Übercorsair and übercap

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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TheElf
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Doggie



That's pretty obvious. It seems you have a lot of time on your hands and are looking to be a hero to a bunch of high school kids whose historical perspective is limited to Can Superman beat up Mighty Mouse

Unfortunately, no. I average about 1-2 hours of personal time a night before it's time to get up and make the donuts again. In that time I try to relax and generally avoid the occasional petty dispute on these forums. If you were a regular member of this community you'd know that.

As far as the hero thing, I don't profess to be one. I consider humility and self-deprecating humor two main characteristics of mine, professional qualifications aside.

As to the relative age of the locals here, I put the average between 40-45.

In fact, I can think of exactly one high school student that I've met during my time here.

Termi, you are generally full of shite[;)] but that's a pretty accurate statement.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by timtom »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Re the A6M:

The Zero was a low-wing design, constructed of a lightweight aluminum alloy named "Extra-Super Duraluminum (ESD)", with the exception of fabric-covered rudder and elevators ...

But not everything on the Zero was original.

... Although a two-blade propeller was initially fitted to the first A6M1 prototype, it led to vibration problems and was replaced by a three-blade variable-pitch Hamilton Standard propeller, built under license by Sumitomo.

... The two Type 97 7.7-millimeter machine guns, a license-built British Vickers design, were fitted in the cowling and fired through the propeller using synchronizing gear.


In any case, my WW II aircraft encylopedia claims only 2 airworthy Zeros left, but I've seen planes that "passed" for Zeros -- at least on the outside -- at air shows and in the movies. I recall these faux Zeros were pre-WW II US trainers, but I can't confirm it anywhere.


Paxman: "Starter question for ten: Name this iconic British fighter."

Paxman: "No? Anyone from Scumbag College to buzz?"

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Terminus
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: timtom
ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Re the A6M:

The Zero was a low-wing design, constructed of a lightweight aluminum alloy named "Extra-Super Duraluminum (ESD)", with the exception of fabric-covered rudder and elevators ...

But not everything on the Zero was original.

... Although a two-blade propeller was initially fitted to the first A6M1 prototype, it led to vibration problems and was replaced by a three-blade variable-pitch Hamilton Standard propeller, built under license by Sumitomo.

... The two Type 97 7.7-millimeter machine guns, a license-built British Vickers design, were fitted in the cowling and fired through the propeller using synchronizing gear.


In any case, my WW II aircraft encylopedia claims only 2 airworthy Zeros left, but I've seen planes that "passed" for Zeros -- at least on the outside -- at air shows and in the movies. I recall these faux Zeros were pre-WW II US trainers, but I can't confirm it anywhere.


Paxman: "Starter question for ten: Name this iconic British fighter."

Paxman: "No? Anyone from Scumbag College to buzz?"

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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Terminus

In fact, I can think of exactly one high school student that I've met during my time here.

Termi, you are generally full of shite[;)] but that's a pretty accurate statement.

For extra credit, name that member!
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: Terminus

In fact, I can think of exactly one high school student that I've met during my time here.

Termi, you are generally full of shite[;)] but that's a pretty accurate statement.

For extra credit, name that member!
Gut reaction would be to say Marky, but I'm fairly certain he is of drinking age... I might have to think about this. Is he still around?
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by Terminus »

Nope. He went off to college and subsequently disappeared from the forum; was definitely in high school when I arrived.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by anarchyintheuk »

Alikichi (sp?) or something like that.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Alikichi (sp?) or something like that.

Yeah that answer matches what I know of Alikchi, but I thought when he graduated it was from college...That still doesn't explain why he pulled the Milk carton stunt after being so involved here for so long...
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by mdiehl »

At what point do you say enough detail is enough?

It really depends on what you want the game to look and feel like, and the degree to which you want it to be "like WW2." For me, it's detailed enough if it's got operational planning, and the combat model consistently generates "WW2 like" results, at about the same times as in WW2, but not necessarily in the same places (because, as a consim and a game, it presumes that the players might plan different operations than the ones executed in the real war, or initiate them at different times than in the real war).

I DO think you know you have too much detail if you are adding details to the model when you can't truth those details against something tangible and measurable in the real war. Thus my general loathing of "EXP" anyhow. I used to regard it as a kind of "hold your nose abstraction" in GGPW. Now I just think it's a made up number with no bearing on anything at all. To a degree, I think the values assigned to the various a.c. stats in WitP are the same sort of thing, although they sometimes at least get the relative rank order of different a.c. correct, with respect to speed or durability.
How many places to the right of the decimal point is appropriate in a game like this?

That really depends on how sensitive the combat alogorithm is to the number of decimal places. I suspect one could create a good combat alorithm with a simple numeric rank order of quality. Pilots: 0-bad, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5-best; planes 0-bad, 1,2,3,4,5- best. But that'd be a different game. I liked all that excessive detail in GGPW, 'though regarding it as flawed, found it both annoying and flawed in UV, and excessive (probably because of the larger scale of the game), annoying, and "retaining the same tradition of flaws" in WitP that it had in UV.
There are people here on this forum, long-time players who'd tell you that they don't even want individual pilots.

I'd agree with them.
I happen to also think that EXP SHOULD play a major role as a variable in the A2A routine,

I might agree if "whatever EXP is supposed to be" could be objectively tied to any suite of thingies in the real world. How does the Japanese use of an (inferior) three-plane section, their disdain for radios, or their tendency NOT to fly mutual support factor into "EXP?"
I haven't seen anyone say that USN fighter pilots were inferior to Japanese.

Heh. Wait around a bit. And if "EXP" is a substitute for "General Pilot Ability As An Abstraction of Personal Characteristics, Training, Doctrine, and Combat Experience" then the generally higher Japanese EXP ratings in WitP at-start seems to imply an assumption that the Japanese were better pilots.
it just means that the lowest common denominator when he reached the fleet was better at it in the USN.

Well, then, by WW2 "in real life" results, one would have to conclude with all those slightly inferior lowest-common-denominator types in the USN, then the USN's "highest common denominator" types should have been somewhat better than the Japanese. Otherwise, how come the Japanese didn't dominate versus the USN?
Now the Army Air Corps in 42'? That's a different story.

I'm not certain that is correct. It used to be said by my unesteemed opfor here that the Japanese pilots were simply better than USN ones. Now, at least, in their desperation, they accuse me of claiming that American pilots were vastly better than Japanese (largely because they can't defend against the arguments that I actually make, so they attempt to substitue arguments that they WISH I'd make). But they stand by their claims about the inferiority of US Army pilots. That's why I'm working on compiling loss ratios of the US army pilots. I suspect alot that has been written about the superiority of Japanese pilots qua US Army pilots is also a load of rubbish.
The Zero, when taken in a lb for lb comparison with the F4F, had significant advantages that when taken in sum allowed it's pilots to dictate, in most cases, the terms of the fight, assuming BOTH pilots were aware of the other's presence and when meeting on relatively even terms of position and energy state.

It's an incorrect clai. The Zero couldn't "dictate" anything. At best, it could try to lure an Allied a.c. into a turning engagement until the allied a.c. lost so much energy that the Zero could set it up for a kill. In a face to face attack, the allied planes (even the lowly buffalo) were flat-out better. In level flight, the P-39 and P-40 were faster. All other things being equal, the only planes that the Zeroes could "dictate" to were TBDs, SBDs, F2s, and to a limited extent, F4Fs. When the allied planes had sufficient altitude they had the option of diving out, leaving the Zero far behind, climbing to altitude, and "dictating" a head to head pass -- for which the Allied planes were substantially better suited than the Zero.
There were NO purely offensive tactics developed for the F4F, except diving from superior height.

That's what happens when the OpFor is 12 mph faster.
The Thach weave was not used decisively at Midway.


It worked for Thach at Midway, and two other guys, who improvised a 3 plane weave and used it successfully. It wasn't widely used by the USN until, IIRC, Btl of Eastern Solomons, and the USMC didn't really use it much at all. Mutual support was, however, trained among USN, & USMC aviators before the war even began.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: TheElf
ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Alikichi (sp?) or something like that.

Yeah that answer matches what I know of Alikchi, but I thought when he graduated it was from college...That still doesn't explain why he pulled the Milk carton stunt after being so involved here for so long...

Well, it was Alikchi. He went off to college and developed other interests. But I will agree it was a bit abrupt, right in the middle of his playtest AAR of Iron Storm II. Most improper...[:-]
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by Bombur »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
-Thank you for data. I always wanted to know what were the results of fighter vs fighter combat over the Marianas (I estimated them on 4:1 assuming 2/3 of losses being bombers and 240 planes shot down). But have a little question. What were op. losses for US fighters in this specific action (not counting those lost in the night attacks against IJN fleet). And what were the combat losses in the defense of IJN carriers

I'm not sure if your question is genuine or sarcastic in nature but the short answer is I don't know without looking everything back up again. I only evaluated the 4 raids launched by the Japanese carriers on the first day as that is when the majority of their losses occurred.

If you want me to guess... I would say the US ops losses from the last attack on the IJN carriers were probably quite substantial.

Chez

-The question is genuine. This is new info for me, one that I always wanted to know. I´m thinking more about USN op losses in the 4 raids and combat losses for the strike against IJN carriers (were all the 20 losses due to combat?). Once I read an account about 20-30 US planes lost over the IJN carriers, but I´m not sure. Op losses in that strike were about 100 as the planes came back at night.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by Bombur »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
-Thank you for data. I always wanted to know what were the results of fighter vs fighter combat over the Marianas (I estimated them on 4:1 assuming 2/3 of losses being bombers and 240 planes shot down). But have a little question. What were op. losses for US fighters in this specific action (not counting those lost in the night attacks against IJN fleet). And what were the combat losses in the defense of IJN carriers

I'm not sure if your question is genuine or sarcastic in nature but the short answer is I don't know without looking everything back up again. I only evaluated the 4 raids launched by the Japanese carriers on the first day as that is when the majority of their losses occurred.

If you want me to guess... I would say the US ops losses from the last attack on the IJN carriers were probably quite substantial.

Chez

Bombur is for real. He's been a long time playtester and PBEM partner of mine for Nikmod.

-Thank you Nik.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by TheElf »


I happen to also think that EXP SHOULD play a major role as a variable in the A2A routine,

I might agree if "whatever EXP is supposed to be" could be objectively tied to any suite of thingies in the real world. How does the Japanese use of an (inferior) three-plane section, their disdain for radios, or their tendency NOT to fly mutual support factor into "EXP?"

I agree that EXP as it is called in the game is one dimensional, but this entire program is a lesson in abstraction. It attempts to cover all the bases, from the smallest bullet to the largest warship, to the inner thoughts and feelings of a single pilot. You have to make compromises or else this game would still be in development. You just can't have your cake and eat it too. So what is your answer, don't play? That's a personal decision. I don't think many people would argue that your general opinions are wrong, they are just a bit unrealistic considering the age of the engine, the legacy of the code, and the scope of the game. The difference is they accept it for what it is, and game.

Your suite of thingies would be nice to have, but it just isn't practical as disappointing as that sounds.

Japanese pilots were trained to use mutual support, they just tended to put their fangs out and clung to the samurai ethos. It tended to foster a perception that they were undisciplined, yes but to say they were ignorant of mutual support is a bit exclusive. You'll probably begin to see that I am not a fan of the exclusive statement.

The fact is they did work together, and by late 43 had already seen the light vis a vis division tactics, but like the Thach weave, dissemination and tactical development took time.

But before that they used a Shotai manuever called the "Prince of Wales". When attacked from above and at a disadvantage the two wingmen would turn into the attackers to defeat the shot, while the leader would climb for altitude and gain position for attack. I'll post a diagram when able...

Unfortunately to call that EXP is inaccurate. It would be more accurate to call three-plane section, their disdain for radios, or their tendency NOT to fly mutual support doctrine. There is no line of code that accounts for doctrine, though I wish there were. But doctrine changed so much during the war that it would be a lifetime achievement for someone to code it all for every facet of the war that this game attempts to cover. You'd have to code doctrine in a sort of "cliff notes" fashion, hit the high points.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by TheElf »

The Thach weave was not used decisively at Midway.


It worked for Thach at Midway, and two other guys, who improvised a 3 plane weave and used it successfully. It wasn't widely used by the USN until, IIRC, Btl of Eastern Solomons, and the USMC didn't really use it much at all.

exactly.
Mutual support was, however, trained among USN, & USMC aviators before the war even began.

It still is.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by bobogoboom »


Man this one has really gotten good.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The Zero, when taken in a lb for lb comparison with the F4F, had significant advantages that when taken in sum allowed it's pilots to dictate, in most cases, the terms of the fight, assuming BOTH pilots were aware of the other's presence and when meeting on relatively even terms of position and energy state.

It's an incorrect clai. The Zero couldn't "dictate" anything. At best, it could try to lure an Allied a.c. into a turning engagement until the allied a.c. lost so much energy that the Zero could set it up for a kill. In a face to face attack, the allied planes (even the lowly buffalo) were flat-out better. In level flight, the P-39 and P-40 were faster. All other things being equal, the only planes that the Zeroes could "dictate" to were TBDs, SBDs, F2s, and to a limited extent, F4Fs. When the allied planes had sufficient altitude they had the option of diving out, leaving the Zero far behind, climbing to altitude, and "dictating" a head to head pass -- for which the Allied planes were substantially better suited than the Zero.

It is indeed suprising that any of our pilots returned alive. Any success our fighter pilots may have had against the Japanese Zero fighter is not due to the performance of the airplane we fly but is the result of the comparatively poor marksmanship of the Japanese, stupid mistakes made by a few of their pilots and superior marksmanship and team work of some of our pilots. The only way we can ever bring our guns to bear on the Zero is to trick them into recovering in front of an F4F or shoot them when they are preoccupied in firing at one of our own planes. - Jimmy Thach, after Midway

He squarely stated his exasperation: versus the Zero fighter, the Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat was "pitifully inferior in climb, Maneuverability, and speed." Even deleting the armor and self-sealing tanks to save weight would not, in his opinion, "increase the performance of the F4F sufficiently to come anywhere near the performance of the Zero fighter...Chap. 18 First Team p. 441

You have to be familiar with this if you've read Lundstrom. It seems to me Jimmy Thach thought exactly the opposite re: who's luring who...
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: TheElf

It is indeed suprising that any of our pilots returned alive. Any success our fighter pilots may have had against the Japanese Zero fighter is not due to the performance of the airplane we fly but is the result of the comparatively poor marksmanship of the Japanese, stupid mistakes made by a few of their pilots and superior marksmanship and team work of some of our pilots. The only way we can ever bring our guns to bear on the Zero is to trick them into recovering in front of an F4F or shoot them when they are preoccupied in firing at one of our own planes. - Jimmy Thach, after Midway

He squarely stated his exasperation: versus the Zero fighter, the Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat was "pitifully inferior in climb, Maneuverability, and speed." Even deleting the armor and self-sealing tanks to save weight would not, in his opinion, "increase the performance of the F4F sufficiently to come anywhere near the performance of the Zero fighter...Chap. 18 First Team p. 441

You have to be familiar with this if you've read Lundstrom. It seems to me Jimmy Thach thinks exactly the opposite re: who's luring who...
But be fair - that was after Thach's fight at Midway where he and his flight was terribly outnumbered - so bad they had to fly his weave for survival, that's why he said it's surprising any of them came back alive, and had not a chance to point their guns at a Zero...
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by TheElf »

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: TheElf

It is indeed suprising that any of our pilots returned alive. Any success our fighter pilots may have had against the Japanese Zero fighter is not due to the performance of the airplane we fly but is the result of the comparatively poor marksmanship of the Japanese, stupid mistakes made by a few of their pilots and superior marksmanship and team work of some of our pilots. The only way we can ever bring our guns to bear on the Zero is to trick them into recovering in front of an F4F or shoot them when they are preoccupied in firing at one of our own planes. - Jimmy Thach, after Midway

He squarely stated his exasperation: versus the Zero fighter, the Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat was "pitifully inferior in climb, Maneuverability, and speed." Even deleting the armor and self-sealing tanks to save weight would not, in his opinion, "increase the performance of the F4F sufficiently to come anywhere near the performance of the Zero fighter...Chap. 18 First Team p. 441

You have to be familiar with this if you've read Lundstrom. It seems to me Jimmy Thach thinks exactly the opposite re: who's luring who...
But be fair - that was after Thach's fight at Midway where he and his flight was terribly outnumbered - so bad they had to fly his weave for survival, that's why he said it's surprising any of them came back alive, and had not a chance to point their guns at a Zero...

that's exactly right, and if you'd let Mdeihl respond he'd have said,:

"Maybe so. Thach's assessment of Japanese pilots was that they weren't exceptionally skillful aviators, were lousy shots, and could be induced to make dumb mistakes. At least that's how I read it. Certainly, when one knew what the Zero's strengths and weaknesses were, US doctrine evolved to eliminate its strengths."

"Personally, I think doctrine is one of those things that make a good pilot. And if we treat WitP's "EXP" as an index of "pilot ability" and therefore something that should reflect USN superior deflection shooting, superior doctrine, and also IJN greater combat experience, then I think the "EXP" scores of the USN early war aviators should be greater on average than the early war veteran Japanese aviators."


It was US doctrine that put Thach in that position, and though he rightly disagreed with it, he was operating under his chain of Command's imposed limitations.
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by TheElf »

...til tomorrow then
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RE: Übercorsair and übercap

Post by Big B »

Doctrine? - he was outnumbered flying an escort mission.
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