DW - Starfall Ver 1.12

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fierceking
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:54 pm

RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

ORIGINAL: Zangi

So, I see this pirate hyperdrive research, but... it is actually a generator. Something be wrong with it?

The pirate tech is not for the player but for the pirates in-game.

Image


For all the mods out there that changed the speed of hyperdrives pre-warp, the pirates got nerfed pretty bad. Every mod had the same problem if they lowered the hyperspeeds. Pirates were so slow too that they were almost useless in the game.

I think I've found a way to fix this and now the pirates are a menace again. During pre-warp, they should harass the player and AI more often.
fierceking
Posts: 236
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

ORIGINAL: bavarian kid

minor issues with 0.9

1.) Naxxilian ground troops - at least infantry - have no unit images. Ground report screen is empty.

2.) "Advanced Laser Focusing" has lower range than previous "Laser Focusing". Intended ?


The laser tech is intended and there was a bunch of typos in the Naxxilian images. I named them Naxxlian or 1 was Naxxllian.
mordachai
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by mordachai »

How did you limit the hyperdrive tech to just pirates? My mod has nerfed early warp speeds - and I would love to fix that for the pirates...
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Kingah
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Location: Teeka

RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by Kingah »

So this means that the mod is being worked on again? (once your break is over ofc)?
fierceking
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:54 pm

RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

ORIGINAL: mordachai

How did you limit the hyperdrive tech to just pirates? My mod has nerfed early warp speeds - and I would love to fix that for the pirates...
I'm doing more testing right now so I don't want to explain yet just in case it there's things I missed. It looks promising thought since I'm starting to hate pirates again.

Just need to test more...
fierceking
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:54 pm

RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

ORIGINAL: Kingah

So this means that the mod is being worked on again? (once your break is over ofc)?
I am working on it again although focusing mainly on tech tree right now since the bug was fixed.
mordachai
Posts: 798
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by mordachai »

ORIGINAL: fierceking
ORIGINAL: mordachai
How did you limit the hyperdrive tech to just pirates? My mod has nerfed early warp speeds - and I would love to fix that for the pirates...
I'm doing more testing right now so I don't want to explain yet just in case it there's things I missed. It looks promising thought since I'm starting to hate pirates again.
Just need to test more...
I hear that! Even with all of the nerfing that is inherent to the slow speed mods, they're still freaking annoying. But they can't do their smuggling thing worth a damn without better engines... so, I'll be listening intently to see if you've got a good solution!
bavarian kid
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by bavarian kid »

Vaxxok charakter - named Va-Afreeke-xon - lacks an image.
fierceking
Posts: 236
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.4

Post by fierceking »

ORIGINAL: Regularity

It's a shame to hear you won't be updating the mod any more. I know it's probably unfair of me to ask at this point, but is there any chance you'll at least finished the in-game encyclopaedia to include all the different races and resources? I can't speak for others, but it's reeeeallly hard to remember the individual traits of dozens and dozens of different races, and I keep having to stop in mid-game to minimize the game, open my browser, and surf the thread to look up racial info. Having it in-game would be wonderful!

But I also understand you're bringing the development of this mod to a close, so I'll understand if you want to say no. It's just that if you're going to close up shop, I think at least finishing the in-game encyclopaedia will help it feel "complete" and not alienate new players who may have a harder time finding the info without having the thread bookmarked.
I had some time so I worked on the races Galactopedia. I still need to work on lore for most of them but at least now all races can be accessed by the Galactopedia and you will be able to see the race's individual stats.

This will be included in my next update.
fierceking
Posts: 236
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

ORIGINAL: bavarian kid

Vaxxok charakter - named Va-Afreeke-xon - lacks an image.
Thanx for letting me know.

There was a typo with one of the pics race57-9.png should be race57-9x.png.
fierceking
Posts: 236
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

ORIGINAL: mordachai
How did you limit the hyperdrive tech to just pirates? My mod has nerfed early warp speeds - and I would
I hear that! Even with all of the nerfing that is inherent to the slow speed mods, they're still freaking annoying. But they can't do their smuggling thing worth a damn without better engines... so, I'll be listening intently to see if you've got a good solution!

It's a bit hard to explain so maybe this diagram might help me explain better...

Image


The numbers in this pic is the speed of the hyderdrives per level. So Warp field precursor in this diagram is 2800 and Gerax hyperddrive is 6000. This is great if you want to limit expansion early on in a pre-warp game. The problem is that the pirates are by default given level 1 techs hyperdrive and 6000 is too slow for them to travel from solar system to another solar system. You could increase this speed but then you sacrifice the slower progression for the player and AI races.

My solution is to make another tech line of hyperdrives that start at tech level 1. In a pre-warp game, the player starts at 0 so they can't access this tech. The pirates though, gets all the tech level 1 already researched so they get this hyperdrive right away. So in this diagram, they have hyperdrive speed of 11500.

Image

Then I thought of a problem that if the player wants to start a game at tech level 1 or more then they get access to all these hyperdrive techs. The player would then just research the pirate hyperdrive tech line and ignore the other hyperdrives.

So my solution is to make it so that the new hyperdrive tech line is useless to the player as the tech level progresses. This way the player has to choose the original hyperdrives. So it works but there are drawbacks.



Then I started to add more stuff just to see what happens and test even more...

Image

From this pic you can see that I can't research those techs even though I'm able to research hyperdrive level 3s. So technically it works but with my additions it looks like the pirates are now overpowered and needs toning down.

You get the idea that it's possible to boost the pirates
mordachai
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by mordachai »

Okay - I apologize - I feel like you've presented the solution, but somehow I'm not seeing it [&:]

I see how you setup the pirate's values - that's straight-forward: a new line of hyperdrives.

But how did you enable that line only to pirates? The last screenshot clearly shows that you've researched several techs, but that the pirate hyperdrive is not enabled... did you use "AllowedRaces"? Or... by what mechanism is this line restricted to pirates-only? That's the piece I can't figure out.

Thanks for taking the time to put the above up! I hope that the answer I'm looking for will either occur to me, or is easy for you to explain. :D

Maybe the <race>.txt file under race\?? Maybe the "DisallowedCompoents:" entry for all of the non-pirates?
fierceking
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

I created a techline that starts at level 1. Any race starting at pre-warp (tech level 0) can't research it because it is not connected to a tech that is level 0.

I did not use Allowed Races because there is nothing to allow or disallow. I wish that was possible but it's not.

If you create a new tech line from level 1 to level whatever and I assume your using Icemania's mod, this means that none of the races in your mod would research this new tech line (if you created a new line). Since their research order is determined by

WeaponsResearchProjectOrder
EnergyResearchProjectOrder
HighTechResearchProjectOrder

So the only ones that has access to it are the pirates. Although I'm not entirely sure if pirates research techs level 2 and upwards

Like I said, the only problem is if the player decides to start all races at level1 or above. Not sure how to bypass that.
ORIGINAL: mordachai
Maybe the <race>.txt file under race\?? Maybe the "DisallowedCompoents:" entry for all of the non-pirates?
I thought about this but if you disallow a component....lets say hyperdrives then it block all hyperdrives for that race. So that won't work.
mordachai
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by mordachai »

No way! You can't block... say "Gerax" but allow "Dal-Calista"?

I didn't know that about techs requiring a level zero connection. I'm... surprised. I thought that many started at lvl 1+ but were still researchable? I feel like... I know that this must be, because in my mod point-defense has no connections to anything else, starts at level 2? Or is it that level 1 is "special" and this rule only holds for those that start at 1?
fierceking
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

I think it's a special case for hyperdrive because you have to explore to be able to research it
mordachai
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by mordachai »

Thanks for the explanation! Sounds like a reasonable approach, even if the player (or AI) may be able to research it for lvl 1 starts, it's still a useful technique until we do have a "disallowrace" or something more direct.
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Osito
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by Osito »

It's still unclear to me how this pirate thing would work.

1. Starting a tech at level 1, not connected to a level 0 tech, does not in itself prevent that tech from being researched (although it will probably not start off researched in a pre-warp start). Check out the tech 'Shields' for example. I tested this extensively when doing my 'research unleashed' mod, but I couldn't stop races being able to research techs not connected to a level 1 tech.
2. I don't think hyperdrive, in itself, has an 'explore' requirement. You give it the explore requirement by selecting special function code '2=primitive hyperdrive tech (warp bubble) that must be unlocked before can be researched'. However, if you do it this way, wouldn't non-pirates would be able to find the tech by exploration (the same way warp-bubble is found by exploration in pre-warp games)?
3. Research orders would stop AI empires from researching the tech, but not the player.

There might be a way to do it with a combination of research orders and very high tech cost. The research orders would prevent the AI from researching the tech, while a very high tech cost would deter the player from doing the research. However, if an AI player ever did get the chance to research the tech, it would probably screw the AI's game. Having said that, I don't like the research orders feature, because it locks each AI race into always doing the same thing. I'd prefer having a clearer tech tree which makes it less difficult for the AI to go wrong, together with a small number of tech orders (no more than 5-10 for each race) to get them off to a particular start.

The problem is that although we can disallow races, we can't disallow pirates or non-pirates. The game could really use an additional tech flag for 'pirates only' and 'non-pirates only'.

Edit, thinking about it some more, maybe you could do this, but it would require some work. You would have to do this:

(i) Go through all the existing 'races'.txt and change:
'Can be Pirate: indicates whether this race can be a pirate faction or not (Y/N)
CanBePirate ;N'

(ii) Create a new set of races (call them 'racename (Pirate)' or whatever - e.g. 'Human (Pirate)', which you want to be pirates, select the flag in (i) above to be 'Y' and also change:
'Can be Normal Empire: indicates whether this race can be a normal empire or not (Y/N) (e.g. may set as only CanBePirate, but not CanBeNormalEmpire)
CanBeNormalEmpire ;N'

(iii) For the pirate hyperdrive tech, select the allowed races to be only those races which are pirates.

I think that would actually achieve the affect you're thinking of. I might even consider doing it for my own mod.

Osito

Osito
mordachai
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by mordachai »

Ooooh, that's a great idea. Annoying, yes. Workable: worth trying! You might be able to use the races/*.txt "DisallowedComponent" instead of the research.txt "AllowedRaces" to have a cleaner way of saying which hyperdrives were off-limits / allowed to pirates & non-pirates. Also keeps the data in the same place.
bavarian kid
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RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by bavarian kid »

Playing as Boskara

1.) For testing, I set the game to "Rule in absence". Right from the start, unique weapon "Boskar Firestorm" is available. However, ship designs do not use the unique Boskar Firestorm, only the standard Epsilon Torpedos. Maybe an update to make Boskara ships use the racial tech Boskar Firestorm [;)] ?

2.) In the weapons tech tree, Boskar Firestorm has a Bombard damage of 6M in "Plasma Fusing". However at later tech levels, Bombard damage is listed as 0M. Intended ?
fierceking
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:54 pm

RE: [WIP] DW - Starfall - version 0.9

Post by fierceking »

ORIGINAL: Osito

It's still unclear to me how this pirate thing would work.

1. Starting a tech at level 1, not connected to a level 0 tech, does not in itself prevent that tech from being researched (although it will probably not start off researched in a pre-warp start). Check out the tech 'Shields' for example. I tested this extensively when doing my 'research unleashed' mod, but I couldn't stop races being able to research techs not connected to a level 1 tech.
2. I don't think hyperdrive, in itself, has an 'explore' requirement. You give it the explore requirement by selecting special function code '2=primitive hyperdrive tech (warp bubble) that must be unlocked before can be researched'. However, if you do it this way, wouldn't non-pirates would be able to find the tech by exploration (the same way warp-bubble is found by exploration in pre-warp games)?
3. Research orders would stop AI empires from researching the tech, but not the player.

There might be a way to do it with a combination of research orders and very high tech cost. The research orders would prevent the AI from researching the tech, while a very high tech cost would deter the player from doing the research. However, if an AI player ever did get the chance to research the tech, it would probably screw the AI's game. Having said that, I don't like the research orders feature, because it locks each AI race into always doing the same thing. I'd prefer having a clearer tech tree which makes it less difficult for the AI to go wrong, together with a small number of tech orders (no more than 5-10 for each race) to get them off to a particular start.

The problem is that although we can disallow races, we can't disallow pirates or non-pirates. The game could really use an additional tech flag for 'pirates only' and 'non-pirates only'.

Edit, thinking about it some more, maybe you could do this, but it would require some work. You would have to do this:

(i) Go through all the existing 'races'.txt and change:
'Can be Pirate: indicates whether this race can be a pirate faction or not (Y/N)
CanBePirate ;N'

(ii) Create a new set of races (call them 'racename (Pirate)' or whatever - e.g. 'Human (Pirate)', which you want to be pirates, select the flag in (i) above to be 'Y' and also change:
'Can be Normal Empire: indicates whether this race can be a normal empire or not (Y/N) (e.g. may set as only CanBePirate, but not CanBeNormalEmpire)
CanBeNormalEmpire ;N'

(iii) For the pirate hyperdrive tech, select the allowed races to be only those races which are pirates.

I think that would actually achieve the affect you're thinking of. I might even consider doing it for my own mod.

Osito

That would actually work. But a lot work would be needed just to make pirates speed up at pre-warp. I'm not sure it's worth the effort involved. For my mod with 70 races that's just way too much work. It would be like having 70 other races as pirates. I'm not even sure what the race cap is for the new beta 12.

One thing to consider is will these pirates be as non-playable race? Since these would technically be races then what to pick and choosee add to your game when starting a new game?

Also pirate images could be a problem since all pirate races would be using the same images unless you modify the original images somehow?

I'm think just gonna stick with what works for me.

Image


The AI and player cannot research what I designed because the "2=primitive hyperdrive tech (warp bubble) that must be unlocked before can be researched" flag cannot be triggered.

The only way the AI or player can explore it is if it actually existed in the game to be explored. To do that, you would have to manually add a ruin with that tech to each system so that it can be explored.

Also after thinking about it more, if the player decides to start off at level 1 or above then there really is no problem with pirates travelling slowly since this problem only occurs during pre-warp
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