You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Close Combat - Cross of Iron is based on Atomic Games award Winning Close Combat Series. Close Combat is a real time game were you take command of German or Soviet squads on the Eastern Front during World War II. This version is being developed by CSO Simtek and will include many new features and improvements.
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Hertston
So basically it just comes down to whether you are a 'fan' or not whether you lob off 30% or not?

I rarely bring the score down because of personal negative bias. I bring the score UP when I have positive bias, though. Readers know that. I tell them in no uncertain words "look people I hate/love this game, and I'll tell you why I love it/hate it and if you happen to disagree screw you". What's the fun of being reviewer in a big magazine in a small country if you can't speak up your mind and write long love letters to games you enjoy, and hate letters to everything by HPS? [:D]

Reviewers have to be biased - there's no such thing as "objective game review" (a GAME ffs!), and that's OK. Whoever says otherwise is just being dishonest and pretentious, or worse.
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Monkeys Brain
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Monkeys Brain »

ORIGINAL: David Heath

Hi Guys

Look I do not mind these debates but I want the tone to be a little nicer.

Hi Mario / Monkey Brain (Love your handle) You simple post the same issues over and over and over and over and over... get the point. You done this on other forums and I do not want that to start here. Post it once give it out of your system and drop it.

Hi Oleg - I Don't alway agree with you but you normally conduct yourself in a good manner. I understand you do not like have we are re-releasing some of our games but that is the way we are doing it.

So everyone please take a step back and lets not turn this into a bigger issue then it needs to be.


OK agreed [:)]
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by genozaur »

The price for CoI is NOT high, even taking into account that this is a re-release of CCIII.
And you know why? Because this game (CCIII\CoI) is a very well-balanced entertainment product with historically CLOSE simulation at the company\batallion level of real war battles during the most extraordinary campaign of the WWII (as compared to the today's prices for gas, movies, hockey, bottled water, and iced tea).
I, senior Lt of the Soviet Army, wonder if a lot of gamers could repeat my deed (CCIII version, historically accurate settings) and defeat the Nazi war machine in the very first battle of the campaign.

Don't try to make good things perfect,
just make them better.
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Zap
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Zap »

I bought it last night with the physical shipment as well. I liked the game years ago but I did not have this one. So I'm a happy camper. Price? what price, all I see is hours of game enjoyment!
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m5000.2006
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by m5000.2006 »

i paid 53 EUR (tax and shipping including) and i don't think it's that high

i do own CC2, CC3, CC4 and CC5

although, CoI is a kind of remake of CC3, it isn't just A remake - it's been patched, improved graphically, and most importantly, it will be supported with at least patches, CC3's been dead for years as far as support is concerned...

besides, the whole proces of mod installation is now part of the game, which makes it more professional, easier and more convenient

support of CSO is also a factor

and of course, hopefully, my money will be used to publish more CC titles...
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civdiv
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by civdiv »

ORIGINAL: LitFuel
I'm still trying to figure out why you even bothered posting, you obviously have no love for the CC series. [8|]

I just wandered in here to see if the new version of CC had been released. I see it has and I see I won't be buying it. And what a completely insulting reply! I own every CC game in the series as well as a lot of the mods. Currently I have one CC game loaded on this system, and two older CCs complete with oodles of mods loaded on an older system. And I won't pay $39.99 or $49.99 for this current game. $20 or $25 maybe, but even $25 seems too high. And that doesn't mean that I have no love for the CC series. 'Demonstrate your love of the CC series by giving us money.' $40-50 is for fully developed games, not for slightly modded re-releases. I don't care about 'new features', not at that price. You release a game that is what, 80-90% of the same code as a eight year old game and has the cost of a game you developed from start to finish?!?! You guys have been smoking crack.

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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by LitFuel »

See ya!!!...you don't get it and you never will. The same tired oh it's old code response...please, give me a break...if it's good gaming it's still good gaming no matter the age... and I find it insulting that you would knock the people who did work on it. You will probably be around for CC6 and then have no memory of how it got to that point...it's one thing to decide to not to buy it( I have no problem with that) but another to come in and blast it for no good reason other then to hear yourself being grumpy and complain about the price. That's the insult to people who do enjoy and support it. The fact you still have the games loaded and obviously take mods from a site that supports it is rather ironic I think.
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by civdiv »

ORIGINAL: Hertston
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

CC3 91% (3 pgs.); CC4 82%; CC5 90% (2 pgs.), EYSA 64%, CoI 65%

Whoa! A pattern emerges again.... [:D]

Only one of inconsistency. How can any reviewer that would score CC3 26% higher than a game that everybody (except, seemingly you) acknowledges is superior to the original release expect to have any credibility at all? Even the 'age' argument doesn't cut it - the only thing that is relevant there is graphics and they couldn't have changed those significantly further (i.e to a modern 3D engine or such) without it no longer being Close Combat.



That is one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on these foums, and that is saying a bit. Yeah, a game that is equivelent to a game that came out 8 years ago should get the same score as the old game got. Sure, right, whatever.

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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: civdiv

That is one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on these foums, and that is saying a bit. Yeah, a game that is equivelent to a game that came out 8 years ago should get the same score as the old game got. Sure, right, whatever.

Let's just say I'll take your comment on board with all the respect it deserves. [8|]

Perhaps you might like to explain why a game should be automatically be scored down to that degree because of age (and CoI is an improved version, remember). Perhaps you can point out all the of the games released in that time that are so much more entertaining to play, or do the same job so much better? I seem to have missed them.
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by civdiv »

ORIGINAL: LitFuel

See ya!!!...you don't get it and you never will. The same tired oh it's old code response...please, give me a break...if it's good gaming it's still good gaming no matter the age... and I find it insulting that you would knock the people who did work on it. You will probably be around for CC6 and then have no memory of how it got to that point...it's one thing to decide to not to buy it( I have no problem with that) but another to come in and blast it for no good reason other then to hear yourself being grumpy and complain about the price. That's the insult to people who do enjoy and support it. The fact you still have the games loaded and obviously take mods from a site that supports it is rather ironic I think.

No, the point is your ludicrous opinion that not buying this game means we don't care about the CC series. That is insulting and just plain dumb. If you were to admit that you said something dumb I wouldn't be so angry. But as you have now replied you obviously believe that crappola you just spouted. Feel free to correct me on that.

Your point about the code argument being 'old' is likewise complete BS. If 80-90% of the code is being re-used, why is the price that of an in-house development? If the price-point is to subsidize CC6, then again, I will choose not to buy the game. And the claims that $40-50 is less than a regular new release is just plain a lie. Probably 95% of the games you see on the shelf at Best Buy or Circuit City start at $49.99 or less. Given, there are in-house 'niche' games from small independant game houses (Like Matrix) that produce games like WiTP, and I have no problem with the $60-70 price. Those are not games that are going to be old after 20 hours playing or next year when the new and improved version 1.1 comes out as a new release. Games like WiTP will be playable in 5 years or even in 10. But using backwards logic to try and lump CoI in with games like that is completely disingenuous.

Bottom-line, you spend 10% of the time it would take to develop a game that is already 8 years old but then charge full price. I think the price has more to do with Matrix thinking the strong but weakening CC community needs its 'fix' rather than an honest reflection of the cost involved to mod the game.

And yes, I will be around if and when CC6 gets released. And if it turns out to be CC5.1 I won't buy it either, at least at the current price-point.

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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by civdiv »

ORIGINAL: Hertston
ORIGINAL: civdiv

That is one of the dumbest comments I have ever seen on these foums, and that is saying a bit. Yeah, a game that is equivelent to a game that came out 8 years ago should get the same score as the old game got. Sure, right, whatever.

Let's just say I'll take your comment on board with all the respect it deserves. [8|]

Perhaps you might like to explain why a game should be automatically be scored down to that degree because of age (and CoI is an improved version, remember). Perhaps you can point out all the of the games released in that time that are so much more entertaining to play, or do the same job so much better? I seem to have missed them.

Because it's old ground that has already been covered and does not take advantage of the improvements in user interfaces, computing power, graphics power, monitors, etc? And this isn't a different game, it's a re-release. If someone copied CC but came up with a new game engine but the results were visually and in terms of game play, pretty much identical, do you think it would garner a good review?

If someone 'invented' Civilization I right now, do you think it would do well? CC was a revolutionary when it first came out. CCIII was arguably the best game in the series. But that was before games like the Battlefront series, CoH, Blitzkreig, Band of Brothers, etc, raised the bar. Yes, none fit right into the niche that the CC series invented, but all moved the genre forward.

And the market itself tells you that you are wrong. If companies were just releasing Civilization, Halo, Halflife, CMBO, etc, even you can admit they would go out of business. There were Civilization II and III and IV, Halo 2, Halflife 2, CMBB/CMAK (and now CMSF). Eash was a evalutionary improvement on the old release (Arguably some are revolutionary). CoI is not an evolutionary improvement to CC, it's a compilation of a bunch of user developed mods with a few tweaks with the same old tired game engine.

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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by m5000.2006 »

ORIGINAL: civdiv
[...]CoI is not an evolutionary improvement to CC, it's a compilation of a bunch of user developed mods with a few tweaks with the same old tired game engine.

civdiv


maybe one of the reasons why they didn't want to change the engine or make too radical changes was to keep the game copmpatible with the old mods and maps

now, mods need to be altered for CoI, but i hear these are not substantial changes, and correct me if i'm wrong, maps can stay the same as the old CCIII's

i suppose that if they had changed the engine and had turned it into something like, say, Blitzkrieg II, then all the mods and maps would be totally useless...

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.
"I don't much care where –" said Alice.
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.
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civdiv
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by civdiv »

ORIGINAL: m5000.2006

ORIGINAL: civdiv
[...]CoI is not an evolutionary improvement to CC, it's a compilation of a bunch of user developed mods with a few tweaks with the same old tired game engine.

civdiv


maybe one of the reasons why they didn't want to change the engine or make too radical changes was to keep the game copmpatible with the old mods and maps

now, mods need to be altered for CoI, but i hear these are not substantial changes, and correct me if i'm wrong, maps can stay the same as the old CCIII's

i suppose that if they had changed the engine and had turned it into something like, say, Blitzkrieg II, then all the mods and maps would be totally useless...


The issue isn't why they didn't update the game engine, the issue is why are we paying full price for an 8 year old re-release.

Look, just in this topic are like 6 people who said they wouldn't pay for the game at this price, but would if it were $25-30 or so. So add in the lurkers who are reading the exchanges but don't chime in and the number of them that won't buy it based in part on this discussion. Then add in all of those who don't read the forums but simply won't pay full price for the game. How many is that, and after what, 5 weeks? I mean, based on the number of posters on each side of this discussion, discounting admins and developers, I'd say you lost 30-40% of buyers.

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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Andrew Williams »

25-30 is no good if it takes 31 to produce.

all hypothetical figures, of course.
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Hertston »

ORIGINAL: civdiv

Because it's old ground that has already been covered and does not take advantage of the improvements in user interfaces, computing power, graphics power, monitors, etc?

CoI does regarding monitors, but that apart you are just repeating yourself. Why does it have to take advantage of them in order to avoid a 25% deduction before they are even booted up? CC does what it does; it's hard to see how the overhead graphics could be much improved and there simply is nothing wrong with the UI. I could name games that do all those things that are absolute crap. I could also name games that do none of them, and were well worth the 80% plus they scored from professional reviewers. It could do with an AI boost.. but so could every other wargame I've played over those 8 years.

And this isn't a different game, it's a re-release. If someone copied CC but came up with a new game engine but the results were visually and in terms of game play, pretty much identical, do you think it would garner a good review?

Yup. But they haven't. When they do your point might have some merit.

And the market itself tells you that you are wrong. If companies were just releasing Civilization, Halo, Halflife, CMBO, etc, even you can admit they would go out of business. There were Civilization II and III and IV, Halo 2, Halflife 2, CMBB/CMAK (and now CMSF). Eash was a evalutionary improvement on the old release (Arguably some are revolutionary). CoI is not an evolutionary improvement to CC, it's a compilation of a bunch of user developed mods with a few tweaks with the same old tired game engine.

You are generalising based on a totally different market. The demand for 'classic' CC to be made available again was unique, and that is what was provided. 'New' CC is on the way - hopefully.

Look, just in this topic are like 6 people who said they wouldn't pay for the game at this price, but would if it were $25-30 or so. So add in the lurkers who are reading the exchanges but don't chime in and the number of them that won't buy it based in part on this discussion. Then add in all of those who don't read the forums but simply won't pay full price for the game. How many is that, and after what, 5 weeks? I mean, based on the number of posters on each side of this discussion, discounting admins and developers, I'd say you lost 30-40% of buyers.

By my calculations, a 35 or 40% loss would still put them ahead. Probably a little more, allowing for overhead allocation on each sale. And, of course, as is always the case how many of those people would actually have bought it if it had been a whopping $10 cheaper?

'We' are paying what is actually $10 less than 'full price' because that is the price Matrix believe will maximise their own profit, and allow the maximum amount to be invested in continued development of CC. It's that simple. Maybe a cheaper price would yield more revenue, maybe not, but nobody has provided a remotely convincing case that they know the market better than Matrix. If it's too expensive, there is no obligation for people to buy it.


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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: civdiv

The issue isn't why they didn't update the game engine, the issue is why are we paying full price for an 8 year old re-release.

"We" aren't, although I and a lot of others folks did.

There's no way that the residual sales that would be generated by bargain-bin pricing would have generated enough revenue for it to have been worth the publisher's while to f**k with. Likewise, giving the game away would have done nothing to help capitalize the developers for future projects. The alternative for CC fans is to simply allow the game(s) to die as the supply of CC3 available on Ebay dries up, and those already in gamers hands slowly but surely succumb to wear and age. Is that what you want, or is it simply free or price-compromised gaming software, stuff that's valueless by virtue of its over-availability?

I purchased both the download and CD versions of CoI. I've paid a lot more for a lot less. It's a good investment in a game that can endure, if it's allowed to do so, your profoundest concerns, notwithstanding.

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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by old man of the sea »

This thread is still kicking?
 
Should I drink another bottle of mead and post again?
 
E
 
 
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: old man of the sea

This thread is still kicking?

Should I drink another bottle of mead and post again?

E


I've followed this for while now, also.

It reminds me of a line from a Theodore Roethke poem, I Knew A Women:

She moves in circles, and those circles move.

AFAIK, there are no female contributors.

Have one on me, Eric.

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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: old man of the sea
This thread is still kicking?

Should I drink another bottle of mead and post again?

Please do. I somehow missed your last mead-induced post until it was too late - pity, though, as I did feel the belated impulse to drift into a "why Dalmatia should be independent country" tirade. Now this place and time seem good enough as any [:D]
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RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price.

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