Working title: Zen and the Art of Japanese Aircraft Production

[brisd]

Mogami or anyone else, can you give me an example as far as restoring KB back to full strength after its raid on Pearl Harbor. If you bring it all the way back to Japan, do you just go into Hiroshima for example and dock the task force, turn on replacements and take from the pool? Or do you first disband some home defense units so those pilots go into the pool first? I am having a hard time visualizing the process. I worry that moving the fighter and bomber units onto land, disbanding the appropriate sacrificial air units, will result in oversized carrier air units? Any ideas? Sorry for being so dense. [&:]

[mogami]

Hi, Pilots from disbanded groups do not go into the pool. They go into the unit you disband them into. If there are enough trained pilots in the pool you do not need to disband a group to restore a group you just select receive replacements.

However at the start in order to get groups into the system I disband some of the smaller groups. (On turn 1 I set "do not receive replacements for every IJN group) Then using the
list all land group icon at the top of the screen I bring down the list of airgroups. I filter them one type at a time looking for under strength groups. I then move the smaller groups to where they can disband without making any group over strength. Also if you move a group that has excess AC and these excess AC are damaged or in reserve they remain behind. Then you just disband this partial unit into another unit. (but here you say "no" when asked if you want the group to return since you don't want a bunch of partial units returning and confusing yourself and the progam) You only say yes if the group disbanding is a normal group or one of the sub group you create when you divide a group (A,B, or C)

The CV after PH really only need fighter replacements since most of the bomber groups (Kate and Val) begin over sized.

Also right at the start there are a number of 9xAC A5M groups. Save you A6M2 production and upgrade these to A6M2 and use them to bring other groups (possibliy CV) up in size. Then you have many CHutai sized groups that will be returning and they make the best training groups. (Since 9 fighters will not have much impact on the combat past May 42)

[brisd]

Thanks for the info, I understand much more but still fuzzy. Guess only way is to try it out and experiment. That's what the initial games are for, learning the system. [8D]

[mogami]

Hi, A few more points.
To add pilots to a CV group by the disband method you need to move the CV group to the land base. (I'll use Tokyo here for the example)

Suppose CV Kaka's A6M2 group has a total of 15 pilots and aircraft. There are fewer then 15 pilots in the IJN pool so I don't want to use "receive replacement as I will be given untrained pilots.) At Toyko airfield I have a Daitai of 27 AC with completly trained (pre war pilots) I divide the Daitai and get 3x9AC and pilot sub groups A/B/C. I move the CV group to airfield and then I disband group C (or A or B) into the CV group now it is at full strength (since 24 is it's max size) then that same turn I send the CV group back to the CV.

Now never move a CV group to land unless all the ac are ready or you will leave behind on the CV a sub group and sub groups groups on CV are a major pain in hte ass to fix. So always wait for all AC to repair. If the group has AC in reserve but when these are repaired the group will still be undersize wait for the reserve AC to move to ready status before doing the disband on land. Also make sure you use "disband"
"Withdraw" will move the AC to the target group but not the pilots. The pilots remain with the group (when it returns it will have been issued new AC but the pilots will be the ones that withdrew


Also from my example above suppose the group only required 7 pilots and AC but I disband 9 into the group. After I return it to the CV 2 of the AC will go into reserve. (during the next turn resolution) This is fine as long as the total AC onboard the CV does not exceed it's capacity by more then 10 percent. A CV like Kaga can hold 72 AC so it can carry 77 total. (10 percent of 72=7.2 rounded down to 7) If it loads 78 or more it loses flight ops (and that could be bad)
There are times when you might overload a CV by design. but never a fleet CV going out to conduct operations. (Suppose you wished to ferry a group but the group exceeded capacity. Since you are not going to be flying while at sea you don't worry about overloading the CV. Both loading and unloading occur in port so there is no problem. This is mostly CVE but there is still a place for a CV to be used as a ferry but it would not be considered standard practice.



One operational trick that might be considered (both sides can do this)
I have a major operation in mind involving my fleet carriers. I know the combat is going to be heavy and I want to insure my CV can outlast the enemy. I have a base or am going to capture a base near to the action. I overload my CV and move them down to the base. (in a sense I bring my replacement pilots with me) Now when I move my CV to this base to refuel I can also take replacement pilots. (move the group ashore, disband the replacement group move back to the CV and I'm ready to put to sea again. The enemy air groups have been depleted in the first round and I am returning much sooner then if I had to relie on both my pool and having 20k supply at the base. Just make sure the overloaded CV do not have to fly. In the case of KB I split groups (Daitai form 9xAC groups and among the 6 CV I place my 6 replacement groups. (each CV gets 1 group of iether Zero,Val,Kate) If my normal groups are overloaded up to max flyable capacity so much the better.

[TheElf]

Wow! Had I known this debate was going on over here I'd have posted this earlier. This is my idea I just posted to the Wish list. It is my suggestion for making the Mogami Method (copyright 2004) official...

Pilot Training Realism Setting (Toggle-able)

Allow for the Axis player to designate 1 squadron per type (Divebomber, Fighter, Level Bomber), per Service (Army, Navy) as a "Training Squadron". Figure a total of 6. 1 ea. per type, per service. Could actually include recon and tansport I suppose

When the overall default Pilot pool is exhausted untrained pilots (20's, 30's, 40's) enter the game in the desgnated Training Sqdn's (Replacements Accepted) rather than frontline units to continue training until they either:

a. Meet a player-determined level/standard of training (1941 Navy standard or 1942 Army Standard etc.)

or

b. They are recruited by the player at their current level of training, however inadequate, to fill for attrition in the fleet.

There would be no limit to the number of pilots in these training squadrons, but if you never moved them on to from line units eventually you would be running at a defecit where it counted

Toggling this switch at the beginnig of the game would turn all Air units to "Do Not Accept Replacement". Selecting each unit as a designated Training Sqdn would turn on "Accept Untrained Pilots" whereby any pilot that comes from the pool untrained goes to the Training squadrons and Trained pilots remain in the pool for distribution to the Fleet.

Before "Axis Fanboy!" and "you are ruining history!" are blurted out, consider this. Any Axis player worth his salt will be doing this anyway using the Mogami Method (Copyright 2004) of on map training. Why not help us expedite our PBEM turns by making it official giving us some relief? Any Allied purist soput there can toggle it off as a PBEM setting anyway.

[TheElf]

I also asked for this...

A Send Disbanded pilots to the Pool Option

When useless units (such as Rufe Squadrons, Babs squadrons), which are either out of dead-end (non-upgradable) aircraft or considered too useless to use, allow them to be disbanded permantently.

But what happens to the pilots? In UV and I assume it is the same in WitP they stay with the disbanded squadron doomed in Purgatory to the Reinforcement Screen or are absorbed by a like unit in the same hex.

Please allow us to Send those experienced/trained pilots to the pool to be distributed to more useful units. Army pilots go to the Army pool, Navy go to the Navy pool.

This option would work just like the "Return to Tokyo" switch in UV for ships.

[Mr.Frag]

Please allow us to Send those experienced/trained pilots to the pool to be distributed to more useful units. Army pilots go to the Army pool, Navy go to the Navy pool.

You can't send them to the pool. The pool doesn't really exist. It is a simple number and skill average.

By sticking *real* pilots into the pool, the pool now has to be tracked pilots.

This is the reason that once a pilot is borne (ie: enters play in an airgroup somewhere), it has to always be part of a group.

Disbanding moves the pilot to a different group. Withdrawl keeps the pilot in the existing group. The pilot always exists.

The pool is different. It doesn't actually have pilots. It *generates* a pilot based on the pool's skill level when one is required.

The whole thing would have been much easier had 2BY3 simply gotten rid of pilots completely but they enjoy the pain of having to code nightmares. [:D]

Mogami fought for and got the Disband option with the group coming back. It is not perfect, but it does give you a viable solution to the problem and also makes you feel the pain that Japan felt trying to keep functional aircraft and skilled pilots in the same place.

[brisd]

Thanks again Mogami for the detailed example, which is EXACTLY what I needed. Don't ever move again without out permission, ok? [;)]

[TheElf]

What about removing the restriction on disbanding pilots into a like unit (ie Rufe to Rufe) If I put my Rufe pilots into an A6M2 unit (same Airplane essentially) that would have the same effect as my request above.

Make Bomber unit capable of disbanding into other Bomber units, Fighter units disbanding into other fighter units, Dive-bombers units...you get the idea, regardless of the model of aircraft. In my opinion a fighter, is a fighter, is a fighter. Where do the planes go? To the pool of course. The disbanded unit does not return

No comment on my Idea for official training squadrons Frag?

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Please allow us to Send those experienced/trained pilots to the pool to be distributed to more useful units. Army pilots go to the Army pool, Navy go to the Navy pool.

You can't send them to the pool. The pool doesn't really exist. It is a simple number and skill average.

By sticking *real* pilots into the pool, the pool now has to be tracked pilots.

This is the reason that once a pilot is borne (ie: enters play in an airgroup somewhere), it has to always be part of a group.

Disbanding moves the pilot to a different group. Withdrawl keeps the pilot in the existing group. The pilot always exists.

The pool is different. It doesn't actually have pilots. It *generates* a pilot based on the pool's skill level when one is required.

The whole thing would have been much easier had 2BY3 simply gotten rid of pilots completely but they enjoy the pain of having to code nightmares. [:D]

Mogami fought for and got the Disband option with the group coming back. It is not perfect, but it does give you a viable solution to the problem and also makes you feel the pain that Japan felt trying to keep functional aircraft and skilled pilots in the same place.

If you are thinking inside the box, this is true. If you are thinking outside the box, it is a simple matter to return the pilots name to the free list and add 1 to the pool for each aircraft. The pilot can come back at the yearly level. Personally, I would rather have 84 more pilots in my pool than 84 pilots in Ki-36's and A6M2-N's. Both are complete wastes of pilots and Heavy industry.

[Goufy]

Two thoughts:

- It is a pity that your "Training schools" take three months of holidays before starting work on a other group!

- Mogami, by your system, after some time, the transport and recon unit always draw from a empty pool directly, so they always have half-skill pilot. Are you not sacrifying them? don't you need your transport a little bit, or it doesn't have a big impact on them?

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

What about removing the restriction on disbanding pilots into a like unit (ie Rufe to Rufe) If I put my Rufe pilots into an A6M2 unit (same Airplane essentially) that would have the same effect as my request above.

Make Bomber unit capable of disbanding into other Bomber units, Fighter units disbanding into other fighter units, Dive-bombers units...you get the idea, regardless of the model of aircraft. In my opinion a fighter, is a fighter, is a fighter. Where do the planes go? To the pool of course. The disbanded unit does not return

No comment on my Idea for official training squadrons Frag?

This would do nothing for the Rufe, since it is in a class by itself (Float fighter). I suppose they could consider the fighters, float fighters, and fighter bombers in the same category.

[DrewMatrix]

I suppose they could consider the fighters, float fighters, and fighter bombers in the same category.

Or have you drop 10 exp if you change class of A/C (or even model. maybe 5 for model. So you were exp 56 on a P-26 . . .)

[TheElf]

I would consider it a fighter for the purposes of this system. All it is is an A6M2 on floats

[TheElf]

I think a delay would be more appropriate fo upgrades. In my other post on the wish list concerning upgrade paths I suggested a 1 day delay per pilot in the group. 9 pilots=9 day delay. 27 pilots=27day delay. This delay would simulate the experienced pilots getting back up to speed if you will on the new model. Hence no drop in EXP when they become active

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: Goufy

Two thoughts:

- It is a pity that your "Training schools" take three months of holidays before starting work on a other group!

- Mogami, by your system, after some time, the transport and recon unit always draw from a empty pool directly, so they always have half-skill pilot. Are you not sacrifying them? don't you need your transport a little bit, or it doesn't have a big impact on them?

Hi, No at start I disband a few transport groups so I have a training group for them as well. There are only 2 or 3 IJN transport groups at start. The IJA pool has enough pilots at start to use to fill up groups and replace combat loss. I only disband Chutai at start in order to have trainging groups. The IJN on the other hand will completly drain the pool if you allow all the existing groups to draw from it at start. This is why for the IJN I do not use the pool. (The pool does get used. When a 27 AC Daitai of A6M2 loses a pilot I replace him from the pool, The Betty/Nell groups are all over size at start so they do not really require replacements for a while. Also I use the pool to fill out the CVL (but I still combine the Cluade group at Palau with the CVL group).

Because it takes 3 months for the groups to return I disband what I can as soon as I can in order to have them on map as soon as I can. I fight the battles in the SRA with what I start with. I am trying to be ready to replace pilots lost after May 1942 not replace pilots I lose in Dec 1941. (replacing these pilots allows me to have the groups I will need after May)

I try to plan as far in advance as I can. I cannot predict loses for May 1942 but I can predict what I can lose and still replace. This allows me to define what operations I will plan. By knowing what I can replace I can interploite what I can use.

Right from the start I define what "TheElf" Calls "Offical" groups. Only my groups size is detirmined by me by those I select to disband. I decide the size of my training program by the number and type of units I designate as replacement groups and those I will use in combat. (Generally I want 1 replacement Group for every 3 combat groups but more is better. But you must reserve at least 1 to 3 1 for 1 is super.

Understand 1 for 1 does not cut your force in half. Bases can only hold and support so many groups. 1 for 1 just means it will take the enemy 3 times as long to reduce my combat group to where it has lost combat effectivness. (1 reserve group breaks down into 3 replacement groups. Every time the combat group is reduced to where it requires around 9 pilots and aircraft it is restored. This is better then trying to have a fresh full strength unit to rotate in whie the 2/3 size units pulls out. It is much better then restoring the number of pilots by adding untrained replacements because along with the size I maintain the quality.

[Caltone]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng
This would do nothing for the Rufe, since it is in a class by itself (Float fighter). I suppose they could consider the fighters, float fighters, and fighter bombers in the same category.

Wasn't the Rufe a Zero's airframe on floats?

[Oznoyng]

Yes, however, the idea that you can simply transfer directly from a Rufe to an Zero is inaccurate. If a Rufe were a Zero, I would not want to get rid of them. That implies that the pilots flying them have an adjustment to make. It might be a smaller one than for some changes, but there a lot of things that are different. The performance envelope of a plane with the added weight of drag inducing floats and a Zero is significant. The differences between landing on water and on land, etc. all would make a "simple" transition not so simple.

[mogami]

Hi, Yes a Rufe is a Zero on floats. However the game thinks it is a entirely new beast. (I like my Rufe groups and would never lose them by disbanding)

The main reason the game has the system I use is because it requires no new code or routines. It could be put in place simply by allowing a group to return after it was disbanded.

There is a post where I was answering Brady where I posted what the actual per month output of trained pilots already in WITP was. (since all new groups arrive with trained pilots they are in addation to the monthy pilots added to the pool)

On map training augments Japanese traning it does not replace it. The main reason for using it would be to avoid "sprinkling" your groups with untrained pilots. First the IJN in 41 early 42 and then the IJA. If the untrained pilots do not bother you or if you feel that is more historic then you don't have to bother yourself worring about it. Myself I don't believe Japan actually ever sent a person to a combat group that had not finished the then *(for that period of the war) pilot training. Japanese pilot training suffered from a want of fuel to give pilots training hours with not because they didn't care. When they sent a 40 to replace the 80 that had been lost they were sending the best they had left on the ranch.

When they commited entire groups of 40's they were the best trained Japan could produce.
At no time did they ever send "untrained" pilots to combat groups. Late in the war of course they were using "poorly" trained pilots.
Japan in WITP can encounter the same handicap. If there is no supply to fly then you cannot fly to train. You may someday be forced into using "poorly" trained pilots. Myself, I cannot force myself into sending untrained pilots to combat groups in 1941 early 1942.
I cannot conceive of having to use "poorly" trained pilots before 1945.

The entire purpose and aim of going through all the work and trouble here is to preserve the quality of the airforces.

When a person embarks on a game of WITP as Japan he is attempting to alter history. He wants to do better. Better starts right here. Try as you might to plan operations that produce results granting better positions or conditions when compared to history you will find nothing that does this is a more visable way then preserving your pilot corps. This impacts your operations. Having twice the number of groups but at half the quality would not yield anything other then a longer casualty list. If you want to win the game as Japan here is where you begin. Plan for it. Take the time to manage it. Make it your pet area of expertease. No would be Yamamoto can out do you with tricky operations that relie on untrained pilots. The lazy Japanese player does not deserve to win. Playing Japan has to require more effort then playing the Allies or something is really wrong with the game. Even best efforts of the Japanese players should be difficult.

It is not a case of trying to avoid the outcome of single battles here and there. You have to overhaul the entire conduct of the war. A battle result is produced by the differences between opposing forces. The side that sends more pluses then minus wins. Quality-Quanity-Surprise-Supply-Leadership are all things that you control. Control them better then the enemy. Start at the beginning. Get used to putting in more effort then the enemy. Stop waste.

OK I'll get off the soap box. (But I'll keep it nearby)

[Mr.Frag]

If you are thinking inside the box, this is true. If you are thinking outside the box, it is a simple matter to return the pilots name to the free list and add 1 to the pool for each aircraft.

Care to tell me what thinking has to do with production code?

The code is the code is the code. Thinking does not make it different. Recoding makes it different. If you are going down the recoding path, then we go full circle back to inventing a pilot training system where the player can divert fuel and resources to fund his pilot training and get rid of the pool and country level completely.

One of the problems I have with the current system even including Mogami's work around is it makes no difference if Japan happens to be winning the war, they still get worse pilots year after year.

If I through good playing manage to not strip my pilots, why should I take a hit on EXP? I'm not kicking my pilots out of school early to fill in my losses so I should *not* see a skill drop.

The basic problem is that my way *requires* a fair chunk of code work to be done. That work has to come after everything else is fixed *if* it ever comes. Mogami's "disband w/Reform" to steal pilots option was a pretty simple thing to code and made it in. It doesn't resolve the decreasing pilot skill year after year penalty.