Japanese A/C R&D

[John 3rd]

Adding an aircraft purchase system seems to have really helped in all of my Mods. Provides the Allied player with a chance to pull 'emergency' aircraft at Political Point cost. This has seemingly worked pretty well.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Adding an aircraft purchase system seems to have really helped in all of my Mods. Provides the Allied player with a chance to pull 'emergency' aircraft at Political Point cost. This has seemingly worked pretty well.

+1. Use in my AI mod as well. Very effective to keep the game going. I assess VP's instead of PP's for the AI.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Meh, on the one hand I like the mechanics which allow the Japanese player to maximize their industry, and make the game more enjoyable (to both sides really). On the other hand, as someone who enjoys the game partially because of its simulation aspects, and as someone who has played the Allies almost exclusively, something seems wrong about Japan being able to out produce the "Arsenal of Democracy" in terms of both research and aircraft. This is especially egregious when the Japanese player is continuing to do so well after the point that the European theatre was prioritized.

A few mods have instituted the aircraft purchase system (paying for aircraft with PP points) to try counter this "counter reality."

In any case, if I were making this game again, today, I would build in greater Allied economic control to make the balance of economic power more realistic, while giving players the option of using said feature or not.

Keep in mind that the production/replacement values for the Allied airframes in no way represent the actual production of the "Arsenal of Democracy" - merely what was historically sent to the PTO. The vast bulk went to Europe.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Meh, on the one hand I like the mechanics which allow the Japanese player to maximize their industry, and make the game more enjoyable (to both sides really). On the other hand, as someone who enjoys the game partially because of its simulation aspects, and as someone who has played the Allies almost exclusively, something seems wrong about Japan being able to out produce the "Arsenal of Democracy" in terms of both research and aircraft. This is especially egregious when the Japanese player is continuing to do so well after the point that the European theatre was prioritized.

A few mods have instituted the aircraft purchase system (paying for aircraft with PP points) to try counter this "counter reality."

In any case, if I were making this game again, today, I would build in greater Allied economic control to make the balance of economic power more realistic, while giving players the option of using said feature or not.

Keep in mind that the production/replacement values for the Allied airframes in no way represent the actual production of the "Arsenal of Democracy" - merely what was historically sent to the PTO. The vast bulk went to Europe.

Correct, which is why the aircraft purchase system goes a long way towards providing some equity.

[rustysi]

"So you can then skip the TojoIIb and the expense of researching it"

..is not... you need to either research the IIb or wait until it comes per historical date (otherwise you can not upgrade your facs "for free" to the IIc... Did you mean "the expense of PRODUCING it"? - you need to research it still if you want to upgrade to IIc (I am talking of switching your PRODUCTION facs to IIc if no IIb you CAN NOT upgrade the prod facs to the IIc). You can ofc switch a RES FAC from the Ia (as soon repaired) toIIb then directly to IIc but NOT prod facs...!

Been on 'holiday hiatus' so just getting to this now. Well I don't use the method, but as I explained it was how I think it operates. I don't see why I couldn't go from one production model to any other in the string without a reduction in the production rate. I know I do it from the A6M2 to the A6M3a. I skip the A6M3 production as I don't build the model, although the research has been done because that's my method. Don't skip models in the research string. Others do and it seems to work. If you want more info in that regard one of them would have to chime in as I've said I don't use the 'skip' method.

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Meh, on the one hand I like the mechanics which allow the Japanese player to maximize their industry, and make the game more enjoyable (to both sides really). On the other hand, as someone who enjoys the game partially because of its simulation aspects, and as someone who has played the Allies almost exclusively, something seems wrong about Japan being able to out produce the "Arsenal of Democracy" in terms of both research and aircraft. This is especially egregious when the Japanese player is continuing to do so well after the point that the European theatre was prioritized.

A few mods have instituted the aircraft purchase system (paying for aircraft with PP points) to try counter this "counter reality."

In any case, if I were making this game again, today, I would build in greater Allied economic control to make the balance of economic power more realistic, while giving players the option of using said feature or not.

Keep in mind that the production/replacement values for the Allied airframes in no way represent the actual production of the "Arsenal of Democracy" - merely what was historically sent to the PTO. The vast bulk went to Europe.

Correct, which is why the aircraft purchase system goes a long way towards providing some equity.

Adding the purchase system on the Allied side is one way, applying a brake on the Japanese side is another (both methods may complement each other). It is possible to tweak the supply costs for repairing damaged factories. If applied to Japanese engines, you can make it very costly supply-wise to expand engine production. If every engine factory point costs say 3000 or 5000 supplies to repair instead of 1000 as per stock, Japanese players would have to think twice about trying to out-produce the Allies. There might not be enough supplies left to fly all the planes produced by over-expanded factories.

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Keep in mind that the production/replacement values for the Allied airframes in no way represent the actual production of the "Arsenal of Democracy" - merely what was historically sent to the PTO. The vast bulk went to Europe.

True, but what the game fails to model is some of the broad strategic decisions about force allocation and production that would have been made by the Allies had historical Japan managed some of the things a player driven Japan can accomplish. For example, if the Allies were losing the air war in the pacific and a disproportionate amount of pilots and aircraft in the theatre, production targets and force allocations would have changed. You can know with certainty that the Pacific would eventually be awash in aircraft and material; however, the game as it exists (stock) not only makes it possible for the Japanese out produce the United States and the Western Allies, importantly even after May 1945, but it also locks the Allied player into a production scheme that is "historical" and completely unresponsive to what the Japanese player does, or the course of the war in the Pacific.

This is the "frustrating" part for someone who appreciates the simulation aspects of the game, or just likes to play the Allied side. [:D]

[rustysi]

If every engine factory point costs say 3000 or 5000 supplies to repair instead of 1000 as per stock

This would ruin the game for Japan, she simply could not afford it.

I wonder if any here actually know the numbers produced by the Japanese. While they certainly don't approach those produced by the U.S. (then again who could) they certainly weren't anemic. Japan produced ~70k aircraft during the war years. The U.S. roughly 4 times that many. Here's the breakdown for Japan...

1941: 5088- 1080F, 1461B
1942: 8861- 2935F, 2433B
1943: 16693- 7147F, 4189B
1944: 28180- 13811F, 5100B
1945: 11066- 5474F, 1934B

These are the historical record. How I'm going to produce that many A/C in a game, I wonder. Those numbers would put a huge burden on the Japanese economy and I'm not sure they are attainable in the game.

Now I have no idea what the Allied numbers really look like, but if they are historical I can't possibly see how Japan could 'out produce' even the U.S. alone.

TBH my current game is the first time I've put an emphasis on my A/C 'production'. I've obviously done some in my previous efforts, but this is the first where I'm looking at the possibilities and the extent to where it could possibly be extended. I can assure you, especially those who have never played Japan it is a real burden and drain on Japanese resources.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget


Adding the purchase system on the Allied side is one way, applying a brake on the Japanese side is another (both methods may complement each other). It is possible to tweak the supply costs for repairing damaged factories. If applied to Japanese engines, you can make it very costly supply-wise to expand engine production. If every engine factory point costs say 3000 or 5000 supplies to repair instead of 1000 as per stock, Japanese players would have to think twice about trying to out-produce the Allies. There might not be enough supplies left to fly all the planes produced by over-expanded factories.

In my mod, I've bumped the Ha-4x engines up to 1500 and the Jet/Rocket engines to 2000 (50% and 100% increase) and dropped the Ha-3x engines to 750 (25% drop). I can only say it has increased the difficulty of obtaining late model aircraft considerably. I may have gone too far ... and it makes the IJ player seriously consider building early models into the late war as they historically did.

[Barb]

Or you guys could just play Scenario 1 - and you would be scrapping the lower end of the barrel for HI to feed your Engine/Plane/Armament/Vehicle/Shipyard Factories rapidly...
I wonder If I have not already passed the positive HI monthly total in May 1943! Hope I will not crash the economy before 1945

[LargeSlowTarget]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
In my mod, I've bumped the Ha-4x engines up to 1500 and the Jet/Rocket engines to 2000 (50% and 100% increase) and dropped the Ha-3x engines to 750 (25% drop). I can only say it has increased the difficulty of obtaining late model aircraft considerably. I may have gone too far ... and it makes the IJ player seriously consider building early models into the late war as they historically did.

Interesting, never thought about dropping the costs for the Ha-3x family. I have upped the cost to 3000 for Ha-3x and 4000 for Ha-4x engines and 5000 for jets / rockets - but that is because I have an experimental approach to simplify production management. I have replaced the individual engine models by 5 generic engines: Ha-3x = "early radial", Ha-4x = "late radial", Ha-60 = "inline", plus "jet" and "rocket"). This eases considerably the production planning and management chores. On the downside it increases the flexibility of engine-to-airframe allocation and thus making mass-production even easier - and to counteract this I have upped the supply costs considerably. I hope that production management will be easier but out.producing the Allies impossible - still testing, time will tell. I plan to do a "classic engine production" variant some day, I hope you won't object that I steal your approach for this.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
... I hope you won't object that I steal your approach for this.

NP, publically disclosed.

I'm looking at going the other way ... breaking down the engine families into sub-families to increase the cost and restrict the ease with which you have so many models in production. IJ was not able to do that ... protoypes, sure. But actual production of all those prototypes, no capability. So, all those late war designs after Frank ... pick one or two max that you can have ... that's it. The others never leave prototype. They simply did not have the tooling design/production capacity to put more than one or two more models into production.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Pax, that idea has merit but it would result in even more "Engine Management in the Pacific" - something I want to avoid for my mod. For my approach a generic "prototype" engine with outrageously high supply costs will have to suffice to limit the late war wonder weapons.
For completeness, I actually have two more engine types with very high repair costs in order to discourage their use - "obsolete" engines (like Kotobuki and Ha-5) for planes no longer in production at the start of the war and "foreign" engines for imported planes (my mod includes the Thai Air Force from the "War Option 1941 mod", with kind permission from Skyland).

[Revthought]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

When I say historical, I mean in theme only. The Allied production numbers do not match reality exactly. And believe me when I say (other more experienced people can chime in here to), it is absolutely possible for a Japanese player to outproduce the United States in aircraft.

Not supplies or manpower, obviously (hell Allied supplies are infinite), but in aircraft yes. This sometimes has very strange results. Just look at most late war AARs. [:D]

All that said, there is a fine line between simulation and fun! I am not advocating for any changes to the game as it exists, just that the aircraft purchase system was a good idea and that if I were making WiTPAE2 I would have more Allied control over the economy be an option (just like historical R&D and PDUs).

Even then, I realize that to achieve fun for both sides you need to give the Japanese player some advantages, even in 1944+. If you don't no one would want to play Japan past 1943, and even if someone were willing to do so, it would be spectacularly boring and one sided.

[rustysi]

I would have more Allied control over the economy be an option

The problem I have with this is that you now need to have some way to simulate the European war. In WitP-AE Japans' whole deal is in front of you. For the Allies that's just not the case and you would need some form of ramifications WRT the ETO.

I still don't see how Japan could out produce the U.S., although in game it may be possible. Does the U.S. get historical numbers of A/C? I do not know. I know I said I had no idea of what the U.S. numbers were, but that's not what I meant. What I should have said is that I have the same breakdown for the U.S. as I've shown for Japan. I just don't have a breakdown of how many A/C went to the ETO as opposed to the PTO, not to mention Lend-Lease.

Besides as has been said here many times, a lot of what is given to Japan is to entice someone like me to play that side. I really have no desire to play a side that I know is going to get slaughtered if my opponent sticks it through to the end and is any good. When I do get to PBEM I fully expect to be the boxer up against the ropes getting pummeled at some point in the game.

Besides the other side of the coin is that some players don't wish to learn all the economic hoopla that goes with Japan and just play the Allies. I doubt these same players are all of a sudden going to want to deal with it from the side of the Allies.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: rustysi
I still don't see how Japan could out produce the U.S., although in game it may be possible.

It is never possible in game =) Look at all the ships/tanks/LCUs/4Es US produces - Japan can never compete. It can focus into fighter planes though, while US still needs to produce everything, and for all fronts, and help other Allies too. I don't see why Japan can't produce more fighters than US in the 42-44.

[rustysi]

I don't see why Japan can't produce more fighters than US in the 42-44.

Early on they probably did, at least in theater. If Japan were to do this to a great extent during the game though its a great disservice to herself. She will simply have a whole bunch of useless (as time goes on) first generation (in game terms) A/C that are of little or no use.

The trick for Japan is to build just enough early A/C to sustain the pace of ops. Just as she needs to save some good pilots for the later model A/C, she needs to have the HI to build 'em.

[rustysi]

It can focus into fighter planes though,

This is true, but that means she's giving up strike capability and she needs that as well. Especially in the expansion period.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Revthought

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

When I say historical, I mean in theme only. The Allied production numbers do not match reality exactly. And believe me when I say (other more experienced people can chime in here to), it is absolutely possible for a Japanese player to outproduce the United States in aircraft.

Not supplies or manpower, obviously (hell Allied supplies are infinite), but in aircraft yes. This sometimes has very strange results. Just look at most late war AARs. [:D]

All that said, there is a fine line between simulation and fun! I am not advocating for any changes to the game as it exists, just that the aircraft purchase system was a good idea and that if I were making WiTPAE2 I would have more Allied control over the economy be an option (just like historical R&D and PDUs).

Even then, I realize that to achieve fun for both sides you need to give the Japanese player some advantages, even in 1944+. If you don't no one would want to play Japan past 1943, and even if someone were willing to do so, it would be spectacularly boring and one sided.

Most of those AAR's the IJ economy implodes ... they have 25K aircraft, but no supply. That means no aircraft sortie, LCU's fight at 5% strength ...

I've said this many times in the past ... If I am allied player, and I see the IJ producing 1500 Tojo's/month, I know I have won. Yes, it will take until late '45, but I already know the economy will implode.

[rustysi]

And what Pax said, this is very pertinent. I must admit I'm probably going to have to soldier through with my current AI game to see if I can sustain my economy through the end game. I've never gone beyond late '42 as yet. Economy was fine at that point, but I must see for myself if it can go the distance.