Tanks & Infantry in same hex

schmoe · Post by **schmoe** » Thu Jun 08, 2000 3:48 pm

I was a tanker, and I have a few observations.

1. Tanks back up up a lot in combat. It isn't a good idea to be behind one when it does that. They can't see you if they are buttoned up, and sometimes they are in a hurry. By the way WB, that is something glaringly missing. Tanks have to turn around to move back in this game, making them easy targets. Not sure if it's possible to fix, though.

2. In Vietnam, they tended to be rpg magnets. Being close to an rpg when it goes off is kinda like being close to a grenade. They often didn't penetrate the tank, but it wasn't pleasant for anyone nearby. IMHO that would also be the case if a conventional AT round hit ... hundreds of itsy bitsy pieces of armor and projectile flying about whether it penetrates or not. Not as bad as an rpg, but not good.

3. Tanks were sometimes used to lead convoys. There were several reasons for this, but one was that if a tank runs over a mine the blast usually won't penetrate the crew compartment, whereas an apc or a Sheridan have less protection ... better to just sit on top in any case ...

Arralen · Post by **Arralen** » Thu Jun 08, 2000 5:42 pm

I was a tanker, and I have a few observations.

I was a Panzergrenadier, and have some observation, too

- and as far as SPWaW is concerned, I have some stories I heard from those involved in the fighting...

1. Tanks back up up a lot in combat. It isn't a good idea to be behind one when it does that. They can't see you if they are buttoned up, and sometimes they are in a hurry.

But modern tanks are MUCH faster than the WW2 ones ... especially "offroad".
I wholeheartly agree that it's really healthier to stay about 20 meters away from a moving Leopard / Abrams, if not more

Think you won't have much problems getting out of the way of a Sherman if it first crawls forward with 10 km/h, stopps and "hurries" backwards with 15 km/h .. or am I completely wrong here?

By the way WB, that is something glaringly missing. Tanks have to turn around to move back in this game, making them easy targets. Not sure if it's possible to fix, though.

I would really be glad to see this in the game - together with movement-point cost for turning the hull (right click) - maybe even for turning the turret (targetting with "F").

2. In Vietnam, they tended to be rpg magnets. Being close to an rpg when it goes off is kinda like being close to a grenade. They often didn't penetrate the tank, but it wasn't pleasant for anyone nearby. IMHO that would also be the case if a conventional AT round hit ... hundreds of itsy bitsy pieces of armor and projectile flying about whether it penetrates or not. Not as bad as an rpg, but not good.

But fighting in Vietnam was a bit different from that in Europe - if the tank in front of you was hit by a Panzerfaust / Bazooka, most likely you already where "going nose-down in the mud" because an MG open up upon you at the same moment

- at least that's what the stories I heard suggest ..
The "hide behind your tank"-tactic was applied mostly (if at all) when combined forces where to advance against infantery over long open ranges - better hiding behind a tank than having no cover at all .. and the tank won't back up much in such situations as well, as this wouldn't get him into cover as well.

But this is from stories I heard years ago, and may not be accurate from faulty memory etc.

Arralen

schmoe · Post by **schmoe** » Thu Jun 08, 2000 7:08 pm

Arralen, I mostly agree with what you say. Where backing up is concerned, I was thinking about guys who are crouched right behind your tracks, which gives them very little reaction time. That happened a lot in Hue where you would have 10 or more guys hugging the tank as it moved slowly down a street. That actually works well at times, but in those situations it was worked out ahead of time and the tankers knew they couldn't back up. Of course if you start taking RPGs and the driver panics ...

The last I heard, M1's ONLY carried sabot, so they wouldn't be much use in a city fight. I bet that would change quickly if we did much urban fighting, though.

Larry Holt · Post by **Larry Holt** » Thu Jun 08, 2000 7:41 pm

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
Here are the Test results - Verdict.
More infantry casualties without a tank in the hex than with one in the hex.

I'll be happy to send this test to anyone who wants it.

billw@thegamers.net
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I put Panzerschreck, German Squad and ATG each 4 hexes from a Sherman with a squad mounted on it. (total of three shermans and 3 squads, one for each German unit).
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Wild Bill

Bill, I think that you got the results you did based on the 4 hex range. At that range the rifles and MG are very accurate. I've seen the "more inf casualities when shooting at tanks" issue at longer ranges (15 hexes or so) I'll have to wait until tonight to test my theroy.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.