.

>Look, it's someone who made a new board login (Hirohito - no >other posts). Then drops this post to gather a fanclub. It's >that simple. I WISH it was serious strategy and then we could >discuss it, but it isn't.

It was my first post because I had just found this forum. It was a new login because I had just found this forum. I dropped the post to have a discussion. I dont' know what you are talking about about a fanclub.

Why do you insist on claiming to know the motives and thinking of someone you know nothing about?

Hirohito

[Hirohito]

AN excellent point. Another point I don't see addressed anywhere is the flak issue. It is easy to say that KB can just pound PH and destroy the fleet there in toto. It is another thing to play the game and see your elite pilots being bagged by the not-inconsiderable flak you encounter. Flak don't know ****e about eliteness.

I have never been able to make my extended "KB against PH" excursions come out positive in net terms. I can sink lots of replaceable USN ships and destroy replaceable USAAF aircraft, but I have never felt like I "won" when KB sails for Japan at 50% air strength.

As Mogami says, it isn't what you kill, it is what killing it costs in time, resources, and opportunity that is the key. And saying that India is easier early on isn't saying that it is easy, at all.

Hirohito has an interesting idea. I think it lacks some vital considerations, though, like losses and oportunity cost. He started a good thinking man's thread, though, and I salute him for that. Even better, it trigered some funny posts, and after my last game as the Japanese I needed that.

I send ten carriers to PH, not six. And I send every capital ship north of Taiwan. I don't just hit PH from the air, I bombard it too after the first air strike disables the USN's capital ships. Losses are minimal given that the US Navy is toast and Hawaii can probably be taken. The reward is too large not to take this risk. The USN arrives to the battle piecemeal and they get blasted as they arrive, unless they runaway, but it takea a lot of guts not to go to the help of PH.

I did take a lot of things into consideration. I just came up with an attack plan that took care of them all and didn't stick with the original task force that Nagumo was given. If you try to change Nagumo's mission from "hit em while they sleep and then get the h out of there". to "stick around and plaster anything that moves" WITHOUT greatly increasing the size of Nagumo's raiding force, then you are correct, you will have too many losses. But, if you increase the size of the raiding force to a force that can be prelude to an invasion then you can probably pull that off after making PH look like the moon.

Hirohito

[pasternakski]

Silly.

[WiTP_Dude]

ORIGINAL: Hirohito

I send ten carriers to PH, not six. And I send every capital ship north of Taiwan. I don't just hit PH from the air, I bombard it too after the first air strike disables the USN's capital ships.

The mines and coastal guns will put a mighty hurt on your bombardment fleet. Have you tested this out yet against the AI to see how your ships do?

You haven't mentioned my specifc objections on India and Australia. I think you are way too short in naval and air assets to blockade America from Alaska to New Zealand AND take on India/Australia AND capture the DEI in a quick and rapid manner. You can either blockade from Alaska to NZ OR go after India. Doing both at the same time is a pipe dream. If it was so easy and the forces were available, why wasn't EITHER it done? You're saying BOTH can be done at the same time.

Bombers in the PI will take a steady toll on AK and TK convoys. Not to mention the dozens of subs operating in the area. Also, "isolating" Australia and India actually does little good given the way WiTP works.

[grumbler]

ORIGINAL: Hirohito

I send ten carriers to PH, not six.

You don't have ten carriers, you have six. You have an additional 2 CVL and 2 CVE, but these are of little account when it comes to dealing with the PH flak. The flak doesn't care how many planes are coming.

And I send every capital ship north of Taiwan. I don't just hit PH from the air, I bombard it too after the first air strike disables the USN's capital ships.

And how many sips do you lose to the Oahu-based CDs? I am running a little test of that now. It doesn't look good for the Japanese, and when you have completed your single bombardment of Pearl harbor you have a long, long way to go to reach a resupply port for those BBs. I frankly think you are now making it up as you go along.

Losses are minimal given that the US Navy is toast and Hawaii can probably be taken.

This is mere presumption. Actual play tells you that you are wrong. Losses are far from minimal because that nasty flak is still there, and under its cover PH regains its strength.

The reward is too large not to take this risk. The USN arrives to the battle piecemeal and they get blasted as they arrive, unless they runaway, but it takea a lot of guts not to go to the help of PH.

I thought the Allies would lose even if they knew this was your strategy? If they know it is your strategy, they ignore PH for the moment while it recovers from the initial blows and they concentrate against your lagging troop transports. If your fleet is busy trying to supress PH, who is protecting YOUR LOC against the "USN Larry?" Mr Hirohito, meet Mr Ottoman general, and welcome to the battle of the fixed position against the raiders.

I did take a lot of things into consideration. I just came up with an attack plan that took care of them all and didn't stick with the original task force that Nagumo was given. If you try to change Nagumo's mission from "hit em while they sleep and then get the h out of there". to "stick around and plaster anything that moves" WITHOUT greatly increasing the size of Nagumo's raiding force, then you are correct, you will have too many losses. But, if you increase the size of the raiding force to a force that can be prelude to an invasion then you can probably pull that off after making PH look like the moon.

Again, you airily dismiss the idea that you only have six and not ten carriers (maybe you get the equivelent of 7.5 carriers by stripping all of your other offensives of any air cover, but 7.5 is still 2.5 short of 10). Your "sticking around and plastering everybody" strategy has been tried by many, including me, and it does not work. Attrition wears down the KB's irreplacable aircrews quite quickly if you continue to throw them into the maelstrom. You convert yourself from a mobile to a fixed force by tying yourself to geographic positions which are harder for you to defend than they are for the US to attack. Sure, it is easy to talk about having "only" 24 or so key bases, but how do those 24 compare to your total of Betty squadrons (at least two of which are needed to defend against USN raids)? How many are available and built up right away? How many others are withing range of US LBA and so unlikely ever to be built up without needing constant shepherding by the 7.5 carriers you have?

No, what you have is one fistfull of misunderstanding and another of wishful thinking. it was fun examining this strategy, but I think it is pretty clear that it is based on the rosiest of assumptions and that it lacks some crucial details like: what forces, exactly, are siezing the HI, and what are they NOT doing because they are 4,000 miles out of position?

The US losing the HI outside of Oahu isn't as devasting to the US as failing to take the SRA until August is to the Japanese.

[sveint]

Hi Hirohito, glad to see you back, didn't expect that to be honest.

Even with you knowing the plan I'll still wipe you off the map.

It's your extreme arrogance in all your posts that ticked me off. "Talking tough" doesn't win a wargame, a cool head does.

One personal note, you said a lot of very insulting things about someone you know nothing about. I don't insult you, don't insult me, it shows that you have illusions of grandeur when you claim to know what someone else thinks or wants or knows or reads.

You have my apology. No more personal attacks - I'll stick to your proposed plan. Sadly my PBEM game is full, but I'm sure you'll find several people interested. Looking forward to your AAR.

And if your plan works I'll eat my figurative hat. Sadly my fantasy plan has more change of succes, what do you think of it? [;)]