Letters from Iwo Jima

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Hortlund
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
It's actually not the exception to the rule as one can see collective guilt being applied in lawsuits all the time (at least here in the US). When a particular employee engages in illegal behavior, the company can often be held responsible in addition to the individual.

Not really, what you are talking about here is something completely different, a company becoming liable because of the actions of an employee. For your analogy to work, every single person working for the company would become personally liable if one employee did something wrong. That is clearly not how it works.

Even today SS membership denies one from receiving military benefits, no? This is predicated upon the collective guilt of being in the SS in the first place.
What is your source for the claim that no Waffen SS soldier is recieving military benefits today?
I see nothing in doggie's post that denotes it was based upon racist stereotyping.

Whatever. If you fail to see the racist stereotyping in a post where someone says that all Japanese were murderous savages...who also smelled bad, then Im afraid I cant help you.
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Hortlund
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc
The idea is that the 'corporate responsibility' that you allude to has to do with a collective (the corporate organization) is responsible for the actions of it's individual parts. It's not different than the organization of the SS being held responsible for the actions of it's members (as well as it's policies).

You really need to drop this line of reasoning because you are barking up the wrong tree. Corporate liability when an employer does something bad is based on the notion that the employer is a representative of the company, and therefore his actions can cause the company to become liable for something. Here, the company becomes liable because the employee was acting on their behalf. Now, since the company is a separate legal entity, and since the employee is doing something as a representative of the company, the company can become liable.

Collective guilt would require the employee doing something so every single employee became liable. And...as you might suspect...that doesnt happen. Why, I hear you ask? Because there is no such thing as collective guilt in our legal or moral tradition here in the western civilization.
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mdiehl
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by mdiehl »

I see nothing in doggie's post that denotes it was based upon racist stereotyping.

Agreed. Doggie's observation that no film made in the west or in Japan would dare to portray the Japanese military hierarchy (and its effects down to individual soldiers, a large proportion of them) as exhibiting the degree of sadistic brutality that they actually embraced is also correct.

And, yeah, Sweden (and also Croatia, Serbia, Netherlands, Poland, Vichy France, Finland, Slovakia, UK, &c) also had concentration camps specifically for the interment of civilians (not just airmen or prisoners of war) of the "wrong" ethnic, religious, or national group.

But there are some important differences. The only nations to operate Concentration Camps with the specific intent to murder internees were Vichy France, Italy, Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovakia, Japan (in particular in occupied Burma and the Phillippines), and Nazi puppet-states. Lumping the US Japanese-American interment camps into the same category with the Nazi, Vichy and Japanese operated ones is sophomoric and uninformative.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by robpost3 »

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Collective guilt would require the employee doing something so every single employee became liable. And...as you might suspect...that doesnt happen. Why, I hear you ask? Because there is no such thing as collective guilt in our legal or moral tradition here in the western civilization.

If you do not exclude religion from moral tradition, then is not the Catholic religon (as well as some other religons) based on collective guilt...you are asked quite plainly "when your last confession was", and the whole premise of confession is that no one person is perfect or immune to some level of sin. We (Catholics) all collectively as a whole are to "ask for forgivness" at the end of days.
Also as you stated vis the Nuremberg Principles precedence is almost established as collective guilt for prosecution.
Being a laymen further study seems to conclude the Command Responsibility also favors a judgement of guilt shared.
I am curious as to your "personal" view: Do you beliveve that guilt can be shared collectively?
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Hortlund
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

ORIGINAL: robpost3
Also as you stated vis the Nuremberg Principles precedence is almost established as collective guilt for prosecution.
Being a laymen further study seems to conclude the Command Responsibility also favors a judgement of guilt shared.

No, what Nuremberg tells us is two things
1) It is possible to punish a person even if he is following the law of his own nation, and would be punished by his own nation if he didnt, and
2) That "I was only following orders" is not a valid line of defence in warcrime-trials.

A prosecutor still must show how the defendant has committed a warcrime, i e guilt is tried on the individual level.
I am curious as to your "personal" view: Do you beliveve that guilt can be shared collectively?

Can you give some sort of example on what you have in mind here?
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Hortlund
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

And, yeah, Sweden (and also Croatia, Serbia, Netherlands, Poland, Vichy France, Finland, Slovakia, UK, &c) also had concentration camps specifically for the interment of civilians (not just airmen or prisoners of war) of the "wrong" ethnic, religious, or national group.

Nope, I cant vouch for the others, but Sweden did not have camps (concentration or otherwise) for the internment of swedish citizens. Whoever told you that was wrong.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

Here mdiehl. Racist remarks bolded.

ORIGINAL: Doggie

They were stinking savages, and that's why Dutch, Australians, British, and American soldiers seldom took prisoners, and allied airmen happily strafed the miserable bastards in their lifeboats after sinking their ships. And they had every bit of it coming to them.


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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by robpost3 »

Can you give some sort of example on what you have in mind here?

yes,
technically I understand the complexity of assiging guilt as group in a legal procedding, but personally I see it all time in society...
as in superficial situations for ex: many people feel guilty about thier weight or lifestyle due to advertiser imposed suggestions of what the ideal person should look like.
Or sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner and pausing to reflect on the have nots and being thankful for what you have is a form shared guilt also.
There are many levels in which guilt is shared as well as assigned on collective levels.
So personally I believe guilt can be shared as a group but is it healthy or purposfull.
Yet if we passed on guilt collectively would histories atrocities repeat themselves?
Like so many lessons learned by negative stimuli, may be in some cases it is necessary.


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Reiryc
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Not really, what you are talking about here is something completely different, a company becoming liable because of the actions of an employee. For your analogy to work, every single person working for the company would become personally liable if one employee did something wrong. That is clearly not how it works.

I disagree.

Every single member of the SS was not personally held liable for the actions of the whole. Instead, they suffered through the loss of benefits. Similarly when a company that offers profit sharing as a company benefit for working there has to either lower it's quarterly/yearly payout or eliminate it altogether due to being held liable for the actions of an employee, then the corporation is being collectively held responsible.
What is your source for the claim that no Waffen SS soldier is recieving military benefits today?

Well you've changed what I wrote, which seems convenient, but let's assume for a moment this was unintentional. Let's just deal with the specifics of your question and look to this source as one:

"Controversy raged during the 1950s and 1960s as Waffen-SS veteran groups fought high-profile legal battles in the newly founded West Germany to overturn the Nuremberg ruling, and win pension rights for their members. The judgement of Nuremberg could not be overturned, but in the ensuing refighting of history, many of the former enemies of the Waffen-SS appeared to question the old black-and-white assessment of Hitler's élite troops."

http://www.germanwarmachine.com/waffens ... uction.htm
Whatever. If you fail to see the racist stereotyping in a post where someone says that all Japanese were murderous savages...who also smelled bad, then Im afraid I cant help you.

Agreed, you can't help. If someone said the same things about members of the SS, there would be no claims to racism. Mention it about a group consisting of non-europeans and suddenly it's racism. [8|]

You really need to drop this line of reasoning because you are barking up the wrong tree. Corporate liability when an employer does something bad is based on the notion that the employer is a representative of the company, and therefore his actions can cause the company to become liable for something. Here, the company becomes liable because the employee was acting on their behalf. Now, since the company is a separate legal entity, and since the employee is doing something as a representative of the company, the company can become liable.

Sounds like some of the reasoning used for the collective guilt of the SS, SA, and other groups.
Collective guilt would require the employee doing something so every single employee became liable. And...as you might suspect...that doesnt happen. Why, I hear you ask? Because there is no such thing as collective guilt in our legal or moral tradition here in the western civilization.

Since when is christianity not a part of the moral tradition in western civilization and with it the moral argument of original sin and the 'sins of the father being put on the children'?
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by mdiehl »

http://www.immi.se/intercultural/nr12/meyer.htm
A German refugee who stayed in Norway in the 1930s, fled to Sweden when Norway was occupied in 1940. He was arrested in Sweden and the encounter with the police there differed a lot from what he was used to from the Norwegian police. "What I supposed was meant to be a routine series of questions and answers, ended with my being arrested. My declarations did not seem to satisfy the officers. The examination was repeated during the following days. (...) The cell was so clean, it shined. It literally smelled as if it had been sterilized."

Perhaps this jail cell was an extreme example. Still, in a wider sense, it does reflect the experiences of the German refugees in Sweden, who felt unwelcome and abandoned to the whims and dictates of arbitrary bureaucratic rule. The encounters they had with the Swedish bureaucratic apparatus led to very disempowering experiences. "Swedish was the name I gave to all of the bureaucratic experiences I had in the following years" was the concluding remark from one German refugee who now lived in Denmark. He told a story about his experiences of being arrested and being placed in a Swedish internment camp where it was forbidden to write. All of the German refugees complained about the rule forbidding them to write. The Swedish authorities running the camp finally hit upon a solution. "Some wise men in the Department of Social Affairs had, in an extraordinarily bureaucratic manner, managed to prepare a form letter to be signed by individuals who were interned in the camp. (...) I am, at present, a refugee in Sweden. I am fine. If you want to write to me, send your letters to the Department of Social Affairs, Stockholm."

Arrested and interned in Sweden in a camp full of German refugees who fled the Nazis only to be arrested in Sweden simply for being German.

Sweden also operated "concentration camps" for "Communists and other troublemakers" (Storsien).

Of course, as with Western Allied (including American) interment camps, these Swedish ones were not an element in a programmatic effort at extirpating ethnic or religious minorities. To reiterate, the comparison of western (and others') internment camps with Nazi, Nazi-allied, Vicy, or Japanese concentration camps is an absurd comparison.



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Reiryc
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Here mdiehl. Racist remarks bolded.

ORIGINAL: Doggie

They were stinking savages, and that's why Dutch, Australians, British, and American soldiers seldom took prisoners, and allied airmen happily strafed the miserable bastards in their lifeboats after sinking their ships. And they had every bit of it coming to them.



Maybe you don't know what the word racist means given that you aren't a native speaker:


Main Entry:
rac·ism Listen to the pronunciation of racism
Pronunciation:
\ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
Function:
noun
Date:
1933

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/racist



There is nothing racist about calling a group savages due to their behavior. It would be racist if he said that they were savages simply because they are japanese, but he did not. He referred to their actions and posted a link to an article which described some of their savage behavior.

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mdiehl
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by mdiehl »

They were stinking savages, and that's why Dutch, Australians, British, and American soldiers seldom took prisoners, and allied airmen happily strafed the miserable bastards in their lifeboats after sinking their ships. And they had every bit of it coming to them.

Yes. Doggie said that. IMO that's not racism or even racialism. It is, rather, a pretty fair and accurate objective summary of the general status of Imperial Japanese military conduct.

I think "stinking savages" is a fair, just, balanced, and accurate description of a good many "ordinary" Japanese combatants. Not all Japanese, I suppose, and after all that is your point. But strafing every man jack of the Japanese 6th Infantry Division (IIRC that is the correct unit, which was the one famous for its treatment of the occupants of Nanking) would have been appropriate. There is a clear record of Japanese savage brutality that extended to all ranks of many different organizations from the Japanese servicemen on Wake Island who willingly carried out orders to execute civilian as well as military prisoners of war, the Japanese army soldiers on Okinawa who murdered thousands of Okinawans in 1945, the Japanese army and navy personnel in Manila who systematically hunted down Filipino civilians, raped them serially, locked them in the upper floors of houses, and burned the houses down, the Japanese army's Thai-Burma railway extermination camps, never mind the millions of individual incidents in China apart from Nanking.

It really does all add up to a widespread and pervasive embrace of "stinking savagery" at all ranks of all Imperial Japanese military structures by any objective standard.

Thank the fortune that however Japan may now whitewash that whole history, at least Japanese have the sense not to embrace that sort of thing.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Dixie »

Calling an entire race stinking savages isn't racism? [&:] Surely saying that an entire race stinks is prejudice. And if not maybe someone could explain why.
(Without name-calling, trolling or changing the subject. it's asking a lot I know, but it could happen...)
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
A German refugee who stayed in Norway in the 1930s, fled to Sweden when Norway was occupied in 1940. He was arrested in Sweden and the encounter with the police there differed a lot from what he was used to from the Norwegian police. "What I supposed was meant to be a routine series of questions and answers, ended with my being arrested. My declarations did not seem to satisfy the officers. The examination was repeated during the following days. (...) The cell was so clean, it shined. It literally smelled as if it had been sterilized."

blah blah
Thanks for proving my point. As I said, no Swedish citizen was put in these camps. That we had refugee camps for large numbers of refugees, and internment camps for foreign soldiers is completely leagal and a whole different matter.

In the US camps, US citizens were incarcerated because of their ethnicity. That means that the US was alone, together with Germany and Japan put their own citizens in these camps because of their ethnicity.
Sweden also operated "concentration camps" for "Communists and other troublemakers" (Storsien).
False. And you should stop trying to find facts on wikipedia.
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Hortlund
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Yes. Doggie said that. IMO that's not racism or even racialism. It is, rather, a pretty fair and accurate objective summary of the general status of Imperial Japanese military conduct.

I think "stinking savages" is a fair, just, balanced, and accurate description of a good many "ordinary" Japanese combatants.

Are you serious?
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Reiryc
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Reiryc »

ORIGINAL: Dixie

Calling an entire race stinking savages isn't racism? [&:] Surely saying that an entire race stinks is prejudice. And if not maybe someone could explain why.
(Without name-calling, trolling or changing the subject. it's asking a lot I know, but it could happen...)

I don't see where he called an entire race stinking savages. I do see where he called the people in the military stinking savages based upon their actions however...

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

There is nothing racist about calling a group savages due to their behavior. It would be racist if he said that they were savages simply because they are japanese, but he did not. He referred to their actions and posted a link to an article which described some of their savage behavior.

He said all japanese were stinking savages. That is racist. Period. Why you are in here trying to defend that is beyond me.
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by martxyz »

Can I ust add a touch of cynicism. While the Japanese were raping Nanking, and half the rest of the east, the brave American soldiers and airmen were in their bases, and enjoying the same peaceful, wealthy lifestyles that the average US citizen carried on having throughout the war, which, incidentally, the US did not bother to join, and become "outraged" about until they were bombed at Pearl harbour, which was a great source of relief to most of the british cabinet who thought that maybe the US would now put it's forces where it's "outrage" was. The incident will not go down in the history of infamy, regardless of poular belief. It was a mere pinprick.  Thousands upon thousands of other innocent people died that day, and every day for years at the hands of the Japanese and Nazis. The Japanese also made a pre-emptive strike on Port Arthur during their war with Russia, and nobody seemed to bothered then, and the Japanese army treated prisoners very well.

A good deal of cant is trotted out about all this. Is someone a savage if they stand by, quite comfortably, watching other people butcher each other, or is it only the butcherers that are savages? If you were all so bothere over in the US, you'd have pulled your fingers out in 1939, or maybe earlier in the case of China. Still, mustn't let anything get in the way of a good burger.


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Hortlund
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by Hortlund »

ORIGINAL: Reiryc

I don't see where he called an entire race stinking savages. I do see where he called the people in the military stinking savages based upon their actions however...

He didnt call the people in the military stinking savages based on their actions however. He called them stinking savages for being japanese, and everyone knows how evil the japanese were. Without exception. That is racist.
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martxyz
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

Post by martxyz »

PS. It WAS racist to call all Japanese savages. Period.
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