War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

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AcePylut
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by AcePylut »

Having played PH in a PBEM into '43... I'd like to add a couple comments..
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Over the past few months I’ve implemented a two-part test to determine whether a particular practice is unfair (according to my own lights): (1) was it reasonably possible in the real war, or a reasonable extension of what might have been possible? (2) if not, is there a reasonable way for my opponent to counter it?

If they answer to both is in the negative, then I won’t do it.

This seems to be a pretty decent way to approach "is what I'm about to do, gamey?".
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
1) Use of Picket Ships: While I am shifting to using combat ships more and more for picket duty, I still use merchant vessels.

I did the same thing. He asked me not to do it, and I thought about it, and agreed that only 'combat' ships should be pickets - and I defined combat ships as anything "not" a transport. I controlled the Aleuts throughout the game (I had the Ent and Lex in Nome when he went for Attu with a pair of light CV's. I sank two carriers and beat back the invasion) and found that those 3500-4000 endurance ships (YMS and the like) could easily cover the Adak-Midway and Dutch Harbor-PH lanes quite easily. I used a large number of those small boats around the map, and felt that between my patrol bases and pickets I was covered pretty well.

I would have preferred to use transports for one reason only - and that's to reduce the number of mouseclicks having to give orders to 3400 endurance boats instead of 10k endurance boats.
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
2) Using Carrier Planes from Airfields:

I find no reason this is even in question. I'm thinking off the top of my head, of those TBF's at Midway from VT8, and the Cactus AF.
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
1) Use of para fragments to gain omniscient information about my garrison, strength and fort levels at Port Blair. This was not possible in the real war and there is no way that I can prevent a para-assault from accomplishing this task.

If he's going to do this, then it's time to bring the Nautilus back to the Marine Raider location and start doing 20man sub invasions of dot hexes.

He and I had an HR that any sub or para assault must be "in force". I.e. the tactic is ok to do, as long as you're going full in and not using frags.
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
3) Using small units to gain omniscient information about an enemy stack. Steve just used an artillery unit to cross a river and gain complete information about my stack on the far side. There is no way to stop this and it’s totally unrealistic.

My first thought was - maybe he had a stack of units going to that hex, then changed his mind in mid-move, turned some troops around, sent some troops elsewhere, and forgot about the arty unit.

If this tactic was done willingly, then it's kinda cheesy.
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
1) Parking his carriers off California and striking my industrial targets, knowing that doing so doesn’t invoke Allied reinforcements, as would obviously occur in the real war. While this isn’t reasonable, I do have the means of countering the strategy by using picket ships and effectively employing my airforce.

PH raided Seattle in '42 with the Soryu and Hiryu, and sunk 2 CVE's sitting in port. I mentioned in passing that such an act would most definitely turn US into a "Japan First" war setting. He replied that he will do a sub-invasion of a hex that would trigger reinforcements if I wanted such. I declined as my initial comment was just more of an off the cuff statement.

Needless to say, a month or so later, he tried raiding again. My 4 CV's were in Nomuea late '42, began heading back to Pearl (for upgrades and to maybe get lucky). Just when he departed from the west coast raid, I got a magical "radio report" from a hex where i had nothing. Just so happens that he was going to make the run between Pearl Harbor and Christmas isle to Truk. I parked my 4 CV's right in the middle, caught him, and sank his entire tf. 2 KB CV's baby :) The Hornet took 2 torps and was at like 50 float damage.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
2) Capturing rail stations and then transporting whole divisions long distances a day or two after an invasion. In reality, of course, it would take Japan forever to organize rail transportation, if ever. On the other hand, I have the ability to counter this tactic by defending my bases.

I proposed, on the main forum, an HR that an engineer unit has to traverse any hex captured from the enemy, and build level 1 forts if possible, or if in a non-base hex, at least wait a couple-three days before moving on. Building the forts simulates any necessary time spent repairing and securing the railroad before that hex could be used for rail - because paratrooping units 500 miles into Injun territory and magically opening up a fully functioning rail the next day to said hex - is unrealistic.

But I got laughed at by the forum - so oh well.


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Cribtop
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Cribtop »

Dan,

I can say with good authority that you need not fear for your reputation as an honest and honorable gamer.

Many of the implications of Fortress Palembang weren't fully explored (outside the fertile minds of Nemo and Alfred) until Nemo's game and yours showed the strategy in action. Plus Chez was an ultra-historical player who expected a certain kind of game, which, combined with PDU Off worked together to prevent an effective counter.

The point is, the fact you worry about it means you are not what you worry about. [;)]
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Saros
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Saros »

Para assault doesn't halve AV of the defenders and hasn't for a long time. I dunno why people still think this is a thing. All it really does is force the attacker to make a shock attack and cost him a lot more casualties.
princep01
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by princep01 »

I'm not as sure as Saros regarding the effect of para drops, but I think he is correct regarding the "halving effect" claim.  It does create a shock attack as he notes, but, while that can increase casulties, it also adds a +1 modifier to the attack. 
 
I do wish there was a definitve answer to this issue of "halving" the defense, and I am sure it is well known to others, but I confess to some confusion on this point.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Canoerebel »

I've heard it both ways, but I haven't seen anything I consider definitive on the matter. As far as I know, it halfs the defensive AV. I know PzH thinks so too, and he's a pretty knowledgeable player.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
DW
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by DW »

About a week ago, a kind reader posted a helpful pointer about ship movement between Balboa and Capetown. He noted that a TF can be set to maximum speed, that doing so will reduce the time of transit from 21 days to 10 days (at least for TFs that travel the speed of CV Hornet and her escorts), and that doing so does not incur any damage or fuel consumption.

Presto, I gleefully mulled over the possibilities of expediting travel for my combat and carrier TFs from Pacific to Indian Ocean and back. Imagine how useful it might be when it comes time to use my carriers to cover an invasion in NoPac and then get them back to India to cover things there. Imagine the possibilities if Steve wasn’t aware of this shortcut, made a calculation based on the "normal" transit time of 21 days, and then stumbled into a carrier force he "knew" couldn't be present for another couple of weeks.

I mulled this over for a week. On the one hand, it seems a reasonable thing to take advantage of this because it “dampens” the effect of the design flaw that prevents a player from recalling TFs in transit between, say, Balboa and Capetown. You send Hornet on her way to African, need to recall her one day later, but can’t. She’s committed to the three-week journey there…and then three weeks back. Use the new shortcut and you cut the total time away to about 20 days.

Nevertheless, I don’t think the designers meant for off-map transit to work this way. I decided today that I will forego this. I notified Steve, who told me he wasn’t even aware this is possible.

A suggestion...

You could still use the full speed transit option for your ships if you held them in the destination hex until the time for a transit at normal speed had elapsed before actually employing them in the new theater.

If you, for some reason, decided that you wanted to recall the task force, you could issue the recall order as soon as they arrive at the destination hex without waiting for the transit time at normal speed to elapse.

This would eliminate the reduced transit time factor that you feel is unfair to your opponent and would also partially mitigate your inability to recall a task force once it's committed to the transit.
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witpqs
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by witpqs »

IMO, just don't use the faster transit.
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Miller
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Miller »

Using only Art units to shock attack across a river to gain intel on the defenders AV/Forts is cheesy as hell.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Canoerebel »

4/22/42

Carriers: Indomitable is off the map and looks good. She's due for withdrawl in 90 days, so I'll probably do that as soon as she arrives at Capetown (she has 30 SYS and 15 FLT damage; is there any reason to repair damage before withdrawing?). Dutch sub KXVI puts a torp into BB Hiei at the Sunda Straits and later reports a Kate passing by overhead. The KB may be here.

Subs: Allied subs have put single fish in Haruna and Hiei over the past few weeks, while the enemy scored that hit against Indomitable. Other than that strike, IJ subs have been remarkably quiet in the game. This is becasue Steve uses them as tripwires rather than to patrol ports. Allied subs, on the other hand, have been remarkably effective of late, scoring many a long string of attacks, mainly around Anchorage, Sikhalin Island and in the Andaman Sea. On the other hand, my subs around Korea, Japan and the Philippines haven't done a thing (well, they did claim one tanker a week ago).

India: 95th East African Bde. arrives at Socatra, which now has 400 AV. The Japanese should take Calcutta soon, though that usually is a bit tougher than anticipated due to the 4x multiplier. The Allies will be looking for a chance to gang up on a Japanese unit or two, but I have to be careful not to get my guys hung out too far.

China: Still trying to get my guys back into the Changsha/Siangant/Hengyang MLR. Steve is regularly employing 400 bombers against this stack, doing a heckuva lot of damage (that's another neat trick - use 400 bombers in China today, then use them in India tomorrow). I will slowly contract the Lanchow sector to make sure it doesn't get isolated when the time comes to retire from Sian. The new MLR will stretch from the rough-woods hexes north (true) of Chungking through Ankang, Chengte, Changsha, Kweilin, Kunming, and into the mountains close to the Burma border. I could fight effectively if supply wasn't going to be an issue.

North America/Oz: For important reasons that I won't delve into in great detail, I've come up with a plan of action that I'm happy with. Oz needs reinforcement, and I don't want to move into NoPac until my covering bases are large (because, in part, I think Steve will look for this move). So, I'm going to send 32nd Division and a few other units to Oz...but first they are going to help with an invasion of Tarawa and vicinity. A few of the units earmarked for this operation will remain as garrison units while 32nd Div. will eventually move to Oz. Sara and York will provide cover. A couple of slow BBs, two good CAs, and BB Warspite will come along for the ride. The intent is to overwhelm Tarawa and two nearby islands and then move on to Oz as quickly as possible. I will have nearly all my AP available.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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witpqs
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

4/22/42

Carriers: Indomitable is off the map and looks good. She's due for withdrawl in 90 days, so I'll probably do that as soon as she arrives at Capetown (she has 30 SYS and 15 FLT damage; is there any reason to repair damage before withdrawing?).

Yes, perhaps a couple.

1) There is a max damage above which a ship may not withdraw. I don't recall those numbers but her damage sounds high. Start repairs as soon as she hits Cape town.

2) For ships that come back, AFAIK they come back in the same shape they left in. Skip an upgrade, it's still pending when the ship returns. Send it back with damage, the same damage is there when it returns.

BTW, remind me never to rent you a car! [;)] [:D]
princep01
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by princep01 »

witpqs is correct that there are limits on the damage a ship may have and still be withdrawn.  I tried to look it up in the manual, but could not locate it.  My recollection is that it must be below 50% system damage and there is some limit on floation (maybe 0), but I don't recall.
 
However, witpqs is incorrect re the upgrade status of returning ships.  Manual6.9.1 p 139 says they return in th elatest upgrade for their class.  So, if the class of ships upgrades in the period of absence, they come back with the latest upgrade.
 
If you get political points for early withdrawal (and I don't remember) and do not plan to us Indomitable again before mandated withdrawal, that would be a quick way to add to your political point pool. 
 
Finally, you know it has to be in a 9 port, home country port or off map port to w/d.
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witpqs
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by witpqs »

I sure hope you're right about those upgrades (for my PBMs!). Thanks.
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Q-Ball
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Q-Ball »

Dan, PzH plays right to the edge on any rules; trust me. Don't feel bad about going right up to the line, because he will. He's a very good opponent and never broke a HR, but single ship TFs, creative settings for airplanes, etc.....I saw it in just a couple months. Don't feel bad.

That dropping para fragment thing to reduce odds....that alone invites gamey cheats, because that is uber-gamey. Gloves off at that point.

I'm not dissing PzH because he is a gentleman...but will go right up to the HR, right or wrong
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Alfred »

OK, time for a mini ship withdrawal 101 post. The conditions for withdrawal have been relaxed from those applicable to when AE first shipped out.


A. Withdrawal Conditions

1. A ship can be withdrawn once off map irrespective of the condition it is in.

2. On map a ship can only be withdrawn if:

(a) Aggregated damage does not exceed 100
(b) Damage to any single component is less than 50
(c) It is in a port
(c) It is not in one of the offline ship repair modes nor whilst still returning to online from offline repair mode

3. On map locations for ship withdrawal are:

(a) Any level 9 port.

(b) The national home ports of
  • United States - San Francisco
  • Canada - Vancouver
  • India - Karachi
  • Australia - Sydney
  • New Zealand - Wellington

(c) Any level 7 or larger port located:
  • on the US or Canadian West Coast
  • in SE Australia (should be same area which triggers Australian Emergency Reinforcements if enemy LCU enters) plus Perth (which is not in trigger area for Emergency Reinforcements)
  • in New Zealand
  • on Ceylon
  • on Indian west coast (now includes Bombay)

(d) The above on map locations will not allow for withdrawal if the enemy has local air superiority over the port or enemy troops are present.


B. Withdrawal Ramifications

1. Unlike air unit withdrawals, no PPs can be earned by an early withdrawal.

2. Non withdrawal by the due date will incurr a daily PP loss until withdrawal is effected.

3. Ships withdrawn with either unfixed damage or delayed upgrade, have their return date pushed back to effect the required repairs and upgrade. For example if a ship is withdrawn with an estimated period of 18 days to complete existing repairs plus a delayed upgrade period of 15 days, the ship will return 33 days later than it would have if it had been withdrawn in perfect condition.


Alfred
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Canoerebel »

4/23/42 to 4/25/42

Carriers: Japanese position unknown. Allied carriers between Trivandrum and Socatra, close enough to send air squadrons to Ceylon if needed. Thanks for the info on withdrawal, Alfred. Indomitable is eligible to withdraw, but I'll send her to the Capetown yards until it's time for withdrawal. In the Pacific, Sara and York have moved south a bit in preparation for the pending moves on Tarawa and vicinity.

India: Four good American fighter squadrons arrived. A/ and B/ sections of 27th Division will reach Bombay in a couple of days. More is in the pipeline. India is in pretty good shape. It's Oz I'm worried about. :)

Ceylon: I bought the last garrison unit, a restricted Indian brigade, with plans to send her to Diego Garcia. Enemy shipping is moving out of the Andaman Sea. Likely targets are Diego, Ceylon or somewhere around Viz.

China: The beleaugered Chinese army finally pulled back into the MLR from Changsha to Hengyang. It took a drubbing from massed Japanese air for an extended period. The Chinese still hold Sian and Lanchow, but it won't be too much longer before it's time to pull out to consoidate the MLR.

North America: Base building continues apace at Prince Rupert. The Allies are actively reconning all the enemy bases to the northwest. The Tarawa Expeditionary Army should reach Los Angeles over the next few days. The date of embarkation cuold be as soon as four days.

Oz: Quiet and pretty wide open.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Canoerebel »

Here's a comparison of points for three dates: 3/1/42; 4/12/42; and 4/25/42 (except for aircraft losses, which are given only for 4/25):

Japanese Points: 12,913 to 18,959 to 19,334
Allied Points: 8,397 to 7,910 to 8,113

Japanese Men Lost: 453 to 634 to 667
Allied Men Lost: 3,354 to 6,704 to 7,022

Japanese Ships Lost: 55 for 528 points to 97 for 953 points to 112 for 1,082
Allied Ships Lost: 216 for 1734 points to 239 for 1,841 points to 247 for 1,875

Japanese Aircraft Lost: 1,302
Allied Aircraft Lost: 1,875

Japan will pick up alot more "men lost" points when Singapore falls and can score more for takign important bases, especially in India but possibly in Oz also.

Ships is the one area where the Allies are doing well at the moment. In the past two weeks, for instance, the Allies have netted a +100 in points for ships sunk. On an Auto Victory Scale, in which 4x is needed in 1943, that means the Allies have a +400 in ships, which was sufficient to offset the men lost, which included the big stack at Bataan plus quite a few in China. Allied subs are are responsible for all the ship points over this two-week period.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by vettim89 »

<exit lurk mode>

Dan, I know you are an offensive minded player; ergo, planned invasion of Tarawa. I was wondering how Suva, Efate, Luganville, and Pago Pago are looking? The reason I ask is that if you are worried about Autovictory, these represent big potential grabs for Japan. The have a base victory value of 50, 50, 75, and 25. Suva is worth 1750 points for Japan if fully built out! My point being that reinforcing these bases may be more in your interest in terms of avoiding autovictory than a Gilberts operation. They also would be less exposed and more capable of having mutually supporting bases nearby. The only reason I point this out is that you have indicated numerous times that you beleive your opponent is thinking in terms of Autovictory. If that is true, you may want to look at these areas as they represetn huge chunks of VP that can be taken "on the cheap".

<re-enter lurk mode>
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Canoerebel »

Those are good thoughts, Tim. I definitely think Steve is assembling a puzzle that leads to auto victory, so Noumea, Fiji and even New Zealand could work into his plans at some point.

My current plan, which will be under evaluation until it takes place, if ever, is to overhwelm Tarawa and adjacent islands, all of which are believed lightly held, and to then leave behind fairly small garrisons wihile deploying 32nd Div. and some of the regiment-sized units further south. Sending 32nd to Noumea or Fiji might be a very good call. (If things heat up in the meantime, I can forego Tarawa in favor of an immediate deployment further south).

Steve hasn't shown anything in SoPac yet. I have three combat TFs more or less on perpetual patrol in the area between Tarawa and Fiji, so I'm pretty confident in saying he hasn't been sniffing around, though that may change at any moment.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Lomri »


Any movement in the Solomons? This area sounds like it hasn't had a lot of activity so your readers, or at least THIS reader, isn't sure if anything interesting is going on down there besides PM. How about Canton or TB? (TB being that one with the light industry with a 60k stack limit that I can't remember how to spell).
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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

Post by Canoerebel »

4/26/42

My children and I came up with a saying while watching the movie Defiance earlier this summer. At one point in this drama, which deals with Jewish resistance to the Nazis in Belarus, the main character, named Tuvia, appears with white dust coating some of his facial hair. When this happened, I spoke up to add these lines to the movie: "Tuvia, what the heck? Your eyebrows are white!"

In the game, today I say: "Steve, what the heck? Seven IJA divisions are at Singapore!"

Singers: Seven IJA divisions are present, including 53rd fresh from Tokyo, and 38th and 56th fresh from Port Blair. Singers is out of supply, so Steve might overwhelm the garrison in short order, freeing up a big army to go elsewhere and considerably shortening his LOC to India, but man, I think this is a mistake on his part. Singapore could be left to wither on the vine while he inserted that army in Oz or India to really drive home his advantage. If Singers ends up holding on like Clark Field did....well, that would really hurt Steve.

Carriers: I know where mine are. I don't know where Steve's are. Indestructibe just arrived at Capetown.

India: Even before discovering the whereabouts (Singers) of the two divisions late at Port Blair, I felt like Steve doesn't have enough to handle things in India. If he's not careful, he'll find himself on the defensive. On the other hand, if I'm not carefuly I could get irreplaceable units isolated and destroyed. So a very tense game is going on in this theater. 18th Div. is ashore at Goa and heading to Surat. I don't particularly want to reveal too much about what units I have in India right now. I am concerened that Steve will figure out just how weak Oz is at the moment. If he sends those seven Singers divisions to Perth or Townsville, I'm going to have a problem. Not that seven divisions could take Sydney or Melbourne, but that he could take bases in close enough proxmity to permit strategic bombing, which will give him alot of Victory Points. That is a real and present danger. In fact, unless he gets moving in India, that's the biggest threat I could face (well, toss in China too, of course).

China: I've issued ordered to evacuate Sian. This will be the first time I've lost this key base. I can hold on at Lanchow for a bit, but pretty quickly I'll have to withdraw there to keep MLR integrity. I'm a little concerend about the attrition my Changsha sector troops suffered in the recent ill-fated offensive, but that sector has to rely on itself for its defense. Perhaps some of the disruption will heal fairly quickly. Here's hoping.

North America: Quiet. Only one of the Tarawa/Noumea/Oz troops has made it to Los Angeles. This will take another few days.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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