Price?

[Sarkus]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Guys, I understand the instinctive reaction to the price and I know it's not going to be within some gaming budgets. Nevertheless, this is what the price needs to be for this kind of wargame to be made and it's worth asking what games you are comparing it to when deciding that the price is too high. If we compare cars to wargames, this is effectively a Ferrari. It does not cut corners, it is meticulously hand-crafted and no expense was spared in terms of development time and effort to bring it to perfection. This is not a mass-market "reasonably priced car".

Erik, I think you need to be careful here. If this is the "Ferrari," then what are you saying about the more reasonably priced games you guys offer?

Let's be honest - this game is priced where it is based on how much it cost to develop and how many copies you think it will sell. What I come away with is that you don't think it will sell all that many or that what the developer wants out of it is so high that only a high retail price has a chance of getting that.

[Nihil]

Another buyer lost, I have CotA as I have several games from Matrix. I was eagerly waiting this game to come out, but I am not going to pay 65 € (75 € with taxes added) for a game, not even for this one.

It is not a question about whether I have the money or not, which I obviously have, but i dont want to enter into this pricing policy. Is this a message? of course it is, I will repeat it just in case "I am not going to pay 75 € for a game"

Some people here is wishing you good luck though they have stated they are not going to buy your game, well I wish you the worst of lucks, perhaps that way you will reconsider and make you open your eyes.

You may price a game whatever you think it deserves but in the end it is the market who fixes the prices.

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: bink
By not hedging currency exposure, Panther is most directly responsible for the higher US prices.

The point is that some are claiming that Matrix has made a decision to put the prices up. But it is more likely due to the FX rate.

Before digital download, if I ordered a game from the USA, the freight includes the weight of the compulsory manual. The FX rate was somewhat different then!. I complained and you all ignored me. Now you are on the other side of the ledger.


-

[Terminus]

Well, I could add to this by reminding everybody that one of the most popular games Matrix has ever published (at least in terms of forum traffic) is WitP, and that cost $80 as well. Pay the money or not, but don't whine about it.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, I could add to this by reminding everybody that one of the most popular games Matrix has ever published (at least in terms of forum traffic) is WitP, and that cost $80 as well. Pay the money or not, but don't whine about it.

I'd like to think that this game may be worth $80 just like WitP. But my experience with the other titles in the series says it's not. Of course this judgement is made without experiencing the improvments in the game engine.

[planetbrain]

There is no way that I won't buy this game asap.
Not yet able to afford it but I look forward to the time when I can.
I have every confidence that BFTB will meet my expectations of quality and for that I don't mind (too much) paying the asking price. What else are you to do when you must have something?

[TinyPirate]

Why should Australian developers have to pay for Wall Street excesses ??????

You're arguing that volume doesn't change and the price has to be set to cover cost and profit (revenue = volume x cost, after all).

I think this thread demonstrates volume isn't going to be great at this price point. If it was half the price, would volume stay the same? No, it would almost certainly go up. Would it double? I would argue it would more than double (especially with a bit of a marketing push), but hey, I'm crazy like that.

[pekbro]

Tough situation on both sides...

Maybe remove the editor and half the scenarios, sell the game for 60 and the rest as a digital addon for 20.
Anyone can make payments, even me, and my monthly gaming budget would make most of you want to slap me very hard
across the face. 4 digits easy, fortunately, my tastes are specific and the industry cannot supply me with that much desirable content.

I for one, want the developers to succeed and will undoubtedly purchase it at some point in support of them. Like it or not this
is a niche market and I imagine its a tough go for them. Condemming them for doing what they must is not so nice I think.

Wait for a demo and/or a sale, many of you have waited this long allready.

If its really that much of a problem, organize and petition them for a compromise like the one above. Their fanbase is their
lifesblood and Im sure they know it, to ignore that would be foolish. However, expecting them to go to such lengths over mere
belly-aching is equally foolish.

Anyway, my lame 2 cents...

I simply have not purchased the game as I am still trying to digest COTA (which I suck at apparently) could take a while...
kindof like this post...

[Arjuna]

Re Price

I appreciate your feedback on the price. No one ever likes paying more for a product. I also appreciate that for many cash is tight at the moment. Trust me I am in the same boat. Developing professional grade software for a niche entertainment market is not a path to wealth that I would recommend.
We contemplated this issue at length. On the one hand we would love to sell mega copies of BFTB. But we have to face the reality that this is a niche market and we will never be able to sell the volumes like AAA general market titles. Products like your First Person Shooters take dozens of man years to make, cost millions and need to sell hundreds of thousands of copies to succeed. The wargame market is unlikely to hit the tens of thousands of sales. So we have very small volumes and virtually no prospects of increasing those volumes, especially for a serious realistic simulation such as BFTB. Anyone who thinks that we are somehow going to be able to expand our sales volume significantly is deluding themselves.

We have committed about 50 man years of development on our series. That is a huge investment and given the cost of further development cannot be sustained with the current income stream. Since we cannot increase the volume of sales, significantly, we have two choices. We can increase the price or we can stop further development.

We are well aware of the potential impact of raising the price on sales volume. The laws of price elasticity affect all markets. However, niche markets in general are less affected primarily because there is limited offerings and hence limited competition and also because the customers in general appreciate that the unit price has to be higher than for a general market product because the cost of development has to be absorbed over a much smaller volume of sales.

Is this a good situation for our customers? No, it is not. Is it a good situation for us? Definitely not. But the choices for us are clear and stark. Sell at the old price and abandon further development or increase price and hope that we can stay in the commercial wargames business. Even at the higher price we may still be forced to abandon development because not enough people buy it. Yes it’s a big risk, but it’s the only option that may keep us designing for the commercial wargames market. I cannot put it any more bluntly.

Each one of you will have to make your own decision as to whether you think the price is worth it. I would like to think that when you consider the benefits you will answer yes. Please consider that there are 27 scenarios. Playing through each one once would provide over a hundred hours of entertainment. If you swap sides, you get another hundred hours. But with the way we have designed the scenarios and the use of generic objectives, you can play the same scenario many times and get a different experience. That is one of the beauties of the engine. I would estimate that on average most players will get over 400 hours of entertainment out of BFTB. Many will get thousands of hours.

By providing a full construction set, with the inclusion of all the editors needed to create any battle, we envisage considerable content being developed by the community. This should translate into a stream of third party scenarios that will further extend the life of this product and provide even more entertainment value.

Even at 400 hours the cost of entertainment for BFTB is just 20 cents per hour. Think about that.
Also let’s put it in relative terms to other games that you have purchased. Estimate the number of hours you have played them, then divide this into their purchase price and I bet there will be very few that are as cheap per hour as BFTB.

But also consider the quality of the experience you will get with BFTB. I am not aware of any other product ( commercially or for that matter within the military simulation market ) that better simulates the role of an operational commander. Certainly when it comes to artificial intelligence, BFTB is without peer. We have added so many features to the engine since COTA, features designed to enrich your experience and make it easier for you to assess, plan and order your forces. Go to the BFTB product page and read the long list of new features and enhancements and check out the New Stuff thread on the BFTB forum.

So it all boils down to value and priorities. Only you can make that call for yourself. I do believe that BFTB is very good value for money. We will be putting out a demo in about a month or so. So you can always wait and see. In the meantime check out the Game Concepts movie. The first of the tutorial movies will soon be available for public release. We will progressively release more of these over the coming weeks.

If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask here on the forum.

[loyalcitizen]

Thanks Dave. Did the download and already played through the demo scenario. Good stuff already.
Glad this came out in time for my Memorial Day weekend.
I had been thinking on going to a wargaming convention in LA this weekend, but now with BftB, I will save money!
 
2 Nights hotel room: $220
3 Days Parking: $30
Convention Registration: $50
Gas: $25
---------
Total: $325
 
Thanks to you I saved $245 !

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Sarkus

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Guys, I understand the instinctive reaction to the price and I know it's not going to be within some gaming budgets. Nevertheless, this is what the price needs to be for this kind of wargame to be made and it's worth asking what games you are comparing it to when deciding that the price is too high. If we compare cars to wargames, this is effectively a Ferrari. It does not cut corners, it is meticulously hand-crafted and no expense was spared in terms of development time and effort to bring it to perfection. This is not a mass-market "reasonably priced car".

Erik, I think you need to be careful here. If this is the "Ferrari," then what are you saying about the more reasonably priced games you guys offer?

Let's be honest - this game is priced where it is based on how much it cost to develop and how many copies you think it will sell. What I come away with is that you don't think it will sell all that many or that what the developer wants out of it is so high that only a high retail price has a chance of getting that.

Erik, I think you need to be careful here. If this is the "Ferrari," then what are you saying about the more reasonably priced games you guys offer?

Like CC re-releases with no significant new features and broken AI, for example?

[PirateJock]

Dave

Great that you've clarified the thinking behind the pricing - and I'm feeling smug as that was my thought process before I bought it. I can see why people are unhappy with the relatively high price ... it's the 'shock' and the disappointment that can't justify going for it on Day 1. Whether or not it was the correct decision only time will tell. I hope it was so we see the continued development and support of the series; for me it's the one I enjoy best.

Shiver me timbers

[Seydlitz69]

I also bought as I think that small companys like PG need support, although I must say I fell more like an alcohol addict who couldnt go past the Schnapps bottle in a Supermarket then a happy customer.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
I would estimate that on average most players will get over 400 hours of entertainment out of BFTB. Many will get thousands of hours.

Provided that the people appreciates the game. I have only clocked a few hours on HTTR (less than 5). I fear it might be the same for this game. Maybe the demo will help to prove me wrong.

By providing a full construction set, with the inclusion of all the editors needed to create any battle, we envisage considerable content being developed by the community. This should translate into a stream of third party scenarios that will further extend the life of this product and provide even more entertainment value.

I've asked this before. What time frame and theater? Can we create maps or are we stuck with what's available?

But also consider the quality of the experience you will get with BFTB. I am not aware of any other product ( commercially or for that matter within the military simulation market ) that better simulates the role of an operational commander. Certainly when it comes to artificial intelligence, BFTB is without peer. We have added so many features to the engine since COTA, features designed to enrich your experience and make it easier for you to assess, plan and order your forces. Go to the BFTB product page and read the long list of new features and enhancements and check out the New Stuff thread on the BFTB forum.

If you are so confident about your product, why not develop software for the military as well. This will give you some money to go on operating as a company without being so dependent on commercial sales. That way, you can lower the price for the masses.

Anyway appreciate all the effort you've put into the game. Good luck and hope we see more games in the future.

[vj531]

Some might say its "reassuringly expensive"

PS. We sold many many copies of War In Russia on Apple II and Atari 800 way back in the dark ages at my old store in the UK Strategic Plus for £79.99. big game, big price. Save up! and have fun, will last for years! Cheep as chips in real terms.

[nicdain]

Thank you Dave for the clarifications.
Actually, having played CoTA, I have no doubt about the overall quality of the series. I also have to admit that this kind of wargame, given its value, deserves a higher price in respect to other trash games or to those wargames which use the same engine over years without significant improvements.

I must say I was somehow initially shocked by the price, but on second though, and following your considerations, I think it is not totally out of place. I mean, quality has its price.

For these reasons, I think I will purchase the game, sooner or later, also because this way I hope to support further development of games with this engine.
Best regards

[EagleMountainDK]

ORIGINAL: jomni

ORIGINAL: loyalcitizen

Can't the European players pay with Paypal, give the address of their "Summer Home" in the states [;)], and avoid the VAT?

Buy it from the US store page and use your Paypal account.

Paypal

Just tried that, but I still have to pay 6% VAT. Going from DKK 556,00 til DKK 501,00.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: Cougar_DK

Just tried that, but I still have to pay 6% VAT. Going from DKK 556,00 til DKK 501,00.

Sorry about that. I'm from Singapore and we don't get VAT for these transactions.

[Tomus]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: bink
By not hedging currency exposure, Panther is most directly responsible for the higher US prices.

The point is that some are claiming that Matrix has made a decision to put the prices up. But it is more likely due to the FX rate.

Before digital download, if I ordered a game from the USA, the freight includes the weight of the compulsory manual. The FX rate was somewhat different then!. I complained and you all ignored me. Now you are on the other side of the ledger.
-

TBH that sounds rather like commerical suicide. I don't think Australia provides that big a customer base for highly complex wargames. We may be on the other side of the ledger but I imagine we represent a much bigger share of the market and therefore pricing us out the purchase is madness.

Also looking at the prices in Australia it seems to me that current release PC games such as Just Cause 2 or Modern Warfare 2 are selling for $70-$80 at $102 BftB is still a lot more expensive.

That said I will buy the game definitely. I got hours of enjoyment from the other two games in the series and I have no doubt I will with this.

[EagleMountainDK]

ORIGINAL: jomni

ORIGINAL: Cougar_DK

Just tried that, but I still have to pay 6% VAT. Going from DKK 556,00 til DKK 501,00.

Sorry about that. I'm from Singapore and we don't get VAT for these transactions.

No worries, just tried selecting another store location and using PayPal. Then the VAT went away and I can pay $80 for the game. Thats about DKK 483,57. Some way better than the original DKK 556,00 [:)]