The core problem with WitE+

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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chuckfourth
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

Hi Aurelian
You said
And yet, they were used when needed as an anti tank weapons, being that they could be and were used in a direct fire role.

There are exceptions to every rule they were of course used in the direct fire role, but in-game they are -only- used in the direct fire role.
because.
when they fire the opposing artillery or any other long range weapon can fire back at them. wrong.
In reality they would be out of sight and probably range.
ie In reality they can usually lay there barrage unimpeded.
The game models indirect fire weapons as direct fire weapons.
The game is modelling the exception (line of sight) not the rule (indirect).

Best Regards Chuck.

Best Regards Chuck
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

Hi Morvael
Have you read what I wrote at
tm.asp?m=3428981

What do you think?

Best Regards Chuck.
Best Regards Chuck
chuckfourth
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RE: fixes

Post by chuckfourth »

Hi Pelton.
My concern is that the combat engine in WITE2 will be very similar to what we have now and wont incorporate any of the suggestions I or MechFo and others have suggested, for me that makes the game (WITE2 and WITW) unplayable and I want to play.
My challenge to one and all is to watch a high resolution battle and think about the circumstances required for that particular result to occur. From my experience it does not take long to see a result that really isn't possible at that time or is tactically extremely naive
Best Regards Chuck.
Best Regards Chuck
Gabriel B.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Gabriel B. »

ORIGINAL: chuckles

Hi gradenko_2000

You said
All weapons with enough reach to participate in the Long-range phase (mostly artillery) all take turns firing at each other (hence artillery killing artillery) and at non-participating targets (hence artillery killing tanks).

The Artillery don't fire at each other the attacking artillery lays a barrage on the defending infantries positions. The attacking Artillery lays a barrage on the advancing infantry. They are to busy doing this (there jobs) to fire at each other.
Also it is unlikely that the opposing batteries are within range of each other.
Because the artillery is wrongly modelled as a direct fire weapon It participates in tank killing from the engagements beginning when in reality it cant see any tanks. It shouldn't be killing any tanks until the attacker has rolled right over the defending division and can actually see the defending artillery.
The chance of indirect fire hitting a moving tank is about .00something.

best Regards Chuck.



You an expert?

Counterbattery fire was handled by the germans using the medium batalion at divisional level and the gun batalion at corps level .

Corps arty to include both soviet and german outranges divisional arty by 8 km or more , you could place your divisional arty so back that it only covers the foward edge of defense but still be targeted by corps CB. 8 km is outside the range of direct fire weapons
In fact anyting above 5 km calls for indirect fire due to earths curvature . It also outside the range of medium/heavy infantry mortars .



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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by carlkay58 »

The Soviet artillery doctrine from WWII (and is still part of their current doctrine) is artillery in the front lines. The Soviets did not have the forward observers and radios that make indirect fire effective. The artillery was executed on a pre-planned task list with two signals possible from the front lines by flares: stop and start. The artillery at the regimental level and below were front line units. They operated mostly over open sights. They took heavy losses but also dished out over 60% of the losses caused by the Soviet artillery (that number comes from the Soviet Army's evaluation of WWII tactics done in the 50s and 60s). It was so effective that their current doctrine has a battery of 6 152mm SP Howitzers combining with a tank platoon and a mechanized infantry company as the leading elements right behind their recon units.

The Axis and Western Allies relied on the indirect fire tactics more, with the Americans developing the TOT (time on target) concept utilizing up to 120 tubes of various artillery types at the same time. Many of the US WWII infantry company commanders felt like their job was to protect the forward observers so that the artillery was accurately used to destroy the enemy forces.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Flaviusx »

The thing that drives me slightly crazy about TOAW is that it's kind of difficult to tell when your turn is going to end. I wish this were easier to predict and plan for.

But it's a good engine and I look forward to a TOAW IV, which is supposedly in the works. A graphics overhaul would do wonders here.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Wuffer »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The thing that drives me slightly crazy about TOAW is that it's kind of difficult to tell when your turn is going to end. I wish this were easier to predict and plan for.

But it's a good engine and I look forward to a TOAW IV, which is supposedly in the works. A graphics overhaul would do wonders here.



+ 1

Just one thing to add: Please, all you developers, please have once more a closer look at TOAW - many of the problems here had been adjusted by Norm Koger around 15 years ago :-))

Don't go for the new, insane(?) big scenarios, I would advocate Koger's original 'Korea' for example.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The thing that drives me slightly crazy about TOAW is that it's kind of difficult to tell when your turn is going to end. I wish this were easier to predict and plan for.

But it's a good engine and I look forward to a TOAW IV, which is supposedly in the works. A graphics overhaul would do wonders here.

Isn't that where the realism comes in as for most games, including WiTE, you can see just how far your units can go, taking into account terrain and weather factors, effects that actual commanders can only guess at. The realism comes with setting a plan that can cope with some unpredictability.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by SigUp »

I would be content with a simple MP deduction for entering hexes in which battles were fought. For me personally this combat rounds system of TOAW would take just too much time for a game with lots of units. Nothing against the system in smaller scenarios though.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Flaviusx »

Rasputitsa, yes, but the process could be more transparent in TOAW and more easily controlled. I also think the engine tends to exaggerate the amount of time it takes to undertake certain activities.

It's stickier than I like. Maybe it needs more granularity, too. Consider doubling the number of possible subimpulses to create the possibility of greater differentiation between types of combats.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Peltonx »

I have looked over some of the other games out there that are named on this thread.

None really look that great or are tring to tackle WW2 in Europe as 2by3 is.

WiF's simply is going to be hard to do HvH in real time, because of phase design.

Operational games tend to be easy to design as both players are in a box.

WitE/WitW+++ to WiE is a sandbox.

But yet on a grand scale no one is tring to do BOTH in a single game.

As with WitP things will get better and better in the long run.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

As with WitP things will get better and better in the long run.

I hope so, the AE forum is still buzzing despite the game being 4 years old or so and now I couldn't resist and bought the game. The engine had enough development time from Uncommon Valor onwards. As for the state of this series, well you know more than us due to being a beta tester. I hope WITW and then WITE2 will be a great game, but a severe combat engine remodeling in addition to a couple of other pressing issues need to be corrected.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: Pelton

As with WitP things will get better and better in the long run.

I hope so, the AE forum is still buzzing despite the game being 4 years old or so and now I couldn't resist and bought the game. The engine had enough development time from Uncommon Valor onwards. As for the state of this series, well you know more than us due to being a beta tester. I hope WITW and then WITE2 will be a great game, but a severe combat engine remodeling in addition to a couple of other pressing issues need to be corrected.

I love history.

2by3 has a history.

Each game they produce gets better with time.

WitE has gotten better and better over time.

Once .14 is public all things being equal for the first time in 3 yrs we finally have a big fat ? when players play.

GHC fuel exploits have been nerfed and SHC I win buttons(mostly bugs+1v1=2v1) have been nerfed.

We all can injoy the game knowing bugs and exploits will not be the desiding factor finally.

Sure the engine needs to be tweaked in allot of areas, but as 2by3's history shows this will happen.
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Aurelian
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: chuckles

Hi Aurelian
You said
And yet, they were used when needed as an anti tank weapons, being that they could be and were used in a direct fire role.

There are exceptions to every rule they were of course used in the direct fire role, but in-game they are -only- used in the direct fire role.
because.

http://www.wio.ru/galgrnd/atg.htm

Note the 122mm M-30 howitzer in a direct fire role.

As noted above the Russian doctrine was artillery in the front lines. Direct fire role.

http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=1001

The Red Army placed much greater emphasis on using the artillery in a direct fire role (as opposed to shelling an out of sight target indirectly) than other armies of the time. Soviet doctrine encouraged gunners to drag their weapons forward and blast the enemy over open sights

Direct fire was less wasteful of ammunition than indirect shelling which was considered an inefficient way of destroying the enemy. The Soviet Union experienced severe ammunition shortages for its artillery early in the war. This was because the ammunition factories were mostly positioned further west than the gun factories.

Also, the Red Army was always short of radios and this made it difficulty to arrange artillery fire at short notice. The Red Army mainly relied on field telephones to communicate, and telephone lines were cumbersome to lay and vulnerable to being severed by enemy fire.

Finally, the educational standards of the Red Army were, on average, lower than most other armies of the time. This, combined with the difficulty of providing training to such a large army, meant that it was difficult to train enough observers for the artillery army.

It doesn't matter if they were division or higher level guns or not. Direct fire was the doctrine.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Rasputitsa, yes, but the process could be more transparent in TOAW and more easily controlled. I also think the engine tends to exaggerate the amount of time it takes to undertake certain activities.

It's stickier than I like. Maybe it needs more granularity, too. Consider doubling the number of possible subimpulses to create the possibility of greater differentiation between types of combats.

I am not saying TOAW is the way to go, the industry should be able to move on beyond that, but supporting the principle of a more realistic representation of movement and combat, with a reasonable helping of unpredictability. Even WIR had the possibility of movement and combat not taking place as plotted, if the OP calculation was wrong. Even had the option to have some friendly HQ operating under AI, with set objectives, OK primitive and unreliable, but it added some unpredictability, instead of hundreds of units moving directly to your command, which never happened in reality.

Some of the earlier games had features that potentially added to the realism, even if the level of development did not deliver fully. The John Tiller games, with the ability to control through lower level commanders, more in keeping with the way a command system really works. Ideal for something as large as the Eastern Front, but gradually lost from GGs games. I know the endless discussion of, the AI is broken, not doing what I want, but that is what happens in war.

Controlling through subordinate AI operated HQ would be more realistic, replicate command and control capabilities of each side and reduce the workload in complex games. It could always be subject to options and preferences for those who want to micro-manage and choose a greater level of player control.

I knew WiTE was not going this way, long before it was issued, but bought it anyway, but having never gone beyond the scenarios it has limited appeal. I don't expect a change of course now.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Shiva the Destroyer »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I have looked over some of the other games out there that are named on this thread.

None really look that great or are tring to tackle WW2 in Europe as 2by3 is.

WiF's simply is going to be hard to do HvH in real time, because of phase design.

Operational games tend to be easy to design as both players are in a box.

WitE/WitW+++ to WiE is a sandbox.

But yet on a grand scale no one is tring to do BOTH in a single game.

As with WitP things will get better and better in the long run.


Can't post a link due to low number of posts but check out wargamer.com re:Schwerpunkt games and you'll find someone is working on BOTH in a single WIE game!

edit1> scale = 7.5 miles per hex center to center

edit2> Incidentally, though it's getting rather dated, Decision Games has had a PC adaptation of SSI's board game version of WIE for many years.

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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Michael T »

Can't post a link due to low number of posts but check out wargamer.com re:Schwerpunkt games and you'll find someone is working on BOTH in a single WIE game!

+1

If your in to strategy rather than counting tanks this might be the one for you. I have high hopes for it. Ron's games have been improving with every release. I am playing AGW right now and its a blast of fun.
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Gray Lensman
ORIGINAL: Pelton

I have looked over some of the other games out there that are named on this thread.

None really look that great or are tring to tackle WW2 in Europe as 2by3 is.

WiF's simply is going to be hard to do HvH in real time, because of phase design.

Operational games tend to be easy to design as both players are in a box.

WitE/WitW+++ to WiE is a sandbox.

But yet on a grand scale no one is tring to do BOTH in a single game.

As with WitP things will get better and better in the long run.


Can't post a link due to low number of posts but check out wargamer.com re:Schwerpunkt games and you'll find someone is working on BOTH in a single WIE game!

edit1> scale = 7.5 miles per hex center to center

edit2> Incidentally, though it's getting rather dated, Decision Games has had a PC adaptation of SSI's board game version of WIE for many years.


http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=83493

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=508684

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=584761
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The Soviet artillery doctrine from WWII (and is still part of their current doctrine) is artillery in the front lines. The Soviets did not have the forward observers and radios that make indirect fire effective. The artillery was executed on a pre-planned task list with two signals possible from the front lines by flares: stop and start. The artillery at the regimental level and below were front line units. They operated mostly over open sights. They took heavy losses but also dished out over 60% of the losses caused by the Soviet artillery (that number comes from the Soviet Army's evaluation of WWII tactics done in the 50s and 60s). It was so effective that their current doctrine has a battery of 6 152mm SP Howitzers combining with a tank platoon and a mechanized infantry company as the leading elements right behind their recon units.

The Axis and Western Allies relied on the indirect fire tactics more, with the Americans developing the TOT (time on target) concept utilizing up to 120 tubes of various artillery types at the same time. Many of the US WWII infantry company commanders felt like their job was to protect the forward observers so that the artillery was accurately used to destroy the enemy forces.
Hi Carlkay58
I understand Regimental guns can be LOS guns but not necessarily.
Heavily Armoured SP assault howitzers are clearly front line units I'm talking about artillery batteries (with radios and spotters).

OK then, of the remaining soviet artillery
What proportion do you think fired directly and what proportion fired indirectly?
Did the Soviet artillery 'divisions' fire directly?
How about Soviet Mortar and Rocket batteries? what proportion of these units fired directly or indirectly?
Are you saying that the game shouldn't bother trying to model indirect fire weapons correctly?
Best Regards Chuck
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chuckfourth
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RE: The core problem with WitE+

Post by chuckfourth »

Hi Aurelian
A passage from your second quote, about Soviet artillery doctrine

"Indirect Fire

The (Soviet) artillery fired indirectly to prepare the way for an assault, to bring down defensive walls of fire in front
of Soviet troops under attack, as well firing in counter-battery roles to destroy enemy artillery"

OK so my question to you is even if as you say the Soviets had a "Direct fire was the doctrine" some proportion of their artillery fired indirectly
what do you think that proportion was?

Also if there was in fact a lot of soviet Heavy artillery up front then all the more reason to model indirect Artillery fire correctly
The Germans certainly didn't and so shouldn't be getting the higher artillery casualties which your Soviets front line gunners should be getting.
Personally I doubt it but if appreciable numbers of Soviet divisional or Corps artillery is in fact deployed in the
front line then this is a clear difference between German and Russian ignored by the combat engine.
Best Regards Chuck.
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