'stuffing' the border

[lavisj]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead
Jerome, could you explain how that works, as far as helping GE break the pact in '41? Also, is IT DOWing Lithuania still an option? I thought that it was decided that IT cannot cross the GE/USSR border until GE and USSR are at war. Therefore, IT cannot put USSR units in enemy ZOC unless they are adjacent to Lithuanian border.
Thanks
John

John,

DoW Lithuania or Hungary serves the sole purpose. Now here is the reasoning.
Unless the chit differential is huge one way or another, the ability of Germany to break the stuff is played on 10 points or less. Therefore the reasoning is to remove around 5 points worth of garrisoning Russians.
To do this the only way is to ZOC them, or flip them. The Italians can accomplish both.
Now the limitations on the Italians is that once at war with the USSR they can not be within the common border area, and so can not be in german hexes within 3 hexes of the Russo-German border. Of course they could still use long range nav and bombers to fly over the baltic, but they loose the benefit of surprise and their targets are very limited.

So really, Italy needs a common border with the USSR.
Now IT is further limited that they can not cross the East Poland partition line, even if they own Poland, making an Italian conquest of POland useless.
That leaves only Lithuania, Hungary and Rumania as a possibility. Rumania is too usefull, therefore Lithuania or Hungary seems best.

Basically, have IT DoW Hugary (or Lithhuania), have germans kill the units and then have the Italians conquer it. Now Italians land units and planes can base in Hungary or Lithuania can:
1. Have a surprise Ground Strike on the Russians.
2. Advance land troops into East Poland and ZOC some russias.

This should be enough to allow Germany to break the pact during the subsequent impulse.

More than likely though, once your intention becomes clear, it is very likely that the Russian player will abandon the stuff (I know I would).

Hungary seems better than Lithuanis for the reason that it is harder for the Russians to be away from Hungary than Lithuanis.... and Russia could always preemptively DoW Italy and liberate Lithuania. While doing so in Hungary is much harder.

One should also consider that German troops can advance into Russia on the wake of Italian units (although they would not count as garrisons anymore).

I hope that clears it up.

Jerome

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

Agreed, if both sides did not house rule the stuff, then it is only fair for the USSR to use the stuffing option as a strategy.
Then you would have no issue with IT DoW Hungary in order to make sure that Germany can break the pact in 41.

Jerome, could you explain how that works, as far as helping GE break the pact in '41? Also, is IT DOWing Lithuania still an option? I thought that it was decided that IT cannot cross the GE/USSR border until GE and USSR are at war. Therefore, IT cannot put USSR units in enemy ZOC unless they are adjacent to Lithuanian border.

Thanks

John

Italian units can't cross the partition line in Poland, so Italy taking out Poland is useless. They can cross the Hungary-USSR and Lithuania-USSR borders if at war with Russia.

I suppose a question to ADG about where the partition line begins and ends might impact that view. AFAIK it has not been asked. Popular opinion is that it only applies to where Germany and Russia decided they would slice up Poland.

[Skanvak]

Could have the old rules as an option? Or even a free diplomacy option :p

[ItBurns]

In context of MWiF my main question is:  will the AI stuff?

[Extraneous]

I am going to assume the German/Soviet partition line in Poland would be the border of Eastern Poland and Germany (but a question on the actual partition line would be a good idea).
 
 
If the German/Soviet partition line in Poland is the border of Eastern Poland and Germany:
 
Kaunas the capitol of Lithuania and most of the rest of Lithuania would be under the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule when the USSR occupies Eastern Poland.
 
Riga the capitol of Latvia on the other hand would be beyond the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule. Latvia can be quickly invaded and conquered at the end of the turn.
 
 
Impulse 1: Italy rails an infantry corps to a port on the Baltic Sea to a waiting German AMPH.
 
The Italian infantry corps has to be reorganized at the end of this impulse.
 
Impulse 2: Italy has DoWs LATVIA. The USSR has occupies Eastern Poland.
 
The German navy sails to land the Italian land unit to capture Riga.
 
Now Italy can DoW the USSR.
 
Even if the USSR occupies the other Baltic States the Italians are behind the German/USSR common border and the partition line.
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Could have the old rules as an option? Or even a free diplomacy option :p

There are 80 optional rules already. And I am having trouble coding all of those for the initial release. More options are unlikely (to say the least).

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ItBurns

In context of MWiF my main question is:  will the AI stuff?

Yes, but not as fervently as some (most?) USSR players.

The purpose of the neutrality pact chits is to make it difficult for Germany to break the pact. The AI Opponent will choose whether to augment those chits with a strong front line at the border, depending on a host of other considerations. If Germany neglects the border and makes it easy for the USSR to 'stuff' the border - well, then the AIO will do so. But there is a risk of having all those units right on the border, so the decision will be made on a risk/reward trade-off.

[Skanvak]

There are 80 optional rules already. And I am having trouble coding all of those for the initial release. More options are unlikely (to say the least).

I understand your point of view. But when reading the developpement here (I played an older version it seems), I really wish to have more freedom on declaration of war for Germany. I don't see which is the rational that would prevent the 3rd Reich to attack the Soviet (but everything has been said I think, I just would like to add that according to Skorzeny, the German underestimated the strength of the red army which mean that they did not count all the red army counter to check if they can Dow or not ).

In the tool box at least a free declaration of war should be avialable (I think that it should be easier to code a no restriction at all option than to code an alternative restriction, I might be wrong).

Anyway thaks for the answer.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


I am going to assume the German/Soviet partition line in Poland would be the border of Eastern Poland and Germany (but a question on the actual partition line would be a good idea).


If the German/Soviet partition line in Poland is the border of Eastern Poland and Germany:

Kaunas the capitol of Lithuania and most of the rest of Lithuania would be under the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule when the USSR occupies Eastern Poland.

Riga the capitol of Latvia on the other hand would be beyond the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule. Latvia can be quickly invaded and conquered at the end of the turn.


Impulse 1: Italy rails an infantry corps to a port on the Baltic Sea to a waiting German AMPH.

The Italian infantry corps has to be reorganized at the end of this impulse.

Impulse 2: Italy has DoWs LATVIA. The USSR has occupies Eastern Poland.

The German navy sails to land the Italian land unit to capture Riga.

Now Italy can DoW the USSR.

Even if the USSR occupies the other Baltic States the Italians are behind the German/USSR common border and the partition line.

There are several problems with that.
First, Russia can claim the Baltic States after she claims East Poland but is allowed to do that even in the same impulse (per the FAQ Q19.5-2). A Russian who is stuffing will likely do that on Impulse 2 of SO39. Both E. Poland and the Baltic States do not require a DoW, but no other DoWs are allowed until Impulse 3, so Italy could be pre-empted from making a DoW at all.

Second, the Italian corps that rails would be flipped and would need to be re-organized somehow before going out to sea in the Baltic.

Third, a direct invasion of Riga would be an "iffey" attack. The best Italian corps at this time is a '5' and would be halved. Riga would be worth 1 for the notional plus one for the city, minus one for being surprised.

At any rate the Partition Line is only in Poland and unless clarified differently, the German border with Lithuania is separate. So the Itlalians can set up in East Prussia and march into Lithuania anytime as long as they are not at war with the USSR and the Baltic States are unclaimed.

[morgil]

And, Italy is neutral, and don't cooperate with Germany, so their units can't stack. Also Italy is subject to Foreign troop commitment rule, so they would have to send in a HQ as well. But since Balbo is restricted to be set up in Europe, he could probably set up in East Prussia, and take care of Lithuania all by his lonesome.

But this can ofcourse only be done in Impulse 3 of the turn and USSR can bag the Baltics in Impulse 2.

And Germany and USSR does not have a common border until the fall of Poland, as western Poland is Polish until its conquered. Also make a note that the common border zone, does not go into neighbouring countries unless these are aligned or conquered.

[lavisj]

ORIGINAL: morgil

And, Italy is neutral, and don't cooperate with Germany, so their units can't stack. Also Italy is subject to Foreign troop commitment rule, so they would have to send in a HQ as well. But since Balbo is restricted to be set up in Europe, he could probably set up in East Prussia, and take care of Lithuania all by his lonesome.

But this can ofcourse only be done in Impulse 3 of the turn and USSR can bag the Baltics in Impulse 2.

And Germany and USSR does not have a common border until the fall of Poland, as western Poland is Polish until its conquered. Also make a note that the common border zone, does not go into neighbouring countries unless these are aligned or conquered.

As long as IT is neutral its units can only enter italian hexes or hexes of minors it is at war with. So, in order for IT to be able to send units into Germany, it needs to be active. Before that, it is impossible.

[Extraneous]

[font=times-roman][/font]

ORIGINAL:  paulderynck
 
 

ORIGINAL:  Extraneous
 
I am going to assume the German/Soviet partition line in Poland would be the border of Eastern Poland and Germany (but a question on the actual partition line would be a good idea).
 
 
If the German/Soviet partition line in Poland is the border of Eastern Poland and Germany:
 
Kaunas the capitol of Lithuania and most of the rest of Lithuania would be under the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule when the USSR occupies Eastern Poland.
 
Riga the capitol of Latvia on the other hand would be beyond the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule. Latvia can be quickly invaded and conquered at the end of the turn.
 
 
Action Stage 1 ~ Impulse 1: Italy rails an infantry corps to a port on the Baltic Sea to a waiting German AMPH. Impulse 2: The USSR occupies Eastern Poland.
 
The Italian infantry corps has to be reorganized at the end of this impulse.
 
Action Stage 2 ~ Impulse 1: Italy has DoWs LATVIA. 
 
The German navy sails to land the Italian land unit to capture Riga.
 
Now Italy can DoW the USSR.
 
Even if the USSR occupies the other Baltic States the Italians are behind the German/USSR common border and the partition line.

 
There are several problems with that.
(1) First, Russia can claim the Baltic States after she claims East Poland but is allowed to do that even in the same impulse (per the FAQ Q19.5-2). A Russian who is stuffing will likely do that on Impulse 2 of SO39. Both E. (2) Poland and the Baltic States do not require a DoW, but no other DoWs are allowed until Impulse 3, so Italy could be pre-empted from making a DoW at all.
 
(3) Second, the Italian corps that rails would be flipped and would need to be re-organized somehow before going out to sea in the Baltic.
 
(4) Third, a direct invasion of Riga would be an "iffy" attack. The best Italian corps at this time is a '5' and would be halved. Riga would be worth 1 for the notional plus one for the city, minus one for being surprised.
 
(5) At any rate the Partition Line is only in Poland and unless clarified differently, the German border with Lithuania is separate. So the Italians can set up in East Prussia and march into Lithuania anytime as long as they are not at war with the USSR and the Baltic States are unclaimed.

 
 
I see I have made myself unclear I think of Impulses as pairs as in rule 8.Weather. I have corrected this in this post. There is no such thing as an Impulse 3.
 
(1) If the Axis side has the initiative on Action Stage 2 ~ Impulse 1 Italy can DoW before the USSR can claim Eastern Poland and/or the Baltic States.
 
 
(2) I have no problems with FAQ Q19.5-2.
 
If the USSR claims Eastern Poland and the Baltic States in the same Action Stage DoWing Lithuania becomes a moot point. The 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule will move any Italians back where they cannot enter Lithuania by a land move.
 
If the USSR only claims Eastern Poland and the Italians are in East Prussia the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule will move any Italians back where they cannot enter Lithuania by a land move.
 
Or if Axis units are in Eastern Poland and behind the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border “Move any Axis units there to the nearest Axis controlled hex they can stack in”. The USSR has conquered Eastern Poland and controls all the hexes there.
 
 
(3) As noted in my post: The Italian infantry corps has to be reorganized at the end of this impulse. There are several ways of doing this.
 
 
(4) I didn’t say this was a good plan but it is better than Italy DoWing Lithuania for no good reason.
 
Chances for success (2.5 to 1 rounded up 3 to 1):
 
Not using the “2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE” ~ 30%
 
Using the “2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE” ~ None
 
 
(5) As noted in my post: Kaunas the capitol of Lithuania and most of the rest of Lithuania would be under the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule just by the USSR claiming Eastern Poland.
 
 
 
13.3.3 US ENTRY ACTIONS
 
13. Germany or Italy or both declare war on USSR (Ge/It) 80% chance of a chit
 
21. Allies support attacked minor (Ge/It) 70% chance of a chit
 
26. USSR controls East Poland (Ge/It) 70% chance to remove a chit
 
27. USSR controls Nazi-Soviet Pact areas (Ge/It) 40% chance to remove a chit

[micheljq]

(1) If the Axis side has the initiative on Action Stage 2 ~ Impulse 1 Italy can DoW before the USSR can claim Eastern Poland and/or the Baltic States.

No on impulse 1 Germany makes a mandatory DOW on Poland and no other DOW are permitted on first impulse of SO39 from any Axis power.

[composer99]

The partition line in Poland is the one shown on the map.

The relevant rule (19.5.1) on the partition line is:

Axis units may not cross the partition line after the USSR exercises its rights unless Germany and the USSR are at war.

As this concept is not expanded in the FAQ/rules clarifications I would expect that the prohibition to crossing the partition line applies only to the Polish partition line and not to any other part of the USSR border with other political entities.

Further, the prohibition regarding units in the Ge/USSR common border area applies only to units at war with either power.

Relevant quote:

After you enter into a neutrality pact with a major power, units controlled by other major powers on your side cannot enter hexes that are part of your common border with that major power if they are at war with that other major power. If they are in the common border already, move them immediately to the nearest friendly hex not in the common border in which they can legally stack.

(Emphasis mine.)

So:
- Italian units may freely base in East Prussia to attack Lithuania so long as Italy is not at war with the USSR.
- Italian units based in Lithuania or Hungary may enter the USSR or attack Soviet units so long as they do not attempt to cross the Polish partition line (that is, moving from a hex in Poland to E. Poland) if Italy is at war with USSR separately from Germany.

I hope this clears things up? Clear as mud, perhaps? [;)]

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous



[font=times-roman][/font]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

There are several problems with that.
(1) First, Russia can claim the Baltic States after she claims East Poland but is allowed to do that even in the same impulse (per the FAQ Q19.5-2). A Russian who is stuffing will likely do that on Impulse 2 of SO39. Both E. (2) Poland and the Baltic States do not require a DoW, but no other DoWs are allowed until Impulse 3, so Italy could be pre-empted from making a DoW at all.

(3) Second, the Italian corps that rails would be flipped and would need to be re-organized somehow before going out to sea in the Baltic.

(4) Third, a direct invasion of Riga would be an "iffy" attack. The best Italian corps at this time is a '5' and would be halved. Riga would be worth 1 for the notional plus one for the city, minus one for being surprised.

(5) At any rate the Partition Line is only in Poland and unless clarified differently, the German border with Lithuania is separate. So the Italians can set up in East Prussia and march into Lithuania anytime as long as they are not at war with the USSR and the Baltic States are unclaimed.

I see I have made myself unclear I think of Impulses as pairs as in rule 8.Weather. I have corrected this in this post. There is no such thing as an Impulse 3.

(1) If the Axis side has the initiative on Action Stage 2 ~ Impulse 1 Italy can DoW before the USSR can claim Eastern Poland and/or the Baltic States.

Italy cannot DoW before Impulse 3 (the 2nd Axis impulse).

(2) I have no problems with FAQ Q19.5-2.

If the USSR claims Eastern Poland and the Baltic States in the same Action Stage DoWing Lithuania becomes a moot point. The 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule will move any Italians back where they cannot enter Lithuania by a land move.

No. Italy is only subject to that if they DoW USSR.

If the USSR only claims Eastern Poland and the Italians are in East Prussia the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule will move any Italians back where they cannot enter Lithuania by a land move.

No. Italy is only subject to that if they DoW USSR.

Or if Axis units are in Eastern Poland and behind the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border “Move any Axis units there to the nearest Axis controlled hex they can stack in”. The USSR has conquered Eastern Poland and controls all the hexes there.

No. Italy is only subject to that if they DoW USSR. Furthermore, that citation only applies to Axis units on the wrong side of the common border in Poland when it gets established.

(3) As noted in my post: The Italian infantry corps has to be reorganized at the end of this impulse. There are several ways of doing this.

Right – I missed that. Don't forget though, that Italy can’t even rail there until it is active.

(4) I didn’t say this was a good plan but it is better than Italy DoWing Lithuania for no good reason.

Chances for success (2.5 to 1 rounded up 3 to 1):

Not using the “2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE” ~ 30%

Using the “2 DIE 10 LAND COMBAT RESULTS TABLE” ~ None

As I and several others have posted, Lithuania is a better choice with a walk-in 100% chance, providing the Baltic States are unclaimed.

(5) As noted in my post: Kaunas the capitol of Lithuania and most of the rest of Lithuania would be under the 3 hex/3 hexdot common border rule just by the USSR claiming Eastern Poland.

No. Italy is only subject to that if they DoW USSR.

[lavisj]

And furthermore on the common border. The 3 hex/3 hex dot restriction only applies to German controlled hexes. It would not apply to am italian controlled Lithuania.
So there is nothing really stopping IT from entering Lithuania, baring the USSR declaring war on Italy before IT enters Lithuania.

Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries). Hexes on the American, Asian or Pacific maps, and off-map hexes, still count as only 1 hex for this purpose.

[morgil]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


(3) As noted in my post: The Italian infantry corps has to be reorganized at the end of this impulse. There are several ways of doing this.

Right – I missed that. Don't forget though, that Italy can’t even rail there until it is active.

I believe that as long as a neutral Italy conforms with FTC (Foreign Troop Commitment), they are free to move around in German possessions as they see fit, provided they don't stack with German units.
And also, can not Balbo set up in German possessions ?

Maybe I have missed a rule or two somewhere ?

[composer99]

Morgil, I'm afraid you did miss a rule: [;)]

The rule for neutral major powers (somewhere in section 9 of RAW):

Units controlled by a neutral major power can only enter hexes controlled by that major power, by a minor country aligned with it, or by a minor country it is at war with. They can also go to sea.

A netural Italy can't move units into any German hexes, period. Once it is active, it cooperates so of course no FTC or other limits apply.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: morgil

I believe that as long as a neutral Italy conforms with FTC (Foreign Troop Commitment), they are free to move around in German possessions as they see fit, provided they don't stack with German units.
And also, can not Balbo set up in German possessions ?

Maybe I have missed a rule or two somewhere ?

You might have missed this rule.

Cut from RaW-7-aug-04:
9.1 Neutral major powers
....
Units controlled by a neutral major power can only enter hexes controlled by that major power, by a minor country aligned with it, or by a minor country it is at war with. They can also go to sea.

Edit: Late and reduntant responce by me as usual.

[darune]

In reply to the OP:

Thanks for a thorough analysis on the 'stuff' strat.

Having not seen it in play where it mattered, i have some comments nevertheless.

I would be a bit worried to base it on USSR play since the analysis of the german build plan takes some liberal assumptions i think, namely not boosting the economy and the possible (important in this respect) additions of aligned minors (probably hun,rum,bul). The third assumption about the lowland+france ressources can be obtained faster is ok i think.

Also it is, by my experience, not unlikely that germany can suffer ZERO or very few looses (in regard to garrison) up till 41 (the other scenario is of course also possible however).

Last it is a viable option to mass almost everything to the pact area up till breaking the pact if needed. Apart from italy there are not many areas on the mainland where an allied invasion, while annoying, cannot be "blitzed back into the sea" later or where it matters to a lesser degree (thinking yogoslavia here).

The german player can watch his chits well, and eyeball how much garrison he can afford elsewhere up to the last minute of 41 barbarossa, while the USSR can only estimate what the german player has.

I don't have to go into detail of how badly the USSR can be beaten up if the 'stuff' fails.