Allied aircraft production figures

[ctangus]

I also looked at overall figures. 24,945 USAAF planes were delivered to the WITP map.

The same website provides a chart of total factory deliveries of military airplanes as well, broken down by type and recipient: Link

Using that I calculated that roughly 20% of USAAF factory deliveries made it to the WitP map. Also of interest (to me at least) is that only 62.56% of army planes made it overseas at all.





I took the trainers out of the calculation since they're not included either in WitP or the first chart.

[ctangus]

The second chart also provides figures for factory deliveries to the Navy. Using that I (roughly) calculated how many planes went to the WitP map.

I did make one assumption that may prove incorrect. I assumed that the Navy got planes overseas at the same rate the Army did (62.56%). I'm not sure what the force allocation ratios were between the Atlantic & Pacific, so I calculated at 52.94% (from earlier in this thread), 67% and 80%.

This gives a range of 19000-29000 USN planes delivered to the theater.

It also gives a range of 44000-54000 total US planes delivered to theater.





I'd also like to note the variance is in Navy planes. Other than Andy Mac in the PzB game (an outlier as Andy says), I've never heard of an allied player having trouble with USN or Marine pools.

Jim calculated earlier in this thread 49405 US planes provided by WitP based on 8 months effective use. (I'd argue a longer time period should be used, but *shrug*). Seems to me allied production is fairly accurate, maybe even slightly overstated.

[Charles2222]

While it sounds good to have both sides production to depend on what they possess, it is easier to program just one side in that way. But if you chose just one side to do that way, it makes more sense to pick IJ. We know the historic result and that was landslide enough, though it took VERY long, that you can see how the allied production need not be dependant on how much land she grabs/keeps. IJ, OTOH, had quite a lot to gain by grabbing more, keeping more, and fighting better, which as anyone knows would affect your production capabilities. Sure, the Allies gain just as much as IJ from holding the same piece of land, the key here though is that with the way the war was structured IJ had all it's main success at the opening months, such that to give the allies the fair shake just makes the game even more lopsided than the historic war was, which is reason enough for a lot of people to not even have much interest in the PTO. The PTO, in my view, is one of the few theatres where if you're going to model production it makes a little more sense, gamewise, to model only the loser; unfair it technically may be. We've all seen how likely IJ players are to bail when the going gets tough or they think there's no way to achieve but less than draws in battle from that point forward.
 
The Russian front, for example, is a theatre that would be quite unfair to model the production for just one side (WIR did both sides), pretty much for the same reasons as I see it, because the success of the germans wasn't confined to just the first year and they had a much greater chance of achieving whatever the goal may have turned out to be (peace after Stalingrad or whatever) in the game than IJ had in the PTO. To further that view, we have seen lots of discussions on how the germans might had been able to achieve anything but total defeat there (or even outright victory) but nobody talks about how IJ could have won. For IJ it only boils down to whether they could inflict enough casualties to tire the USA of the war in some form. I still think it was a distinct possibility given the attitude about war that a lot of americans have, but unlike Vietnam and practically every war since, WWII didn't have a bunch of leftists to stir things up. We may had had more people wanting to nuke all of Japan as opposed letting them get off, but even then casualties over a million is nothing to sneeze at for what has been a very casualty sensitive country.

[spence]

The P-36A was engaged in combat on Dec 7th but very quickly relegated to training squadrons and courier duties following that date. It seems that IRL the P-36A and all US variants were replaced in ALL fighter squadrons by P-40s (of one type or another) or P-39s by March of 42.

In WitP the Allied player is stuck with them long after that date. Replacing them with
P-39s doesn't even seem to be an option at all and P-40 production can't begin to meet the need.

[mogami]

Hi, OK for about the 1000th time.  REMOVE ALL THE RD FACTORIES AT START AND SET THEM TO SIZE 0!!!!!! Now the Japanese player will not reach production numbers anywhere near those posted.  I wonder when I first mentioned human players should keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories.  (EARLY 2003!!!)
I am in late 1943 and my monthly production is less then half what everyone is worried about. (and it is more then enough)

well I looked and my production is less then 1/3 of the feared Japanese production. 1650 per month when all factories are producing (most of them are turned off because i don't need more in pool)

At start there are over 600 RD factories. When player changes them they are reduced a bit but still he can convert to over 500 extra ac per month early in war. To get this same 500 extra ac per month if you set them to 0 at start would cost 500,000 supply + the cost to repair them into actual production. Japan has 2,000,000 supply at start. Also it takes quite a bit longer to start at 0 and build to 100 actual produing factories. (compared to just converting a size 100 RD factory and repairing 1 per day.

[Nikademus]

I reduced RD by 90% in the 'a' version of my latest release. Be interesting to see what numbers of more advanced aircraft it produces under human guidance.

[mogami]

Hi, You don't have to be a wiz to understand that if you remove 600,000+ supply points worth of factories Japanese out put will be reduced.  RD is free because the AI does not know how to do production.  Start a game AI versus AI, run it for 3 years, stop it and check Japanese production. The factories that were size 0 on dec 7 1941 will be size 0 in 1944. The only way the AI will increase aircraft production and build newer models is by having the "RD" factories.  A human is fine if he leaves production alone or if he sets them to 0 and then builds to his hearts content.  I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. when the very first group stated they were working on a mod I said "make sure you get rid of RD factories"  we even talked about doing all the scenarios for human versus human only and I said "make sure you get rid of all the RD factories" 

2 years later I'm still reading "Japanese are over producing aircraft? why? fix Allied production to counter this" If you fix Japanese production the Allied production is fine.  (it's more then 3x what Japan can build) Japan does not have the supply to build that free 600,000 points worth of factories.  RD factories increase Japanese production by 33 percent at no cost. This free the supply to convert the normal smaller wrong type aircraft factories and expand them. The result is Japan more then doubles it's output in the first year.  And with the savings they increase engine production. (if you make them spend supply on aircraft factories they won't have it for engine expansion and without engines they can't expand aircraft and so on.

[Nikademus]

human is fine if he leaves production alone or if he sets them to 0 and then builds to his hearts content. I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.

Don't know....maybe because alot of complainers havn't played Japan. As previously mentioned, I left production alone in a recent PBEM and still managed to shut down my economy. The model is tighter than many would think. Gotta keep those imports coming. I pay more attention now despite my dislike of economics. (i prefer to command the things that make things go BOOM)

[mogami]

Hi, LOL I spend all my time trying to figure out where to build things and how to move things. I only fight when something is preventing me from building or moving or something is trying to stop my movement or break what I've built.
 
quite a few Japanese are always looking far away and I am looking for the shortest route.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, OK for about the 1000th time.  REMOVE ALL THE RD FACTORIES AT START AND SET THEM TO SIZE 0!!!!!! Now the Japanese player will not reach production numbers anywhere near those posted.  I wonder when I first mentioned human players should keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories.  (EARLY 2003!!!)
I am in late 1943 and my monthly production is less then half what everyone is worried about. (and it is more then enough)

You are undoubtedly correct...., but good luck getting players to go along. Far too many of them are into "massaging the system" to produce impossible results. But one of these days I want to play a game against you. Because you are one of the few potential opponants on the forumn I would feel playing my basically "historical" style of game against.

[ChezDaJez]

Hi, OK for about the 1000th time. REMOVE ALL THE RD FACTORIES AT START AND SET THEM TO SIZE 0!!!!!! Now the Japanese player will not reach production numbers anywhere near those posted. I wonder when I first mentioned human players should keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories. (EARLY 2003!!!)

I for one do not touch RD factories unless it is to convert them to production of an available aircraft (which in effect resets it to zero). And even then I do it very sparingly. My whole goal is a slow but steady expansion thats keep my HI pool as high as possible.

In my PBEM, it is June 42 and I doubt that I have expanded total aircraft production of certain models by more than 25 percent from the start. I turn off many factories that produce aircraft for which I have minimal need such as the Pete. I think I have one producing at the rate of about 10 a month. Some of those factories have been or will be converted to fighter production (I like to have a lot of smaller factories rather than 1 or 2 big ones for dispersal reasons). I haven't as yet touched bomber factories though I will need to later.

I generally like to attain a production rate of about 125% above my needs. I calculate my needs by determining how many squadrons are due to arrive in the next 6 months and by estimating losses for the same period. That way I slowly build a pool of replacements that will provide a small cushion in case the allies get uppity yet I won't have so many in the pool that I can't ever use them when a new type comes out. I also turn off factories when the pool has a decent level.

I think my logistics plan mirrors Mogami's pretty close though we have differing operational strategies.

Chez

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Hi, OK for about the 1000th time. REMOVE ALL THE RD FACTORIES AT START AND SET THEM TO SIZE 0!!!!!! Now the Japanese player will not reach production numbers anywhere near those posted. I wonder when I first mentioned human players should keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories. (EARLY 2003!!!)

I for one do not touch RD factories unless it is to convert them to production of an available aircraft

I'm not even reading the rest of your post because this right here is EXACTLY what Mogami is telling NOT TO DO!

[ChezDaJez]

The point was that I don't increase RD but I do convert many of them to other aircraft.

Chez

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

The point was that I don't increase RD but I do convert many of them to other aircraft.

Chez

Which is EXACTLY WHAT HE'S SAYING IS THE PROBLEM!!!! Those R&D factories shouldn't exist. The ONLY reason they exist in the game is for the AI. They were not intended to be available for the player to use to build more planes with!

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

  I wonder when I first mentioned human players should keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories.  (EARLY 2003!!!)

It/s a little difficult to grasp what Mog is saying [8|] but I think he is saying

keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories

This probably is intended to mean, don't increase them, don't change them to another a/c, and don't get dog hair on the screen.

His real solution is a mod that zeros their production maximum, but if you are playing stock or the usual mods people should
keep their furry dog like paws off the RD factories

At least I think that's what he said [:)]

[Nikademus]

Rather than shouting at each other, there's a ready made scenario available that mostly eliminates RD and consolidates mini factories in order to reduce the ability to expand RD and existing production at the same time. Some people i've talked too feel its unnecessary, others such some on this thread have stated, feel it is. I'd like to get some comparisons from players.

[dtravel]

  Nah, I'd rather yell at Chez.  [:D]

[mogami]

Hi, do not touch the RD facotries in stock scenarios. resetting them to available aircraft does not reset them to 0 (changing 100 RD factories results in 90 production factories-thats a free 90,000 points worth of production. If you want to use that factory modifiy the scenario and set them to 0. Now spend 90,000 supply to get 90 points of factory (that still need to spend supply and time to repair before they produce) (when you change RD you only need to spend the repair supply and repair time Japan gets 33 percent more production in 90 days at no cost. To build this actual production should cost 500,000+ supply and then still require the repair supply and repair time. Understand?

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

  Nah, I'd rather yell at Chez.  [:D]

ok.

never hurts to try. Pray, continue...

[mogami]

"I for one do not touch RD factories unless it is to convert them to production of an available aircraft (which in effect resets it to zero)."
 
Hi, when I read that I realized I had failed to make my point.