Unplayable?

AGEOD’S American Civil War - The Blue and the Gray is a historical operational strategy game with a simultaneous turn-based engine (WEGO system) that places players at the head of the USA or CSA during the American Civil War (1861-1865).

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JReb
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by JReb »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

... but almost everyone plays UV/WitP PBEM.

Just wondering how you determined that. I have never played WitP PBEM because it would seem to take too long to reach the end. Has anyone actually finished a PBEM from 1941 to 1945? How long did it take them, 2-3 years?

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RE: Unplayable?

Post by decaro »

You're the exception to the rule; almost everyone complains re WitP's AI, so they play PBEM, at least according to what's said on its forum.

As to how long it takes to actually finish a PBEM of WitP from 41-45, try posting this query on its forum; frankly, I don't think it's ever been done before.

WitP PBEM turns can take so long that some play UV between turns, so it's difficult to compare these games with AACW/BoA. At least I can finish AGEOD games within a week or two.





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RE: Unplayable?

Post by Sardonic »

I cant see how anyone that has waded thru the first turn of WitP as the Japanese, could possibly say
ACW was complex.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by Gem35 »

Wargames like these are an exception to the rule. You can say Age of Empires or Medieval total war series are complex. Sure but the real grognards agree AACW and WitP are where it is all at. Give them a look and you may be surprised you are spending countless precious hours of your time enjoying these classics.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by PDiFolco »

AACW is 10 times less complex than UV (did'nt try WitP) ! You really don't need a PhD to form armies, make them marching around, then fighting, levy some troops, raise funds ...
What beffudles some of you so much ? [&:]

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RE: Unplayable?

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
AACW is 10 times less complex than UV (did'nt try WitP) ! ...
What beffudles some of you so much ? [&:]

I don't know; I still think comparing these games is apples and oranges.

Just compare loading troops and supplies unto ships in AACW/BoA w/WitP/UV. How many times have you tried to load entire divisions w/its supplies on a Grigsby fleet w/o having to repeat the process/trip several times in order to get the whole unit(s) where you need it?

Another strategy is to load lone transports in single TFs one at a time, and then combine them; time consuming!

In BoA, either all the army/artillery/wagons load on the fleet, or it doesn't; if it doesn't , keep the units you really need and then start removing the ones you don't until you're good to go, then go. It's that easy.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by MrBoats »

Well,

I formed a transport TF in WITP this morning with a sufficient number of AP's, selected the division to load and clicked on the appropriate command. The extra space on the TF was automatically loaded with supplies. I set the destination with another mouse click. Pretty simple. Just about the same amount of time it took me to form a fleet in AACW, form a division to be transported, drag and drop the division onto the fleet and drag the fleet all the way across the map to its destination.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by madgamer2 »

There is a tutorial of sorts in WitP and it is worth a look. I am glad to see your going to try again as it is worth the time. Do make sure you have all the patch's and updates installed. It really is a great game. I keep thinking that If Gary G. applies his usual attention to detail to his up coming American Civil War game......just think...A Civil War Game with detail like WitP....a very scary fantastic thought indeed.

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RE: Unplayable?

Post by madgamer2 »


[quote]ORIGINAL: Joe D.

OK, but complexity and depth are generalizations that could easilly be applied to many games. How exactly are these games alike?

Compare AI; BoA plays like a chess computer, but almost everyone plays UV/WitP PBEM. What does that tell you?

As for learning curve, it took much longer for me to "master" UV than BoA, even though AGEOD immediately produced a series of patches after BoA's release that completely changed its logistics (v1.12/1.12a), compelling me to relearn BoA several times over. Still, BoA/AACW is still much less confusing/frustrating than UV/WitP, at least according to the player posts in their forums.

But if you don't buy that, just compare these game's manuals; hard copies vs. (lengthy) pdfs!

And aside from the software, AGEOD -- a relatively new company -- responds quickly to game questions, which is more than I can say for Matrix; it's rare when Wood et al grace the UV/WiTP forums, whereas POCUS seems almost omnipresent by comparison.


Why do they have to be similar to be compared in a general way? Above what MrBoats said they are both ground breaking games. There could never be a better Pacific War game than WitP and in its own way AACW is a ground breaking game on the ACW. Both are strategic level games and both use a system that is like no other game of there type.
Lastly for gamers of either period they offer a game situation that has depth and is a challenge to play

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RE: Unplayable?

Post by decaro »

It's still easier to load several arimes w/wagons and artillery in AGEOD games than loading multiple divisions in UV/WitP TFs.

And I don't even want to think about those load/unload pdf files.

In AGEOD, I have more control over loading, unloading and -- if I change my mind -- rearranging them all via drag and drop.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by decaro »

Kindly read the other posts; I'm not the only player having a hard time believing that AACW/BoA is as complex/complicated to play as WitP/UV.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by madgamer2 »

To Joe D I would say that perhaps complexity is more a state of one's mind than hard true fact. I know some folks who find a game like WitP to me not vary complex at all. A game like WitP has great depth and many factors and things that one must do each turn or 2 (depending on how often you stop to give orders)before you push that end turn button.
There is to my way of thinking not a great deal of game innovation in WitP but a great deal of detail handled by routines that are not that much state of the art, so to speak. Its not so much the game mechanic's that make it complex but rather the shear number of things going on in the game itself that make it that way. It is the way the game is designed that makes it complex but still allow one to be play it.
it WitP I finf that one can play a great bit of history such as the war in the pacific without becoming totally weighted down by it makes it such a great game experience.
To me it is large...yes. deep...yes, hard....perhaps but complex by its size and scope. You do what you need to do and just start it in motion and marvel at how it works...kind of like life. I don't worry about the small stuff like the best altitude for a particular aircraft or the best way to do something in the game. I do it and if it doesn't work I try something else kind of like life (OOPS I daid that already :-) )

So in the end complex is more to do with the way we see something rather than it being a fact. What I see as complex someone else may not. All games that are greater than a certain level to me are complex and require a longer learning curve for me. For someone else it might be be games I find complex they might find easy.

Well enough rambling on here I most likely have you (and myself) a bit confused. I write stuff like this all the time just for fun. :-).

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RE: Unplayable?

Post by MrBoats »

Madgamer,

Amen! I think that WITP is as much about logistics as strategy, and once you get your logistics straightened out in the first few months things run pretty smoothly. There are "spikes" of activity when you prepare for invasions or for major raids, but most turns require a relatively small amount of player activity. I think AACW requires more attention per turn, especially if the naval operations are at full realism setting. Just managing the Anaconda Plan is a game in itself. And I love AACW all the more for it! A micromanager's dream!

I hope Gary G's game is released this year, and I imagine it will be pretty "complex" as well! I would like to have a CW game with a hex-grid map and a tactical battle option. HPS's games are excellent, but they are, of course, limited in scope. But AACW is just fine as it is, and I can see myself playing it for years to come.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by decaro »

Game difficulty is not just a state of mind; you can objectively gauge the (relative) complexity of different games by comparing the size of their manuals, assuming that a more difficult/complicated game requires more explanation.

The following is a post from the UV forum re whether or not to "upgrade" to WitP, and how it compared w/UV:

Another measure that can be used to determien(sic) the depth of the game is to look at the size of the manuals for the games:

UV - 70 pages
WPO - 165 pages
WITP - 220 pages


My original manual for BoA comes in at only 28 pages, which makes it the least complicated of the above, relatively speaking. You can put in the number of pages for AACW; I assume it's more than BoA, but much less than the others.

As I said when I entered this thread, I don't yet own AACW. But if it really is a "micromanager's dream" as MrBoats claims, then I won't be buying it.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by Joram »

I agree the blockade is a bit tedious and requires micromanagement but other than that, I don't think it's a hard game to get into at all.  But as madgamer said, it's really about who you are.  People will always find different things complex and easy.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by MrBoats »

Joe D.,

I didn't mean to put you off buying AACW -- I may have overstated the micromanagement in the game. I was thinking of the naval operations, which can be adjusted to the player's liking. If you play at full realism there's a lot of management involved. But I enjoy the hell out of AACW and I recommend it highly. It's probably best with a human opponent, but the AI is aggressive and takes advantage of human mistakes (just like Lee and Jackson[;)]).

I do believe AGEOD shortened the manual as time went by, and the newer version is a lot better. The tooltips are a great feature, as well, and I wish WITP and/or UV had them.

In short, AACW = great value for the price. (For that matter, so was UFO:ET -- I played that one obsessively for several weeks!)

Thanks for your posts -- this has been a good thread.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by decaro »

You're welcome, although there were times I thought you guys were jerking me around about AACW being as hard as WitP (or UV).

UV vs. WitP has been an ongoing thread in their respective forums for some time; although they share the same engine, gamers say they play very differently.

I have yet to see a BoA vs. AACW post; BoA Gold was supposed to be a purchased upgrade that incorporated AACW features, but that hasn't happened (yet).

Then again, maybe AGEOD should leave well enough alone.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by MrBoats »

No jerking here! I enjoy a good discussion and this has been one.

I used to take a break from WITP by playing UV -- UV is WITP at about 1/10 scale. I've had some really satisfying UV campaigns and I've had my clock cleaned too many times as the US commander. One good thing is that I finally have a desktop and laptop that are powerful enough to run through a full WITP turn in two minutes

AACW took me forever to get a handle on, largely because I jumped into it before digesting the manual. I've had BOA since the release but never got into it -- I think I'll update it and give it another shot. I've been reading "Almost a Miracle" and it has me craving a good Revolution wargame.
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RE: Unplayable?

Post by decaro »

If you're going to go back into BoA, be sure to download the new v 1.09 manual from the "Important: useful links" posting on top of its forum; apparently, as w/AACW, the first translation of French into English left something to be desired.

tm.asp?m=1328204
Improved Game PDF Manual (available for your review)

Be advised BoA under 1.12/.12a is a very different game then when first released; supply restrictions are now strictly enforced, which means the Brit AI can't juggernaut w/large armies over New England because it can't supply such large forces for long w/o attrition penalties, esp. in winter as was the case historically.

Finally, I just learned the hard way that if you use naval guns to make a (land) fort, you can't shot back at ships, which is crucial when being bombarded by the Brit fleet vs. NYC and other key ports.

Good gaming.

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RE: Unplayable?

Post by Grotius »

I love all three games mentioned -- FoF, AACW, WiTP -- but I think WiTP is far more complex than either of the other two. AACW may be a bit more complex than FoF, but on the other hand, FoF has tactical battles, which add a different sort of complexity. I do agree that AACW has some of the "epic" feel of WiTP.

Also, take what you read in the WiTP forums with a grain of salt. My guess is that the majority of players never post there, and a fair number of them -- maybe a silent majority -- play the AI. I've played WiTP and UV with PBEM, but I've probably spent more time playing the AI. It gives you an OK game if you play historically, and it doesn't quit -- or expect you to play out a game that has become tedious or dull.
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