Here we go again! tc464 (A) vs. Mike (J) - No tc464

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
For all frontline air units (land based only), I try to keep the unit maxed out in planes and extra pilots as well.

Roger that.

I usually have 10% or so of the pilots as inferior pilots. Should they survive, their experience will increase very quickly. If they die, well, c'est la guerre!

No can do, Mike-san. IMHO, they've got to be ready to do their job when they go to the front lines and have the minimal skills trained for at the training squadrons (e.g., 50 EXP; mid-60s skill du jour; 50 DEF). They train up faster in the training squadrons than they do in combat and are much more likely to not become a big smear on the tarmac from an OPS loss too.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In this game, when I trained up a pilot, it was for experience and one stat. So, I never trained up TB pilots for naval search or bombing, only torpedo bombing. Not so this time.


IJNAF:

Torpedo Bomber pilots (Kates and Netties) - torpedo bombing, ASW, naval search (I'm reluctant to train them on ground bombing because I want them to go after ships, not get all shot up hitting ground targets.)

Just wanted to check in with you for skill training. You say "torpedo bombing". Did you mean "NavT" or "Torpedo attack and (naval) bombing" two separate skills? I will ensure my Kate pilots be trained up on NavB skills too. Still vascillating on the recon or NavS skill development merits. What exactly (and nothing more) is the minimum proficiency here for them to be able to sight a large enemy TF at sea? That's the rub. I certainly won't train them to 60-70-that would take too long.

I've found myself training a large number of IJAAF pilots for LowNav bombing skills-those used for Kamikaze attacks later in the war. My goal is to be able to keep Kamikaze skills in the 55-65 range-it should translate into more damage later in the war.

Agree on IJAAF ASW training. It takes a long time for them to get up to 70 skill, but once they do, they're effective.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I usually have 10% or so of the pilots as inferior pilots. Should they survive, their experience will increase very quickly. If they die, well, c'est la guerre!

No can do, Mike-san. IMHO, they've got to be ready to do their job when they go to the front lines and have the minimal skills trained for at the training squadrons (e.g., 50 EXP; mid-60s skill du jour; 50 DEF). They train up faster in the training squadrons than they do in combat and are much more likely to not become a big smear on the tarmac from an OPS loss too.

Agreed. Worse, they just skill the allied pilots and so exacerbate future battles.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

What's this "reduced transport capacity" thing? I haven't heard of that. Sounds tough.

There was some talk about Japanese economy, and general consensus is, that both sides have too much merchant capacity. Treespider have made a MOD, where he increased need for resources, and modified somehow Allied economies, but that hardly fixed the problem.
So, the other proposition is to reduce somehow merchant ship capacities. There is DaBabes Scenario, which implement that, and I recently began experimenting with it. It seems generally to be simply implemented in sheet exported by WITPloadAE. You probably have most data, about in-game Japanese Merchant Fleet, so can probably come with right numbers. Solution is generic, but I am guessing, if someone would want to dig deeper, the reduction should be based on fuel-per-transported_ton, so Japanese merchants would be economically worth around the same, no matter their capacity.

I don't know if I ever figured out how long to train up a pilot. I have the raw data somewhere so I can figure it out but I pulled 3 months out of my butt for the sake of argument. If anyone has any better guess, sing out please.

Around two months ago there was detailed experiment on this topic (and yes, around 3 months for 70 skill). General conclusion was, that neither leader skill, nor number of planes (yes, they train even with 0 planes) help much during training. An interesting fact is that training green pilot into 60 skill takes same amount of time, as training pilot from 60 to 70. So if you go for lower number, you can train TWO pilots in time, you would normally get an 70 skill expert.

Remember, that you can also use Float Planes for training, and expanding their groups is very easy.
Also, NICKs can be useful in Burma (since they have armor, and early Hurricanes are armed only with .303), but after a while they suck horribly, so you either would use them as unescorted bomber destroyer, or change them into strafing/attack aircraft.
Patrol Planes are hideously expensive, and vulnerable, but they carry 2 torpedoes. They can be great in night attacks, if group is large enough, so NavT can be useful.

2. The faster you can pull pilots out of the training queue, the fewer HI you have to spend on them. Many will argue that this is very little HI, but my philosophy is that every HI you put into your pool for end game is a great thing.

The number seems small in the beginning, but in 1944 Japan will crank out 1100 pilots per month.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Tracker works with the Betas, just be sure to use the .dll with the Betas (by copying it in your Tracker folder).

If you use the versions (they run in parallel) of the Beta that have the expanded pilot pool array, check the Tracker thread. They are planning to support it, but I'm not certain it does so yet.

Yes - it does work with the methodology that witpqs mentions.

We have implemented the increase pilot array; will be available in the net release, yet to be determined.

@Mike - if you're running AE somehow on a Mac, then you can run Tracker.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



I've found myself training a large number of IJAAF pilots for LowNav bombing skills-those used for Kamikaze attacks later in the war. My goal is to be able to keep Kamikaze skills in the 55-65 range-it should translate into more damage later in the war.

Agree on IJAAF ASW training. It takes a long time for them to get up to 70 skill, but once they do, they're effective.

Hi Chickenboy and anyone else that wants to contribute..... I was thinking about starting a thread on the very same subject... The IJAAF in regards to Low Nav training I was thinking after the intial crop of IJAAF trained ASW recruits graduate , delegate one group of bombers to LowNav training... Do you all think 90 to 110 days in is too early to start training pilots for kamikazee duty?

Thanks..[:)]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I usually have 10% or so of the pilots as inferior pilots. Should they survive, their experience will increase very quickly. If they die, well, c'est la guerre!

No can do, Mike-san. IMHO, they've got to be ready to do their job when they go to the front lines and have the minimal skills trained for at the training squadrons (e.g., 50 EXP; mid-60s skill du jour; 50 DEF). They train up faster in the training squadrons than they do in combat and are much more likely to not become a big smear on the tarmac from an OPS loss too.

I have to echo what Chickenboy is saying. My Ops losses are through the roof and it's because I added inexperienced pilots to frontline units for just such "Training" and they've certainly left their mark all right. One year into the conflict and I have 1600+ Ops losses. Realizing this I've completely changed my philosophy on how to handle trainees. They train behind the lines...period.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



I've found myself training a large number of IJAAF pilots for LowNav bombing skills-those used for Kamikaze attacks later in the war. My goal is to be able to keep Kamikaze skills in the 55-65 range-it should translate into more damage later in the war.

Agree on IJAAF ASW training. It takes a long time for them to get up to 70 skill, but once they do, they're effective.

Hi Chickenboy and anyone else that wants to contribute..... I was thinking about starting a thread on the very same subject... The IJAAF in regards to Low Nav training I was thinking after the intial crop of IJAAF trained ASW recruits graduate , delegate one group of bombers to LowNav training... Do you all think 90 to 110 days in is too early to start training pilots for kamikazee duty?

Thanks..[:)]

Hasn't the group determined that you can get pilots trained in a single skill to ~70 in ~3 months? Some who have timed it indicate that you can get a group to circa 60 in about half (!) that time. So, figure LowNav at 1.5-2 months per recruit for a basic trained kamikaze pilot, right?

As far as when to *start* training for Kamikaze duty in the grand scheme of things? Tough question. When can Allied and Japanese players start using the benefits of hindsight and game mechanics? From day one. I can see the argument that it's unrealistically early for the Jap player to train Kamis on day one, but it's shades of gray. I'd be interested in hearing the arguments.

ETA: I suspect a reason this hasn't been a major issue has been the lack of AAR-reported games in mid-44 or later. Precious few have seen / discussed their kamikaze experiences for debate or HR development.

[PaxMondo]

Well, LowNav has its uses prior to kami.  Nice to have with your Netties when you are attacking non-combat ship TF's.  Also in conjunction with ASW seems to improve hits in ASW.  Seems is relevant here as I haven't tested this, it is only observations.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In this game, when I trained up a pilot, it was for experience and one stat. So, I never trained up TB pilots for naval search or bombing, only torpedo bombing. Not so this time.


IJNAF:

Torpedo Bomber pilots (Kates and Netties) - torpedo bombing, ASW, naval search (I'm reluctant to train them on ground bombing because I want them to go after ships, not get all shot up hitting ground targets.)

Just wanted to check in with you for skill training. You say "torpedo bombing". Did you mean "NavT" or "Torpedo attack and (naval) bombing" two separate skills? I will ensure my Kate pilots be trained up on NavB skills too. Still vascillating on the recon or NavS skill development merits. What exactly (and nothing more) is the minimum proficiency here for them to be able to sight a large enemy TF at sea? That's the rub. I certainly won't train them to 60-70-that would take too long.

I've found myself training a large number of IJAAF pilots for LowNav bombing skills-those used for Kamikaze attacks later in the war. My goal is to be able to keep Kamikaze skills in the 55-65 range-it should translate into more damage later in the war.

Agree on IJAAF ASW training. It takes a long time for them to get up to 70 skill, but once they do, they're effective.

Finally taking some time to respond to all these great messages....

I meant NavT. I forgot about NavB. That needs to be trained on as well. Gotta be able to use those Kates when the torps are gone and we're chasing the remnants of the Allied fleet, don't we? [:D]

LovNav - Sheesh, I don't recall that at all. [:(] Gotta remember that. When do you start to train Kamikazes?

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I usually have 10% or so of the pilots as inferior pilots. Should they survive, their experience will increase very quickly. If they die, well, c'est la guerre!

No can do, Mike-san. IMHO, they've got to be ready to do their job when they go to the front lines and have the minimal skills trained for at the training squadrons (e.g., 50 EXP; mid-60s skill du jour; 50 DEF). They train up faster in the training squadrons than they do in combat and are much more likely to not become a big smear on the tarmac from an OPS loss too.

Agreed. Worse, they just skill the allied pilots and so exacerbate future battles.

You guys convinced me. Someone made the comment about how they end up training the Allied pilots faster. You're right. Here's a question for the group - What's the lowest exp/skill you will consider putting in a frontline unit?

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Tracker works with the Betas, just be sure to use the .dll with the Betas (by copying it in your Tracker folder).

If you use the versions (they run in parallel) of the Beta that have the expanded pilot pool array, check the Tracker thread. They are planning to support it, but I'm not certain it does so yet.

Yes - it does work with the methodology that witpqs mentions.

We have implemented the increase pilot array; will be available in the net release, yet to be determined.

@Mike - if you're running AE somehow on a Mac, then you can run Tracker.

Ok, what's the "expanded pilot pool array/increase pilot array"?

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I usually have 10% or so of the pilots as inferior pilots. Should they survive, their experience will increase very quickly. If they die, well, c'est la guerre!

No can do, Mike-san. IMHO, they've got to be ready to do their job when they go to the front lines and have the minimal skills trained for at the training squadrons (e.g., 50 EXP; mid-60s skill du jour; 50 DEF). They train up faster in the training squadrons than they do in combat and are much more likely to not become a big smear on the tarmac from an OPS loss too.

I have to echo what Chickenboy is saying. My Ops losses are through the roof and it's because I added inexperienced pilots to frontline units for just such "Training" and they've certainly left their mark all right. One year into the conflict and I have 1600+ Ops losses. Realizing this I've completely changed my philosophy on how to handle trainees. They train behind the lines...period.

Thanks Lemon. Sorry you learned the hard way.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Tracker works with the Betas, just be sure to use the .dll with the Betas (by copying it in your Tracker folder).

If you use the versions (they run in parallel) of the Beta that have the expanded pilot pool array, check the Tracker thread. They are planning to support it, but I'm not certain it does so yet.

Yes - it does work with the methodology that witpqs mentions.

We have implemented the increase pilot array; will be available in the net release, yet to be determined.

@Mike - if you're running AE somehow on a Mac, then you can run Tracker.

Ok, what's the "expanded pilot pool array/increase pilot array"?

In one of the beta's, the max pilot pool size was increased due to end game requirements. Tracker will make the change in their next update. Right now, tracker just truncates based upon the original pool size. Not problem until late game, and then not every game will hit the limit anyway.

[Mike Solli]

Question for the group: The IJNAF begins the war with exactly 60 fighter slots in restricted HQs, allowing the training of 80 fighter pilots at a time. That's about 25 a month. Not nearly enough. Can Petes, or any other float planes, fly sweep or escort missions? If so, they can be used to train fighter pilots.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Question for the group: The IJNAF begins the war with exactly 60 fighter slots in restricted HQs, allowing the training of 80 fighter pilots at a time. That's about 25 a month. Not nearly enough. Can Petes, or any other float planes, fly sweep or escort missions? If so, they can be used to train fighter pilots.

Yes and yes. Although expanding these groups explicitly for the purpose of pilot training capacity is a bone of contention with some. I have no such compunctions about training IJNAF fighter pilots on the regularly-sized float units.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Question for the group: The IJNAF begins the war with exactly 60 fighter slots in restricted HQs, allowing the training of 80 fighter pilots at a time. That's about 25 a month. Not nearly enough. Can Petes, or any other float planes, fly sweep or escort missions? If so, they can be used to train fighter pilots.

Yes and yes. Although expanding these groups explicitly for the purpose of pilot training capacity is a bone of contention with some. I have no such compunctions about training IJNAF fighter pilots on the regularly-sized float units.

Thanks Chickenboy. Historically, float planes were used (rather unsuccessfully) as fighters by the Japanese. I see no reason why we can't use them as trainers.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

No can do, Mike-san. IMHO, they've got to be ready to do their job when they go to the front lines and have the minimal skills trained for at the training squadrons (e.g., 50 EXP; mid-60s skill du jour; 50 DEF). They train up faster in the training squadrons than they do in combat and are much more likely to not become a big smear on the tarmac from an OPS loss too.

Agreed. Worse, they just skill the allied pilots and so exacerbate future battles.

You guys convinced me. Someone made the comment about how they end up training the Allied pilots faster. You're right. Here's a question for the group - What's the lowest exp/skill you will consider putting in a frontline unit?

EXP: I "like" for it to be >45. If I have a pilot very skilled in primary skill and DEF that's less than that, then I'll put him in, but I try to not put too many below 45 in my pools.

SKILL: Depends on the function. GRDB? Anything north of 50-55 is fair game.

NavT, NavB, Escort, Sweep? I want as close to 70 as possible, without clogging up my training groups. Will accept mid-60s if I have to move pilots through the system.

LowNav? Depends on what I'm using this for. I have a number of IJAAF bombers trained up to ~70 on this for naval interdiction-as a complement to IJNAF Netties. Most of my LowNav trained pilots, by number, are pre-trained Kamikaze pilots. Anything north of 55-60 is good here.

Recon / NavSearch? >55.

Transport? Lowest of the bunch. Anything >40 is OK so's I don't crack up too many transport aircraft.

DEF: You didn't ask about this, but I like minimum defense to be >50 for my fighter units. Non-combatants can get by with less.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Question for the group: The IJNAF begins the war with exactly 60 fighter slots in restricted HQs, allowing the training of 80 fighter pilots at a time. That's about 25 a month. Not nearly enough. Can Petes, or any other float planes, fly sweep or escort missions? If so, they can be used to train fighter pilots.

Yes and yes. Although expanding these groups explicitly for the purpose of pilot training capacity is a bone of contention with some. I have no such compunctions about training IJNAF fighter pilots on the regularly-sized float units.

Thanks Chickenboy. Historically, float planes were used (rather unsuccessfully) as fighters by the Japanese. I see no reason why we can't use them as trainers.

Yes. I remember reading of their involvement(s) in the Solomons in particular. The Rex doesn't look atrocious as a fighter unit-particularly in a pinch.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
When do you start to train Kamikazes?

December 8, 1941.

Oh, alright-that's an exaggeration. [:D] I started in earnest after about 6 months of game time.