Attention Matrix Staff: Aircraft Upgrades

[Banquet]

Having spent the last 2 hours trying to get my head around Japanese production for my 1st game playing them, I ended up thinking the same thing as Zoomie.. If 2by3 won't change this, why don't they just scrap aircraft production altogether and have the same system the allies use.

I'm not sure I can be bothered putting all the effort in, for such minimal output.

Infact it makes more work as we now have to hunt around to find how many squadrons are capable of upgrade to which model.

Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but at the moment it reminds me of studying at school.. lots of work, but wondering what the practical benefits will be!

[mdiehl]

If we had NO control over Japanese production I could agree.

I think that's what Matrix should have done, at least with respect to the present situation in which people are carping because they do not have yet MORE ability to optimize than the game allows.

But Matrix or 2X3 gave 100% control over Japanese production. Now we CAN produce GOOD models, in some cases even BETTER than American counterparts, and get them in substantial numbers by simply being smarter than the Japanese were in history, and better/luckier in combat.

Well, that any of the models are better than their contemporary American counterparts is a bonus that Matrix has given the Japanese, so maybe the best move is to just be greatful that iron dogs like the Shinden have had their many flaws overlooked for the sake of avoiding too much code. You'd have to have a whole extra suite of operation loss modifiers for a/c with lemon engines, landing gears that collapse on landing, control surfaces with compressibility problems as IAS approaches 400 mph, extra maintenance costs, etc.

[Reiryc]

You can benefit from it, you're just not going to win the war from it.

Non sequiter... where did I say anything about winning the war?

So, IMO, Matrix has been somewhat generous to the Japanese player in letting him have as much control as he does. Given a choice between walking into an incredible quagmire of modeling Japanese production in detail (only, I am pretty sure, to have the usual AF legions persistently clamoring to be allowed to tweak the system such that Shinden production compares favorably with P-40 production as regards numbers), and simply removing the feature entirely from the Japanese player's control, I'd say the best option is the latter.

It's pointless....

Why have R&D if you can't benefit from it? I can develop the frank ahead of schedule, but without any squadrons to equip it, then it just accumulates while squadrons that still fly the oscar get decimated. There is no point in adjusting the R&D if you can't do anything with a newly developed aircraft model being processed until you receive some airgroups that equip it.

There is no good reason that a player who is able to produce a better IJA model than what currently exists can't upgrade his field units to that model provided he is able to produce enough of them.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

If the production system allows one to build x number of aircraft that is better than a current model then that current model should be capable of being replaced.

If the problem is that the production system doesn't do a good job of reflecting the difficulties the japanese faced, then the production system should be tweaked. However, it stands to reason that if a model is available that performs better, that the player should be able to utilize that aircraft model more fully.

Why allow a tweaking of the production/R&D system if you can't really benefit from it?

You can benefit from it, you're just not going to win the war from it. I have more sympathy with Oleg's response. If the game requires that you channel Speer rather than opt for an automated management system that attempts something historical then there's a need for more automation.

But as to your point, my view is that any effort to model in detail the kinds of inefficiencies and lack of resources (in particular large numbers of top ranked engineers, machinists and industrial moguls who can really rationalize production AND also make top of the line equipment) is doomed to fail unless you sort of invert the whole point of the game. That is, make a game called "WW2 Industrial Baron" in which the ONLY thing the players do is manage the economies and let the war play out in some hypersimplified Risk type combat resolution system. Because doing this job really well requires an inordinated level of complexity.

So, IMO, Matrix has been somewhat generous to the Japanese player in letting him have as much control as he does. Given a choice between walking into an incredible quagmire of modeling Japanese production in detail (only, I am pretty sure, to have the usual AF legions persistently clamoring to be allowed to tweak the system such that Shinden production compares favorably with P-40 production as regards numbers), and simply removing the feature entirely from the Japanese player's control, I'd say the best option is the latter.

Begs the question then, if the intent of the game is as some have said, why did they give us the feature? Either the intent is not what these people imply at all (historical simulation) or Matrix/2X3 made a big error by providing a feature that runs counter to the intent.

I am still, as the Japanese player, short of everything, even WITH control over production. I can't just increase factory counts for Shindens. I have to take away something for every Shinden I choose to r&d (in order to get it eraly enough to make a difference) and eventually make it sufficient numbers. Means I am going to agree to some serious shortages somewhere, probably one of the Ki series fighters mostly used in China. I am still encumbered by all that ails Japan, I'm just sacrificing more in a particular area of my choosing. But the result is at least some better models in numbers that matter I and should be able to use them, conceptually.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

If we had NO control over Japanese production I could agree.

I think that's what Matrix should have done, at least with respect to the present situation in which people are carping because they do not have yet MORE ability to optimize than the game allows.

But Matrix or 2X3 gave 100% control over Japanese production. Now we CAN produce GOOD models, in some cases even BETTER than American counterparts, and get them in substantial numbers by simply being smarter than the Japanese were in history, and better/luckier in combat.

Well, that any of the models are better than their contemporary American counterparts is a bonus that Matrix has given the Japanese, so maybe the best move is to just be greatful that iron dogs like the Shinden have had their many flaws overlooked for the sake of avoiding too much code. You'd have to have a whole extra suite of operation loss modifiers for a/c with lemon engines, landing gears that collapse on landing, control surfaces with compressibility problems as IAS approaches 400 mph, extra maintenance costs, etc.

Again though Matrix has given us the ability to get Shindens and A7M's AND an added bonus to give them better performance than they actually had must mean their intent was never historical simulation at all. Or at least not REQUIRING historical simulation but allowing for some very "Warcraft-like" game play. Problem is, with this solution, they may have missed BOTH marks. The historical-simulation fanatics don't like it, and the fantasy Jap-fanboy fanatics don't like it either. Kind of like the extreme wings of both US political parties, none of them are happy with the centrist Presidents they get, even their own....

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

I am still, as the Japanese player, short of everything, even WITH control over production. I can't just increase factory counts for Shindens. I have to take away something for every Shinden I choose to r&d (in order to get it eraly enough to make a difference) and eventually make it sufficient numbers. Means I am going to agree to some serious shortages somewhere, probably one of the Ki series fighters mostly used in China. I am still encumbered by all that ails Japan, I'm just sacrificing more in a particular area of my choosing. But the result is at least some better models in numbers that matter I and should be able to use them, conceptually.

I think this is what many will see as their games progress. You just aren't going to be able to produce what you need. Early on you have more planes than you need, but once the Allied war machine starts comming, you will not. You will still have to produce the supplies, fuel, ships, armaments, and vehicles. Shortages will become glaring. So you can make Franks, just not the 1000's of them people are envisioning.

I haven't played this far in the game yet, so I could be wrong, but I've felt all along that Japan must "win" the game on points as early as possible. The longer the game plays the less likely they will ever have enough points. I'm shooting for a "win" in '43. I hope to never see a Shinden [:D]

[Mr.Frag]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Frag, assuming everything that had to be said in this thread, has already been said, I'll be rude and semi-hijack the thread...

I'm interested in your VERY depressive outview of the Japs chances to win the scen #15 game (mind you, I'm saying win the *game* not win the *war*).

Frankly, your depressing observations did more to cool me off for playing WITP than this whole "aircraft upgrade" discussion. (Design decisions regarding production/industry/upgrades do seem a bit strange but I can live with that.)

I guess no one played the whole campaign to the end during playtesting, but I understand you have run some PC vs. PC games (lasting for some days as I read on this forum).

What was the outcome of those games?

And finally - DO you really stand by your words that Japs have snowballs chance in hell to win the *game*? After the initial patching period ends, I plan on starting several serious PBEMs. I play to have good time, but I also play to WIN (and am not ashamed to admit it). If you tell me straight away I will have no chances of winning as Japanese (with or without aircraft upgrades or whatever) then what's the purpose of playing the friggen game?

Oleg

[:D]

I'm not talking about the game, I'm talking about the war. They are two completely separate things.

Sorry if you took my comments to mean *game* vs war. [;)]

[Mr.Frag]

It is plain stupid if you want to upgrade 2 groups of F2As to F4F-4s, if you have 72 F4F-4s, but only 10 F4F-3s, you have to wait longer. That is not historical, that is just being Anal.

Can we keep the misinformation out of the thread. It just confused people. If you have F4F-4's, your F2A's will go directly to F4F-4's. The code looks forward 2 models and backwards 1 when checking for available aircraft.

Now for the rest of the thread ...

Here's the basic flaw with most of these statements. You are developing aircraft. Each new aircraft is built on stuff learned by inventing the previous generation aircraft.

You can't simple turn around and say screw that, I demand that I can research the F/A-18 because it is better! I want to ignore all these other aircraft completely. It doesn't work, you can't jump from the Wright brothers to the space shuttle in one leap just because you want to. It is just beyond my belief that i am seeing this kind ot nonsense from grogs [8|]

It is cracking me up that I even have to defend this. Hi, I playing the Allies ... "can we skip all those useless aircraft that had to be designed and give me all P-51's and b-29's ? I know they were invented so I don't need any of the other aircraft. [8|]"

[Banquet]

I totally agree Mr.Frag.. however I think the crux of the arguement is not 'why can I not research this aircraft'

It's 'why I am allowed to build this aircraft, but then not equip it?'

[Mr.Frag]

It's 'why I am allowed to build this aircraft, but then not equip it?'

It's the same point ... I build a fighter-bomber instead of the fighter, because I cheaped out on R&D and just made the one, i want to convert all my fighters over to fighter-bombers so I don't have to do the R&D ... same end effect.

Look at it from the other end, "why are you not producing the aircraft you need for the air groups you know by looking at your aircraft reinforcement pages are coming?"

If the answer is "because this aircraft is better then that aircraft", then you really come full circle back to the problem.

Now, where did I leave my F-22's ... hmmm

[Tankerace]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

It is plain stupid if you want to upgrade 2 groups of F2As to F4F-4s, if you have 72 F4F-4s, but only 10 F4F-3s, you have to wait longer. That is not historical, that is just being Anal.

Can we keep the misinformation out of the thread. It just confused people. If you have F4F-4's, your F2A's will go directly to F4F-4's. The code looks forward 2 models and backwards 1 when checking for available aircraft.

How is it misinofmation Mr. Frag? I just told you what I observed in my turn last night. If it looks forward two models, then why are my choices either F4F-3s (which I have 10 of) or none. On the F2A unit (VF-2 off the Lexington), it only gives me one choice, not two. I have tried everything, and the only way I can get it to take F4F-4s is if I upgrade to -3s, then -4s.

[Mr.Frag]

How is it misinofmation Mr. Frag? I just told you what I observed in my turn last night. If it looks forward two models, then why are my choices either F4F-3s (which I have 10 of) or none. On the F2A unit (VF-2 off the Lexington), it only gives me one choice, not two. I have tried everything, and the only way I can get it to take F4F-4s is if I upgrade to -3s, then -4s.

Leave it on automatic upgrade for a turn. If they are not F4F-4's, then it's a bug.

[Bradley7735]

HI Tankerace,

I'm not 100% sure this works because I haven't been able to test it, but...

Take your F2a's and set them to upgrade. You should see F4F-3's as the only option. Now, leave them alone (don't click "Upgrade Now"). Run the turn. When the new turn is there, you should see F4F-4's. (assuming there are enough F4F-4's in the pool.)

The computer will upgrade 2 levels, but you can only manually upgrade one level.

bc

[Tankerace]

That's what I did. I only had 10 F4F-3s, but 72 F4F-4s. They didn't upgrade, but as soon as I got 22 F4F-3s, then it upgraded to the -3s and then the -4s.

[Mr.Frag]

That's what I did. I only had 10 F4F-3s, but 72 F4F-4s. They didn't upgrade, but as soon as I got 22 F4F-3s, then it upgraded to the -3s and then the -4s.

You got a save of it while they are 2's still? If not, I'll make one up.

[Sultanofsham]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
You can't simple turn around and say screw that, I demand that I can research the F/A-18 because it is better! I want to ignore all these other aircraft completely.

[:-] Thats not what is being asked for and is a very very disingenuous way to put it at best.

What IS being asked for is that we get the end game of a production system that allows us to build what we want but not use it. If I have a 100 franks sitting in a pool I should be able to use them in whatever fighter group I want (within army/navy limits). Same goes with the allies.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
It doesn't work, you can't jump from the Wright brothers to the space shuttle in one leap just because you want to. It is just beyond my belief that i am seeing this kind ot nonsense from grogs [8|]

Again very disingenuous since you cant do that and once again it doesnt have anything to do with equiping a sqaudron with a plane that you aready have in your aircraft pool.

But just to humor your attempt to change the argument, all aircraft have service dates that they enter the war, if you want them in early you have to RESEARCH them. Research, sure doesnt sound like going "from the Wright brothers to the space shuttle in one leap" to me. There are also hidden costs and slowdowns in researching aircraft to bring them in early, are there not?

Its real simple put the option to re-equip groups on a toggle at the start of the game with the ahistoric Sub settings and "what if" first turn settings that no one else seems to have a problem with being there.

[Oznoyng]

With guys like Frag representing us to the developers, it is no wonder they aren't going to do this.

[Bodhi]

ORIGINAL: Spooky

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tankerace ... and all the other posters.

I have been a Matrix fanboy since the UV release 2 years ago ... but right now, I have the very unpleasant feeling that the players' feedback is not taken in account - even if a lot of us believe that a "feature" is a big flaw of the game.

Now, I really hope I am wrong and that this lack of communication can be explained by the fact that most of the Matrix staff is at the World Boardgaming Championships.

I doubt Matrix will give an answer on a game design issue, that could only really come from 2by3. Joel is the only one of 2by3 seen on these boards and doesn't seem to post much lately. If it's really that important to you, and you worry that 2by3 haven't seen your opinion, you could always try contacting them directly via email at 2by3@2by3games.com .

[2ndACR]

Come on now.

Mr. Frag can voice any opinion he wants. Just as we can. He has been more then helpful with all of us. maybe he spent MONTHS arguing for the same thing we want now, but lost and it is a sore point with him. I have no problems with anything he has said, even if he takes somethings to the extreme.

I do not want F/A 18's in 1944 (would be nice though) but I would like to be able to mid game look at my pools and say "holly cow I have 300 Franks or such" " now what crappy Oscar group gets new a/c?" At this time I am just stuck like chuck with them. I can produce 10,000 of them if I want, but only about 400 of them will ever be in use at one time by active groups. Yet I have 1000 crappy Oscars being used until I exhaust my pool and then those units are stuck without any a/c to fly.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Come on now.

Mr. Frag can voice any opinion he wants. Just as we can. He has been more then helpful with all of us. maybe he spent MONTHS arguing for the same thing we want now, but lost and it is a sore point with him. I have no problems with anything he has said, even if he takes somethings to the extreme.

I do not want F/A 18's in 1944 (would be nice though) but I would like to be able to mid game look at my pools and say "holly cow I have 300 Franks or such" " now what crappy Oscar group gets new a/c?" At this time I am just stuck like chuck with them. I can produce 10,000 of them if I want, but only about 400 of them will ever be in use at one time by active groups. Yet I have 1000 crappy Oscars being used until I exhaust my pool and then those units are stuck without any a/c to fly.

Frag is a smart guy. The fact that he inflates "let us equip airgroups with planes that the game lets us build that would have been equipped with them had sufficient numbers been available" into "I demand that I can research the F/A-18 because it is better! " and "Remove that and we are playing a RTS ... he who makes the most widgets faster wins. " suggests he is not the right guy to carry this message to the devs.