Tyronec vs BrianG. 12.03

[chaos45]

strategy wise.....the south doesn't offer much to the soviets in 1942...defend the mountains and Stalingrad is really it after you lose the river. You always want to be stronger in the north as the terrain makes it harder to retake from the Germans and its closer in hex count to Berlin.

In the south on the soviet side you really have to rely on terrain for defense in 1942 you just cant build enough CV to stop the Germans...you don't get the upgraded tank corps nor enough AP to build a lot of infantry corps until usually late 1942/early 1943. Fighting without a terrain edge in the south for the soviets is just losing units for no gain. As unlike historical limitations one rail line can supply every panzer division in the german army, so the Germans can always build enough CV to crush any soviet defense without lvl 3 forts and terrain bonuses. Not to mention that but the mobility of that many panzer divisions means pocketing entire soviet armies/fronts in open terrain is extremely easy...and even crossing rivers---with 40-50 MP and lots of divisions easy enough to do.

Its why once the soviets lose Leningrad/Moscow---the game IMO is about over for the soviets as you effectively cant defend the south in 1942. So you lose a lot of manpower in 41 from those cities...then lose more in 42 when you lose the south. Not to mention the men you lose trying to defend the south. You can keep playing but its really just to see how bad you are going to lose compared to history as the soviets. The Germans may never push you off the map but getting to berlin is going to take you a lot longer than history. Now let me caveat that with....Brian did pull a massive reversal on Sillyflower years ago....but aside from an outlier like that ya.....Gotta know when to pull back and use terrain to just defend and counterattack as the Germans in 1943.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I normally keep 1 Armor Division, 1 Moto Divisions, and 2 moto brigades up North and Central area at a minimum. This normally curtails Soviet nonsense in the area after you punch through their 1 hex deep defense and surround units.

[tyronec]

MUD only in the South.

North - relief effort is easier than expected as both attacks win.

Center. Soviet defences to the North of Tambov look a bit strong so switch the attack further South. Am going to get some Panzers cut off but they all did HQB last turn and I don't think the Soviets have much to seal them off with in the area.

Stalingrad. Win a couple of heavy attacks and make good progress. Have found where the Soviet strong Corps are, several of them around here. Am going to need to pocket Stalingrad soon as it blocks the rail line North and expect frontal attacks are not going to work.

Rostov. MUD so not much happens, hoping for a CLEAR next turn and can get the FBD to progress southwards.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

What victory conditions are you playing? Unless Brian is playing possum somehow he looks to be in deep trouble.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

What does the Caucasus look like further south? Any defense at all beside Kerch?

[tyronec]

We are playing standard scenario, so I need 290 VP and have 248 for Sudden Death.

No visible defences down South, there are several units around Kerch but don't see any elsewhere. Guess if I cut the rail line East of Stalingrad it will be slow for the Soviets to switch units in and out to the Caucasus.

Center. Not good from last turn, Soviets had more units reinforcing the area than I expected and pocket most of my Panzer Divisions. The weather forecast was wrong and MUD messes things up big time.

Stalingrad. All MUD. Still progress a little and surprisingly not much Fort in Stalingrad, may be able to assault it without a pocket which would speed up the rail conversion.

Rostov. More MUD. Clear Rostov and start the drive to the South. Read a great book last year, 'We will not go to Tuapse', that could be the same for me.

Heavy losses from Soviet attrition attacks this turn, a lot of my Northern units are barely dug in and the front is quite fluid. Was expecting it would cost the Soviets a lot to attack there but it seems not.

[redrum68]

Ouch on the mud in the Center around the panzers. Do you think he'll be able to make the isolated one surrender? If so would that be the first panzer division you've lost this game?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: redrum68

Ouch on the mud in the Center around the panzers. Do you think he'll be able to make the isolated one surrender? If so would that be the first panzer division you've lost this game?

Panzer division in Woods in mud with crap Soviets around the Division. Highly unlikely that will happen unless BrianG has something not shown on the photos provided.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

We are playing standard scenario, so I need 290 VP and have 248 for Sudden Death.

No visible defences down South, there are several units around Kerch but don't see any elsewhere. Guess if I cut the rail line East of Stalingrad it will be slow for the Soviets to switch units in and out to the Caucasus.

Yes, Stalingrad is the key to the Caucasus. With Stalingrad in hand you have the gambit of capturing all of the Caucasus. If successful could pay off in spades. If not, well I rather not go there. Will be watching on what you choose to do. Good luck to you.

[redrum68]

Panzer division in Woods in mud with crap Soviets around the Division. Highly unlikely that will happen unless BrianG has something not shown on the photos provided.

Ok, I wasn't sure if maybe enough soaking attacks could weaken down the panzer division.

[tyronec]

Yes, Stalingrad is the key to the Caucasus. With Stalingrad in hand you have the gambit of capturing all of the Caucasus. If successful could pay off in spades. If not, well I rather not go there. Will be watching on what you choose to do. Good luck to you.

I was not intending to go for the Caucasus, it would probably take at least half of my offensive power and then am not even sure you can get through the last few hexes against stacks of Infantry Corps. Sillyflower did it against Brian but I think he would know now better than me the best way to hang on. There are more population centers available in the Central area that should be easier to capture, so will go for those. More space to manoeuver around and less heavy terrain. Having said that have never played '42 before so I don't know.
Will have to check out how quickly they can ship units across the Caspian - looks like 2 divisions a turn.
Will send a couple of armies worth plus a Panzer Corps Southwards to take what I can. Then there is always the possibility of switching units by rail faster than the Soviets can.

I would hope my Panzer Division can hold out in the mud, he got nowhere against the Infantry division up North despite trying to attack it.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Yes, Stalingrad is the key to the Caucasus. With Stalingrad in hand you have the gambit of capturing all of the Caucasus. If successful could pay off in spades. If not, well I rather not go there. Will be watching on what you choose to do. Good luck to you.

I was not intending to go for the Caucasus, it would probably take at least half of my offensive power and then am not even sure you can get through the last few hexes against stacks of Infantry Corps. Sillyflower did it against Brian but I think he would know now better than me the best way to hang on. There are more population centers available in the Central area that should be easier to capture, so will go for those. More space to manoeuver around and less heavy terrain. Having said that have never played '42 before so I don't know.
Will have to check out how quickly they can ship units across the Caspian - looks like 2 divisions a turn.
Will send a couple of armies worth plus a Panzer Corps Southwards to take what I can. Then there is always the possibility of switching units by rail faster than the Soviets can.

I would hope my Panzer Division can hold out in the mud, he got nowhere against the Infantry division up North despite trying to attack it.

When I say Stalingrad is the key I am referring to cutting the rail off which I am sure most understand but wanted to make sure.

You are going to be gifted a large part of the Caucasus. The Soviets are just too weak to put much down there. If the Soviet does put units in the Caucasus then your main operation area will benefit. Thus you aren't going to need an over abundance of German units. Having said that I would also be reluctant to pursue the Caucasus gambit because of one reason. That reason is the defense of urban cities with high fort levels now is a little bit on the "insane" side to take from a determined defense player in 12.5. Otherwise to me the benefits of having the whole Caucasus under control is a huge win.

Destroying Pop centers is nice as always and is a good long term strategy. But speed killing Soviet Corps that show up is a much better one for 42 I go out of my way to make them POW's. But you know all of these things and you are an extremely capable player.

[eskuche]

I see the 6 Army is steering well clear of Stalingrad

[chaos45]

As weak as the Soviets are you might be able to get away with the Italians/Romanians/Hungarians and some german infantry pushing them into the mountains.

[tyronec]

As weak as the Soviets are you might be able to get away with the Italians/Romanians/Hungarians and some german infantry pushing them into the mountains.

Yes, was thinking 1 German, 1 Romanian and 1 Italian armies plus a Panzer Corps but should have a better idea of what the Soviets are going to defend with in a few turns.

[tyronec]

MUD in North and South which covers all the combat areas.

PG2 continues to clear Soviet Brigades out of the way. The Voronezh garrison disappeared during the Soviet turn.
Am moving a Panzer Corps towards Moscow, the bulk of the Soviet strength is still up North and don't want to lose any cities.

Continued progress around Stalingrad. Get across the Don South of the city and continue to clear weak units to the north. Even if I don't take the second Stalingrad hex next turn can still progress rail conversion past it. Just need a CLEAR and things could really open up here, the Soviets are on the Don in strength but can get past them to the East. Also the isolated lead Panzer from PG2 is breaking up that defence line.

Caucausus - have got a few mobile units into the Europe zone for next turn so should see what the Soviets are up to next turn.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

As weak as the Soviets are you might be able to get away with the Italians/Romanians/Hungarians and some german infantry pushing them into the mountains.

Yes, was thinking 1 German, 1 Romanian and 1 Italian armies plus a Panzer Corps but should have a better idea of what the Soviets are going to defend with in a few turns.

As you know, I went for the 'Caucasus 1st then S'grad' approach.The main difficulty I had taking the Caucasus was not the defences per se, but a combo of Brian's skillful insertions (mainly using weak kamikaze tank xxxs) to cut the supply lines and he seemed to get lucky with partisans which so often cut the lines he could not otherwise reach.

I agree with Chaos that Brian that Brian is unlikely to have the troops to stop a strong thrust but you would need to be able to manage the problems better than I did until the later stages of my O. However, S'grad first will probably make it easier for you in the Caucasus as it looks like you will have time for both.

[chaos45]

Its not even summer 1942 yet and the Germans already have Stalingrad....Brian is in for a very rough remainder of 1942.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: tyronec

As weak as the Soviets are you might be able to get away with the Italians/Romanians/Hungarians and some german infantry pushing them into the mountains.

Yes, was thinking 1 German, 1 Romanian and 1 Italian armies plus a Panzer Corps but should have a better idea of what the Soviets are going to defend with in a few turns.

As you know, I went for the 'Caucasus 1st then S'grad' approach.The main difficulty I had taking the Caucasus was not the defences per se, but a combo of Brian's skillful insertions (mainly using weak kamikaze tank xxxs) to cut the supply lines and he seemed to get lucky with partisans which so often cut the lines he could not otherwise reach.

I agree with Chaos that Brian that Brian is unlikely to have the troops to stop a strong thrust but you would need to be able to manage the problems better than I did until the later stages of my O. However, S'grad first will probably make it easier for you in the Caucasus as it looks like you will have time for both.

Tyronec has some hexes NW of Stalingrad that BrianG can flood across based on current snapshots. Along with some Regiments that can be pushed aside on the front line even behind major rivers. (Regiments will retreat over hold when attacked) If Tyronec isn't careful he could end up with a fiasco behind his Stalingrad troops like you had in the Caucasus because we all know BrianG loves to FLOOD in.

Stalingrad is always the key to the Caucasus. Just need to make sure the rail going South to the Caucasus is also cut at the same time behind Stalingrad, that is the first key. Once that is done the Germans just need to rush to Baku where the rail to the West Caucasus is cut as the 2nd key. Once that is done the rest of the West Caucasus will wilt on the vine as the Germans assualt Baku. With the current state of the Soviets, and what I see on the snapshots provided, I would say this has a very good chance of success with the forces involved barring any outlier if Tyronec pursues this. Based on what I see I give it a 91.5% chance of working at current snapshots. Will update my prediction when getting closer to Baku, BrianG could always throw in those outliers ;-P

[joelmar]

ORIGINAL: Tyronec
Yes, was thinking 1 German, 1 Romanian and 1 Italian armies plus a Panzer Corps but should have a better idea of what the Soviets are going to defend with in a few turns.

Get all your mountain divisions in one German army, you will need each one of those in the Georgian mountains
Get your rumanian cavalry together.
Get most of your FBD's in Caucasus to go into the Georgian valleys through Sukhumi

panzers can be useful for a while, but they will soon become superfluous. Cavalry is good enough to flip hexes

Those are the keys